Mobile and the Future of Second Life

[Coffee Pancake]

12 hours ago, animats said:

The social features of SL will have to be more like what people expect from social systems.

I really hope LL don't neglect social aspects.

SL should not be a solo passtime, especially on mobile.

[Ardy Lay]

Yay!  One more very engrossing thing for drivers to be doing with phones in their faces while running down us pedestrians.

[Arielle Popstar]

1 hour ago, Coffee Pancake said:

I really hope LL don't neglect social aspects.

SL should not be a solo passtime, especially on mobile.

In my own experience with mobile on SL there was an increase of social because of the speech to text capability. Consider too that with Android at least there should be no limit access to translation services from Google that should be capable of being tied to local as well as IM.

[animats]

Speech to text and text to speech can be done well, locally. Mobile should definitely have that. There isn't enough screen space for the SL world and the keyboard.

Edited March 17, 2023 by animats

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, Ardy Lay said:

Yay!  One more very engrossing thing for drivers to be doing with phones in their faces while running down us pedestrians.

They will probably be driving cars in SL, on their phones, while driving cars in FL/RL..

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, animats said:

Speech to text and text to speech can be done well, locally. Mobile should definitely have that. There isn't enough screen space for the SL world and the keyboard.

Plus, just "voice"! Phones.

[Arielle Popstar]

On 3/16/2023 at 10:12 AM, Zalificent Corvinus said:

My inventory is at about 71k, I don't have a problem finding stuff, because I sort as I buy, always have.

If YOU, or some other old account didn't  BOTHER sorting  your stuff as you  obtained it,  that is clearly a YOU problem, not a ME problem or an SL problem.

And how large the problem is, depends on YOU.

It is an SL problem in that any other app of the S/L viewer size would have included a file manager of some sort that would push a user to specify where the unpacked file or folder should go instead of just default dumping it at the bottom of the system folders. Then as we seen recently, they had to come up with a script that fixes those inventories that exceeded 5000 items on one level because of TP issues, which wouldn't have been needed had they done it properly to this century's sort of standards in the first place. 

Just imagine how much simpler it would be too if one could just r-click a folder and send it to the appropriate system or user generated folder instead of relying on a drag and drop method that is highly prone to errors as well as time consuming.

[Rowan Amore]

20 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

It is an SL problem in that any other app of the S/L viewer size would have included a file manager of some sort that would push a user to specify where the unpacked file or folder should go instead of just default dumping it at the bottom of the system folders. Then as we seen recently, they had to come up with a script that fixes those inventories that exceeded 5000 items on one level because of TP issues, which wouldn't have been needed had they done it properly to this century's sort of standards in the first place. 

Just imagine how much simpler it would be too if one could just r-click a folder and send it to the appropriate system or user generated folder instead of relying on a drag and drop method that is highly prone to errors as well as time consuming.

They managed to do.this with Landmarks.  You can sort them when created into your Favorites folder.

[Ardy Lay]

3 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

It is an SL problem in that any other app of the S/L viewer size would have included a file manager of some sort that would push a user to specify where the unpacked file or folder should go instead of just default dumping it at the bottom of the system folders. Then as we seen recently, they had to come up with a script that fixes those inventories that exceeded 5000 items on one level because of TP issues, which wouldn't have been needed had they done it properly to this century's sort of standards in the first place. 

Just imagine how much simpler it would be too if one could just r-click a folder and send it to the appropriate system or user generated folder instead of relying on a drag and drop method that is highly prone to errors as well as time consuming.

You mean that's not the Downloads folder?  Huh.  Oh, there is this thing called "Received items", but I suppose that doesn't count.

Oh, yeah.  Being able to right-click on an object or folder to move it to another...  hmm.  There is "Create folder from selected" but I have never used that.

OKAY.  Now I have used it.  Not happy.  Looks like I lost stuff and will have to relog or something to be sure.

WHEW!  Those three items are visible after a re-log.  DAMMIT LL!  Stop that!

At least cut and paste doesn't make things magically disappear.

Edited March 17, 2023 by Ardy Lay

[Drayke Newall]

12 hours ago, EliseAnne85 said:

Thinking more about this, Drayke, if LL takes away the ability for an object to keep it's original name, how would they be able to pull items that are DMCA'd?  I think the original name would have to stay and an additional line added so the OWNER could name the item a second name of their choice.  Then, a choice added in search to search either by Legacy name or Owner name.  

Linden Lab dont track the name at all for such purposes for reasons Qie mentioned. The name is only relevant for the identification of the object in the inventory of the creator/owner and system prompts, etc.

All objects and avatars in Second Life are assigned a unique Asset UUID (refer here: UUID - Second Life Wiki ) and it is this that LL ban/remove it by.

12 hours ago, EliseAnne85 said:

However, in my other post where I said prioritize.  Your response to that, Drayke, seemed to me you were saying prioritizing won't work, but rather what a mobile viewer needs is new ways of doing things that are simplified.  So, the focus then should be on simplification rather than prioritizing.  There are a lot of features in FS that many never use.  I think it needs to be stripped down to what people use the most and really need, and what is just there taking up space that is hardly ever used, be left out altogether.  I still think prioritize is a very important factor. 

Prioritising and simplifying can go hand in hand. LL need to prioritise what is important and from that simplify the mobile viewer to ensure that whilst simplified it doesn't detract from a persons use, retention and Second Life requirements.

Take for example the build menu. Everything in that cannot be prioritised as all of the functions it contains are needed to build effectively. That said, if LL want building using prims to be part of the mobile viewer, they cannot use the same build menu as fingers on a mobile will not be able to select the right option. This then means that LL can either simplify the ui, simplify building with prims, introduce new building mechanics or leave building to the desktop viewer and allow item rezing and placement of items in the viewer only.

This means that in this case LL need to prioritise what they want in the mobile viewer (i.e. only rez and placement) however from there, need to simplify those commands to ensure that they work and have ease of use in the mobile viewer.

This is how for example Roblox do things. They have the program everyone downloads on PC, console and mobile to 'play' Roblox environments, however, they also have a PC only program called studio that is used to create those environments.

Avatar customisation however is different. Everything that involves avatar customisation would be needed for a Mobile Viewer to be successful. They cannot prioritise x feature over y and therefore have only one option, keep everything but alter the UI and avatar customisation to function better than we have now.

There is a use for both prioritising and simplifying (dont like that word as making something easier to use with a better ui isn't simplifying). It just that sometimes and in most cases with Second Life you cannot prioritise.

Edited March 18, 2023 by Drayke Newall

[Ardy Lay]

2 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

Linden Lab dont track the name at all for such purposes for reasons Qie mentioned. The name is only relevant for the identification of the object in the inventory of the creator/owner and system prompts, etc.

All objects and avatars in Second Life are assigned a unique Asset UUID (refer here: UUID - Second Life Wiki ) and it is this that LL ban/remove it by.

Prioritising and simplifying can go hand in hand. LL need to prioritise what is important and from that simplify the mobile viewer to ensure that whilst simplified it doesn't detract from a persons use, retention and Second Life requirements.

Take for example the build menu. Everything in that cannot be prioritised as all of the functions it contains are needed to build effectively. That said, if LL want building using prims to be part of the mobile viewer, they cannot use the same build menu as fingers on a mobile will not be able to select the right option. This then means that LL can either simplify the ui, simplify building with prims, introduce new building mechanics or leave building to the desktop viewer and allow item rezing and placement of items in the viewer only.

This means that in this case LL need to prioritise what they want in the mobile viewer (i.e. only rez and placement) however from there, need to simplify those commands to ensure that they work and have ease of use in the mobile viewer.

This is how for example Roblox do things. They have the program everyone downloads on PC, console and mobile to 'play' Roblox environments, however, they also have a PC only program called studio that is used to create those environments.

Avatar customisation however is different. Everything that involves avatar customisation would be needed for a Mobile Viewer to be successful. They cannot prioritise x feature over y and therefore have only one option, keep everything but alter the UI and avatar customisation to function better than we have now.

There is a use for both prioritising and simplifying (dont like that word as making something easier to use with a better ui isn't simplifying). It just that sometimes and in most cases with Second Life you cannot prioritise.

Heh, I agree with all that, apparently.  But, I keep having visions of phones with peripherals grafted to them to enable users to do the creative stuff!

[Qie Niangao]

13 hours ago, animats said:

Speech to text and text to speech can be done well, locally. Mobile should definitely have that. There isn't enough screen space for the SL world and the keyboard.

Speech will be an important medium, but mobile users won't rely on it exclusively. Fortunately, mobile users are also adept at using their favorite keyboards (I'm addicted to Gboard), presented just when they need to text. People will use mobile viewers in settings where voice input isn't an option, if anything more frequently than for desktop viewers, because mobile devices are used everywhere.

[EliseAnne85]

17 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

All objects and avatars in Second Life are assigned a unique Asset UUID (refer here: UUID - Second Life Wiki ) and it is this that LL ban/remove it by.

Yeah, I figured that it would have to be UUID then.  

Thanks for clarification.  

Being able to rename items has been high on residents lists of 'would love to haves' for a very long time.  

[SarahKB7 Koskinen]

Found this old "SL Go" promotional ad...

Edited March 23, 2023 by SarahKB7 Koskinen

[Love Zhaoying]

On 3/10/2023 at 1:14 PM, diamond Marchant said:

Is Linden Lab back in the metaverse sweepstakes?

Heard on the news today that part of Disney's 7000 person layoff will be workers who were on their Metaverse project.  So between that, and Zuckerberg's shift in focus (to AI), the sweepstakes as fewer and fewer entrants.

[Sid Nagy]

SL type worlds will not easily become mainstream, because the lack of broad (commercial) usability.
The Metaverse buzz is cooling down again already.

The only thing that LL can do IMHO is focus on people that are no customers yet, but are potential customers for the niche market of sandbox worlds like SL.
Presence on the phone and tablet could help. That is where most people are on the Internet to entertain themselves these days.
 

Edited March 29, 2023 by Sid Nagy

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Sid Nagy said:

SL type worlds will not easily become mainstream, because the lack of broad (commercial) usability.
The only thing that LL can do IMHO is focus on people that are no customers yet, but are potential customers for the niche market of sandbox worlds like SL.
Presence on the phone and tablet could help. That is where most people are on the Internet to entertain themselves these days.
 

I think, that unless LL does some really bad marketing, there will be a boost because the Metaverse is in the news so much.  Kind of like when SL was newer - but now it's all about "other", "new" Metaverses. Which are all failing to even start.

So, I have hopes this Mobile venture will result in..something.

[Flea Yatsenko]

11 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I think, that unless LL does some really bad marketing, there will be a boost because the Metaverse is in the news so much.  Kind of like when SL was newer - but now it's all about "other", "new" Metaverses. Which are all failing to even start.

So, I have hopes this Mobile venture will result in..something.

I can't imagine it not being successful unless LL really drops the ball somewhere. Mobile users are so valuable when it comes to this stuff because people pull out their phones when they're bored doing something else, i.e. waiting in a line, waiting for food, on a long car ride, etc. They don't actively seek out and say "I'm going to hop on my phone and play games and browse the internet for an hour", they usually do it when they're doing something else.

Desktop/laptop users are more like, "alright, I'm going to sit in front of my computer and drop everything to play a game/go on SL/etc." Big difference in how often people want to get on.

VR/metaverse is an even larger commitment to get into. If you have a wired unit, you have to clear your play area, set up the software on your PC, then strap the whole thing on your head. It's a huge pain. Oculus tried to make it more convenient but every time want to play you end up moving most of the room around unless you just want to sit and play. I have a Quest, some of the games are really cool, VR Chat can be fun. But VR is a 100% commitment. I can log into SL to be social and work on unrelated programming projects, blender, etc. VR is 100% commitment to playing VR. Which is what I think is a major reason why metaverse failed. I'm logged in to SL now, if I was in VR I couldn't also be on this forum reading and writing. I'd be 100% in SL and unable to multitask.

People like to show off, as long as the AV editor is great and people can make a half way decent AV without spending $50 (possible with NUX) they will stay, and if they stay and enjoy themselves they'll eventually want to stand out more by not having the "noob avatar" (no matter how good it is, just because it's so easy to get people will probably view it that way).

I'd even argue the AV creator is one of, if not the most important part of making mobile SL a success. That and making the AVs look good and functional, which is what they are focusing on right now, which is a really good sign they're doing what needs to be done to make mobile SL successful.

[Love Zhaoying]

Since I mostly login for Scripting, I am not sure how / if Mobile will benefit me.

 

[Sid Nagy]

The mobile viewer will almost certainly never be the right solution for everything one can do in SL.

Building, creating, avatar customization and such things will be something for a desktop browser for a long time to come. No doubt about that.
On the other hand shopping, sightseeing, dancing the night away and chatting could have a future in the phone/tablet app in my view.

[Rolig Loon]

1 minute ago, Sid Nagy said:

The mobile viewer will almost certainly never be the right solution for everything one can do in SL.

Building, creating, avatar customization and such things will be something for a desktop browser for a long time to come. No doubt about that.
On the other hand shopping, sightseeing, dancing the night away and chatting could have a future in the phone/tablet app in my view.

Yes.  There are many ways to experience SL, not all of which require you to use the full resources of a computer and a large screen. Like @Love Zhaoying, I would have a very hard time using a mobile version of the viewer for the scripting and other creative tasks I spend most of my inworld time on. A mobile app could be really handy when I am traveling, though, or if I found myself isolated and away from my computer.  For me, a mobile version would be a welcomed emergency backup.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

1 minute ago, Sid Nagy said:

The mobile viewer will almost certainly never be the right solution for everything one can do in SL.

Building, creating, avatar customization and such things will be something for a desktop browser for a long time to come. No doubt about that.
On the other hand shopping, sightseeing, dancing the night away and chatting could have a future in the phone/tablet app in my view.

I dunno. I wouldn't want to shop on mobile, either. Grabbing demos, tping home to try them on, digging through my Recent tab to unpack, trying on the demo itself, checking it with other clothing pieces or shoes or ears or whatever it'll affect to look for obvious glitches or poor fits or overlapping mesh or alpha clashes or...etc., tping back to the store, finding the item again because by that time, I've forgotten where in the store I found the dang thing, completing the purchase, etc.

That's sometimes worse when shopping for furniture and decor - running back and forth between the store and home to see if things will fit my space, snapping pics to check for matching colors/textures, etc. Doing that on PC is a pain enough as it is. 😄

[Rolig Loon]

3 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

I dunno. I wouldn't want to shop on mobile, either.

I agree. I don't spend much time shopping, but when I do I at least want my full-size monitor screen. I don't really need the desktop for dancing, chatting, or sorting inventory, though.  In a pinch, I could do those things on my phone or a tablet. My guess is that there are plenty of SL residents who rarely do anything else or who are casual visitors.  If nothing else, a mobile version would be an easy, cheap way to try out SL until you are addicted sure that it's time to take the training wheels off.

[Love Zhaoying]

I think by necessity, "wise" creators will need to test their clothing, scripts, etc. on the mobile client, just in case tweaks are needed for things to look/work right. 
ETA: That way, at least creators are already aware when complaints come in.

Edited March 29, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[Arielle Popstar]

16 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

I dunno. I wouldn't want to shop on mobile, either. Grabbing demos, tping home to try them on, digging through my Recent tab to unpack, trying on the demo itself, checking it with other clothing pieces or shoes or ears or whatever it'll affect to look for obvious glitches or poor fits or overlapping mesh or alpha clashes or...etc., tping back to the store, finding the item again because by that time, I've forgotten where in the store I found the dang thing, completing the purchase, etc.

That's sometimes worse when shopping for furniture and decor - running back and forth between the store and home to see if things will fit my space, snapping pics to check for matching colors/textures, etc. Doing that on PC is a pain enough as it is. 😄

Under the way it is currently done I agree but it is more than possible to do the whole process much more efficiently that the current implementations wherein one would demo clothing in a window where the parts are not automatically put in inventory and are just temporary until actually purchased.