Is this yellow face?

[Mark Sparkle]

Browsing the SL side of Flickr and seeing this made me start thinking. It's not uncommon in SL for people to make avatars that do not match their own race. The global appreciation of KPOP music has a lot of KPOP stans flocking to Mudskin to create avatars that look like their favourite KPOP idols for example. In my head I think this is fine, but then I see this post on Flickr and my brain says "thats yellowface". Then I wonder but what is it when your avatar wears a skin that does match your RL race? Are both not okay or is this flickr post different?

Just wondering out loud if you can be considered doing yellowface when everything is virtual?

PS I love the content of this Flickr user. They make fun and super realistic images that I enjoy. It's just this last post they did that made my brain thinking all these thoughts.

PPS You might need to see their other photo's on Flickr to get the context.

Edited January 10, 2023 by Mark Sparkle
PPS You might need to see their other photo's on Flickr to get the context.

[Lewis Luminos]

I think a question like this is for people who are East Asian in RL to answer.

One of my alts is Indian (as in, from India, not Native American). I've spoken with people (inworld and in RL) who are Indian in RL and they have varied in their opinions from "it's fine" to gushing enthusiasm about the appreciation I have for their culture.

I know that certain other races (Native American in particular) are much less comfortable about sharing, and portraying your avatar as Native American without any RL cultural claim is probbaly in very bad taste. I don't know what the consensus is amongst people who are East Asian in RL, maybe some of them will comment here?

What I am pretty sure of is that a person who is not East Asian in RL has no right to decide what is yellowface and what isn't.

A question for you though - is it acceptable for a RL artist (a painter for example) to paint a portrait of a person who is not of the same race as themselves? Your answer to that question should also answer your question about this Flickr post.

Edited January 10, 2023 by Lewis Luminos

[Stephanie Misfit]

Not sure why you are singling out that Flickr user in particular by linking to their photostream. Lots of people do this.

[Orwar]

   Unless a person shares RL pictures (which, you can't really verify to really be them anyway), we don't necessarily know what ethnicity a person behind any given avatar is, so I don't see much point in being bothered about it. 

   I see nothing in that particular picture which strikes me as an offensive stereotype.

   Furthermore, no one person has the authority to speak for the entirety of their ethnicity, so there's not really anyone who can conclusively declare something to be 'OK' or 'not OK' - as Lewis mentioned about his Indian avatar; opinions are likely to vary within the people it concerns anyway. 

   Should people of ethnicity X be banned from painting/drawing characters of ethnicity Y? Is the liberty to be inclusive in one's creative pursuits an issue of how morally superior the creator is? The world is much too nuanced for any definitive rules that are universally applicable.

[Rowan Amore]

Not sure where it says you must use the ethnicity, sex, species, etc you are in RL in order to play SL or to not offend anyone.  Was that in the small print somewhere?

 

[Modulated]

It's an avatar, its not that serious.

 

[Ayashe Ninetails]

You're going to get a wide variety of answers on this. As for my answer, I generally avoid the issue altogether and stick to my own race (except early in my SL history, when that was difficult to do because darker skins absolutely sucked and I had to wear a few tones lighter - nowadays, I'm fortunate to have a lot of choice in my actual skin tone). Though to be fair, I currently spend about 98% of my time as a fantasy creature or something else, and do whatever the heck I want with that (usually, I'm pink or green or orange or purple or something).

As for what others do, I rarely think about it because who knows who's behind the screen. Though, I can usually tell when someone's trying to cosplay as my race, but I'll just silently laugh and keep it moving. Not my business.

[Rick Nightingale]

I think it's time some people (not implying anything about those here) got over looking for something to be offended about, either for oneself or on the (unasked for) behalf of another.

Otherwise... where does it end? Can I not play a woman, a thin person, a 7-foot giant, a Buddhist... because I'm not really one?

Can I not wear a vyshyvanka because I'm not Ukrainian?

 

Edited January 10, 2023 by Rick Daylight

[Mark Sparkle]

I think the context of my question has not come across well. This person used their original SL skin that is of a white European appearing women (please see their other content for context), and then photoshopped 'Asian' features on to it ( monolid eyes and other small tweaks ). I think also the 'feeling Oriental' title is part of whats making me think yellowface.

I am not asking about what I mention I realize is fairly common of people using SL skins of another race that doesn't match their own - see my KPOP example. 

@Lewis LuminosI get your point, but I think what I am seeing here is not the same, but I bring it up as a topic to check my feeling with what others feel when they compare this persons other flickr photo's to this post. I think there is a difference between painting a character of a specific race, and painting an existing character that appears of a different race and then painting a 'version' of that character as another race.

I am wondering is it Yellowface if you retouch a photo of your SL character that is white, and add 'Asian' traits to make an 'Asian' version of that character - regardless of what race the person is in real life.

Edited January 10, 2023 by Mark Sparkle
added a their

[Marianne Little]

I see a screenshot as a form of art, yes. Instead of painting or sculpting. Hehe, I have avatars that's both male and female, a werewolf too. And I was bored and created couples, just to make looks with them. With dark skin and asian look, with steampunk and fantasy.

So what am I doing when I create an alt with dark skin and put her in a sci-fi set? I do it because I like how it looked. I could have stayed in my pale skin. I did not. I like how she looks. She looks badass.

The next is age? I would not like to create a look with an avatar, that mirror my middelaged body. So in SL I am portraying a slim , young beauty with flawless skin, that can walk all day in high heels. Sometimes the avatar is asian or dark skinned, or blue skin or a wind up doll. Or handsome males, one in steampunk gear, an asian one, a black one...

[Ayashe Ninetails]

3 minutes ago, Mark Sparkle said:

I am wondering is it Yellowface if you retouch a photo of your SL character that is white, and add 'Asian' traits to make an 'Asian' version of that character - regardless of what race the person is in real life.

Admittedly, I didn't click through the photo to Flickr, so I missed the...interesting title and the Photoshopped bit. Yeah no, I wouldn't ever do that or follow someone who did, but I'm not sure how common that is in the first place.

[CaithLynnSayes]

3 minutes ago, Mark Sparkle said:

I think the context of my question has not come across well. This person used her original SL skin that is of a white European appearing women (please see their other content for context), and then photoshopped 'Asian' features on to it ( monolid eyes and other small tweaks ). I think also the 'feeling Oriental' title is part of whats making me think yellowface.

I am not asking about what I mention I realize is fairly common of people using SL skins of another race that doesn't match their own - see my KPOP example. 

@Lewis LuminosI get your point, but I think what I am seeing here is not the same, but I bring it up as a topic to check my feeling with what others feel when they compare this persons other flickr photo's to this post. I think there is a difference between painting a character of a specific race, and painting an existing character that appears of a different race and then painting a 'version' of that character as another race.

I am wondering is it Yellowface if you retouch a photo of your SL character that is white, and add 'Asian' traits to make an 'Asian' version of that character - regardless of what race the person is in real life.

No it isn't. As i said in my previous post. Other cultures appreciate this. It's only Americans that seem to have a problem with it. I am from a different culture and i am flatterend when someone tries to mimic it. Why would i be offended? That's silly.

[Ceka Cianci]

I've always loved her work from the moment I found her flickr awhile back..

She does amazing work and has many different skins she uses..

I think freedom of expression is a human right.. There is no person running around in yellow face.. Just art being made and shared.

[Marianne Little]

4 minutes ago, Mark Sparkle said:

I think the context of my question has not come across well. This person used her original SL skin that is of a white European appearing women (please see their other content for context), and then photoshopped 'Asian' features on to it ( monolid eyes and other small tweaks ). I think also the 'feeling Oriental' title is part of whats making me think yellowface.

I am not asking about what I mention I realize is fairly common of people using SL skins of another race that doesn't match their own - see my KPOP example. 

@Lewis LuminosI get your point, but I think what I am seeing here is not the same, but I bring it up as a topic to check my feeling with what others feel when they compare this persons other flickr photo's to this post. I think there is a difference between painting a character of a specific race, and painting an existing character that appears of a different race and then painting a 'version' of that character as another race.

I am wondering is it Yellowface if you retouch a photo of your SL character that is white, and add 'Asian' traits to make an 'Asian' version of that character - regardless of what race the person is in real life.

The bolded: I wonder how you know? And it can be a lie. Everyone can say: "It is my skin", and use another photo.

I have seen some good makeup videos, where they change look totally with wigs and clothes too. And they also use makeup to look like another race or gender. I think they do it out of fun, just as an creative expression.

To be honest, her pictures with SL skins look better than that. I would have bought a Mudskin or Heaux instead, if I wanted to make an asian look. But it is an unusual idea. Creative.

 

 

 

[Rick Nightingale]

How long has the term 'yellowface' been around? Is it defined in a dictionary, and is that definition the same in everyone's dictionaries? I've never heard it before today, but I guess it's intended to imply a derogatory/demeaning portrail of a race like the obvious origin of [insert some colour here]face.

I certainly don't see that here, and I think the only people who's answers are even relevent are those of the picture's perceived race.

[Mark Sparkle]

9 minutes ago, CaithLynnSayes said:

It's only Americans that seem to have a problem with it.

I'm Filipino in RL so I'm not sure about what you're saying.

[LittleMe Jewell]

18 minutes ago, Mark Sparkle said:

This person used their original SL skin that is of a white European appearing women (please see their other content for context), and then photoshopped 'Asian' features on to it ( monolid eyes and other small tweaks )

How do you know she did that, rather than use Asian skin, head & eye shape, etc???

[Extrude Ragu]

47 minutes ago, Mark Sparkle said:

Just wondering out loud if you can be considered doing yellowface when everything is virtual?

I would argue the term 'yellowface' could be considered the most racist thing in OP's post, as in general I think its fair to say that most from Asia would not like to have their race reduced to 'yellow' -

 

[LittleMe Jewell]

12 minutes ago, CaithLynnSayes said:

It's only Americans that seem to have a problem with it.

Some Americans love to be offended for others, rather than asking others if they actually are offended or not.  

[Rick Nightingale]

I accidentally posted above before I had finished...

I see nothing wrong with someone making what is, in effect, a 'mixed' race picture. Frankly, aren't many (maybe most) of us really that anyway? I'm part indiginous English (whatever that means), Welsh, Romany, and probably all sorts of others knowing what little I do about my ancestry. If I wasn't paranoid about people getting my DNA I would do one of those ancestry tests out of curiosity.

Paint any picture, and someone, somewhere probably looks something like that. Well, unless you paint a purple, six-eyed, two-nosed alien... and I wouldn't put money against that.

Unless it is clearly intended to mock... let's not assume racism where there isn't any intended. Edit: Even then, there is such a thing as humour.

Edited January 10, 2023 by Rick Daylight

[Bree Giffen]

For me, I see everything as a sliding scale, so for cultural appropriation and yellowface I would say the photos on flickr of that user are more innocent rather than malicious. I don't deny that there can be avatars and photos of avatars that could be yellowface/blackface/etc. but it really has to go past a certain point of offensiveness. 

[Rick Nightingale]

4 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Some Americans love to be offended for others, rather than asking others if they actually are offended or not.  

Same in the UK. Seen it for decades.

[Extrude Ragu]

6 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Some Americans love to be offended for others, rather than asking others if they actually are offended or not.  

It's a multi billion dollar industry

[Lewis Luminos]

27 minutes ago, Mark Sparkle said:

I think the context of my question has not come across well. This person used their original SL skin that is of a white European appearing women (please see their other content for context), and then photoshopped 'Asian' features on to it ( monolid eyes and other small tweaks ). I think also the 'feeling Oriental' title is part of whats making me think yellowface.

Does creating an image wholly in SL, with an Asian skin, head and shape, differ from creating one where the features are photoshopped in afterwards? If wearing the skin in SL is different from editing it in Photoshop, why is it different, when it leads to the same result?

The only thing I have certain issue with is the use of the word "oriental" (which doesn't just mean east Asian anyway). That sits about as badly with me as the use of the word "gypsy" to describe the Roma (I have some Romani heritage in RL).

ETA: facepalm moment - the Roma themselves are originally of Indian descent.

Edited January 10, 2023 by Lewis Luminos

[Mark Sparkle]

18 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Admittedly, I didn't click through the photo to Flickr, so I missed the...interesting title and the Photoshopped bit. Yeah no, I wouldn't ever do that or follow someone who did, but I'm not sure how common that is in the first place.

I think I should have been clearer to ask that others look at the persons other work to understand the context of what I was asking. 

Yes, the title of "Feeling oriental" is part of where I'm coming from. It implies the person was making of version of the character they normally post to their flickr.