Requesting an LGBTQ+ sub forum.

[CarlaWetter]

17 pages and people still bring the same tired stuff along which has been answered multiple times.

At least some are arguing their fears more openly, like dragging up the "grooming" bogeyman, the "men in women sports" catastrophe and so much more which, let's face it, has nothing whatsoever to do with establishing another themed forum here. Ah right, having a themed forum requires moderation, segregates around the topic and is generally somewhat wrong. 

Why, oh why has this to be dragged around with such a sudden energy, when the whole set of forums here already impedes all our freedoms by letting us talk within a specified topic, throwing the book at off topic posts. Does a Fashion forum impede the freedoms of the jeans and t-shirt faction? Would the script library forum not discriminate against beginners or writers of bad code? Where do we see flamewars around the proper placement of curly brackets?

This whole 'discussion' here does mainly show one thing, that bigot feelings and bogeymen of culture wars indeed rank so much higher for certain circles than tolerance and acceptance. Which, in my opinion, does absolutely confirm the positive need of the requested LGBTQ+ forum, not to diminish any other minority or perceived majority, but to give this certain collection of minorities another piece of acceptance we allegedly have all over the place.

Whose Safe Space is perceived as endangered here by just suggesting such a forum? Not mine, I know that much.

[Sid Nagy]

21 minutes ago, CarlaWetter said:

17 pages and people still bring the same tired stuff along which has been answered multiple times.

Pot, kettle....
Please don't point at others, because you do exactly the same in this thread.

People are entitled to express their thoughts, further explain what they mean, react to what others say, sometimes shift positions a bit, that's where discussions are for.
Otherwise a voting would be sufficient.
Aye or nay and done.

The 17 pages with little derails or real trolling only shows that it is good to discuss the subject.

Edited April 17, 2022 by Sid Nagy

[Ayashe Ninetails]

2 hours ago, Velk Kerang said:

Well personally I don't care if there is a LGTBQ+ sub-forum or not added. I'm not against it, but let's call it what it is. A place where straight people aren't allowed.

Not sure what you're talking about here. I'm straight and nobody's kicked me out of this thread yet. I seriously highly doubt anyone would kick me out of the sub forum if created, either. 

Note the + in LGBTQ+. There are more identities and orientations included than the shortened acronym. Q can also mean questioning for some, which means they're still exploring and finding out about who they are and where they fit. And there are friends and allies of the community who provide support who I would also hope (though I'll go ahead and be bold enough to assume) will not be kicked out, either. Not only that, but I don't think people without any connection to the community whatsoever would be yeeted either. That's not the goal at all and I'd be disappointed if that happened. All should be welcome.

 

4 hours ago, Extrude Ragu said:

Every corporation on earth now supports LGBTQ+ and flies rainbow banners everywhere. The rainbows basically are the mainstream.

Just going to go ahead and respond to this, too, while I'm here. I don't think any serious person is fooled by corporations flying banners or changing logos or tweeting during June. I find it highly obnoxious when they do it, and I'm sure I'm not alone there. I don't think they're doing anything whatsoever behind the scenes to improve their hiring practices or adjust working conditions and salaries for their marginalized employees. Unless, of course, they've previously made moves to promote the most talented and qualified minorities in the company to the C-suite or Board of Directors when it comes time to make such promotions and additions, that is. Or have established a mentorship program of some sort to help hard-working employees who show promise learn new skills to get there. Then they can fly some flags without a massive eyeroll coming from my general direction.

[Velk Kerang]

11 minutes ago, CarlaWetter said:

17 pages and people still bring the same tired stuff along which has been answered multiple times.

At least some are arguing their fears more openly, like dragging up the "grooming" bogeyman, the "men in women sports" catastrophe and so much more which, let's face it, has nothing whatsoever to do with establishing another themed forum here. Ah right, having a themed forum requires moderation, segregates around the topic and is generally somewhat wrong. 

Why, oh why has this to be dragged around with such a sudden energy, when the whole set of forums here already impedes all our freedoms by letting us talk within a specified topic, throwing the book at off topic posts. Does a Fashion forum impede the freedoms of the jeans and t-shirt faction? Would the script library forum not discriminate against beginners or writers of bad code? Where do we see flamewars around the proper placement of curly brackets?

This whole 'discussion' here does mainly show one thing, that bigot feelings and bogeymen of culture wars indeed rank so much higher for certain circles than tolerance and acceptance. Which, in my opinion, does absolutely confirm the positive need of the requested LGBTQ+ forum, not to diminish any other minority or perceived majority, but to give this certain collection of minorities another piece of acceptance we allegedly have all over the place.

Whose Safe Space is perceived as endangered here by just suggesting such a forum? Not mine, I know that much.

A few fun facts. Grooming bogeyman. Actually a thing. Grooming boogeyman tried pushing up on me when I was a teenager. Grooming bogeyman almost got beat in to the ground by my boss at the time who is gay btw and don't play that mess. So that is an actual thing. lol Don't sit there acting like it ain't. And if you're referring to the parental rights bill passed in Florida, people should absolutely NOT be bringing their personal lives to work and be discussing things above their pay grade with other peoples kids. Period. End of story. That's not even up for debate. So end of discussion on that note.

Side note on the boss man though. He is also one of the reasons I did not have a complete negative outlook on the Gay now called the LGTBQ+ community. So big thanks to him. Gotta give credit where credit is due.👍

Men in women sports. Actually a thing. Legit concerns there too. Transitioning isn't an exact science. If it was that cut, dry, and simple then it would absolutely not be a topic for such heated debates. So until it is it is going to continue to be a heated topic of debate. Women do have legit concerns and they have just as much a right to voice them as anyone else does.

As for the forum section I pretty much stand by what I said. So it's whatever floats peoples boats as far as that goes. Just since you felt the need to throw that little tid bit in there I had to add a few fun facts to it and as we know facts don't care about your feelings. lol🤣

 

13 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Not sure what you're talking about here. I'm straight and nobody's kicked me out of this thread yet. I seriously highly doubt anyone would kick me out of the sub forum if created, either. 

Note the + in LGBTQ+. There are more identities and orientations included than the shortened acronym. Q can also mean questioning for some, which means they're still exploring and finding out about who they are and where they fit. And there are friends and allies of the community who provide support who I would also hope (though I'll go ahead and be bold enough to assume) will not be kicked out, either. Not only that, but I don't think people without any connection to the community whatsoever would be yeeted either. That's not the goal at all and I'd be disappointed if that happened. All should be welcome.

Well I'm not sure what was confusing about what I said actually. It is clear why such a section would be requested. All I did was call BS. Ya, sure you're chatting in this thread. And? You think you or I some how would be welcome and truly accepted in an LGTBQ+ sub-section? Really? You seriously think that? OK I'll play along. Maybe at first, sure. That'd would last right up until the day you or I didn't agree with something that didn't conform to the BS. Then you're labeled a bigot and what ever other vile names people think up. So don't kid yourself and think you're one of the cool kids on the block. You will end up with your feelings hurt. lol You're considered an ally right up until the very minute you don't agree and conform with something. I'm speaking from experience on that one. These forums ain't no better then Twitter. lol🤣

[CarlaWetter]

1 minute ago, Sid Nagy said:

Please don't point at others, because you do exactly the same in this thread.

I do indeed, because that's what this whole mess is by now, new page, old content conveniently ignored, so we bring up the same again and again. I rehash the same arguments because I have to read the same arguments rehashed over and over.

Like the argument chain that the request for the forum requests a special moderation. So the OP rephrases that she'd hope for a sensible, but not elementary different moderation. So we go to the stage that the forum would not work with basically the same moderation and that by this assumption the OP implicitly requests a different moderation, never mind that she did not. That's not an argument, that's just circular repetition of the lack of an argument.

Same goes for the accusation that having a themed forum impedes freedom of expression. Every single themed forum here does exactly that, but that does not seem to be a worry. So what's different here? That answer has not been forthcoming.

And it goes on and on. You can blame me for rehashing my old arguments over and over but it's not my fault when the whole discussion consists of rehashing the same old stuff over and over. Let the loudest stand? Hope for a new page with a different flow. Do we see brain being thrown from the skies? No, we don't. If I see this going in loops I can only rehash the loop. 

But I really should get out of this. So much engagement, so much energy, so many deep human disappointments. I wasn't involving myself here because of some political 'Yay!' impulse of preaching some kind of LGBTQ+ inclusiveness to the world, I was thinking of those who, part of the whole spectrum, have issues facing it, facing themselves, facing a society that tells them they should not exist. That they are wrong, that they are bad. And in too many cases in so called civilised nations, that they can be beaten up, reprogrammed in some mindwashing or being locked up or killed. I'm not locked up, I've not actually been beaten for what I am. I was shouted at, spit at and such because I was different. Gender, skin, religion, place of birth, we find tons of reasons to single 'them' out so that the 'we' can feel being in the right and safely hope that it will be the same tomorrow. I haven't wanted to be me in whatever way that turned out to be. I hated myself, I was staying away from anything LGBTQI++ and whatever you want to include. But in the end I cant't ever not be me. And so can't you, whatever that means to you. Every single one of 'you'. We either tolerate and accept or we banish, spit, forbid, ghettoize and eventually burn what we don't tolerate or accept in ourselves and others.

Happy Easter, Pessach, Ramadan and whatever I forgot as a the evil, hellbound atheist I am. 

[StarlanderGoods]

5 hours ago, Extrude Ragu said:

I'd disagree with you but I honestly can't.

I recall the 'White Lives Matter' Banner being towed by a plane and it was only allowed to be called racist and white supremacist by the people who are supposedly inclusive.

Women who feel excluded from sports now, because men must be allowed to compete with them lest they be called transphobic.

Every corporation on earth now supports LGBTQ+ and flies rainbow banners everywhere. The rainbows basically are the mainstream.

I also notice how the idea of an LGTBQ+ place is advocated as a place for the young and vulnerable, but to me that sounds just ripe for abuse in itself, as the vulnerable are more easily groomed by people who want them to join their group and won't hear a second opinion. The young should simply not be engaging sexually with strangers on the internet, that is between them and their parents. In fact, they should not be on the SecondLife forums to begin with - Isn't there a minimum age requirement to play SecondLife?

I want to give you the benefit of the doubt, because not everyone is extremely online.  The white lives matter, was designed by white nationalists, you know, the people that think that the country they live in should only be for white people.  Some people simply parrot the phrase without knowing it´s origin, but it is, without the shadow of a doubt, extremely racist. You cant ignore why the phrase exists, there is a context to it, just like black lives matter has a context to it too, you should look this things up.

The second point I find very distateful from your post, is the veiled asumption that LGBTQ+ are pedophiles, the rules for content, adult content and age restrictions would be the same as in any other part of the forum.

This are all talking points Ive heard before, from people who are openly racist, homophobic, transphobic, etc.  Im not saying that you are, but you should question yourself, why your views align with theirs, or where did you pick up this biases.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

5 minutes ago, Velk Kerang said:

Well I'm not sure what was confusing about what I said actually. It is clear why such a section would be requested. All I did was call BS. Ya, sure you're chatting in this thread. And? You think you or I some how would be welcome and truly accepted in an LGTBQ+ sub-section? Really? You seriously think that? OK I'll play along. Maybe at first, sure. That'd would last right up until the day you or I didn't agree with something that didn't conform to the BS. Then you're labeled a bigot and what ever other vile names people think up. So don't kid yourself and think you're one of the cool kids on the block. You will end up with your feelings hurt. lol You're considered an ally right up until the very minute you don't agree and conform with something. I'm speaking from experience on that one. These forums ain't no better then Twitter. lol🤣

Not sure why you felt the need to be rude as I was not rude to you, but okay. I'm actually IN the LGBTQ+ community (not solely as an ally), so no, I do not think for one second I run the risk of being labeled a bigot or would be unwelcome in the threads in the sub forum.

As to the rest, I don't engage with rudeness, so I'll see myself out of your replies.

[Luna Bliss]

I participated in a forum for awhile that slanted toward conservatism. I learned a lot there, but it was difficult as I had to realize the faults of my own side which slants very much the other way.

I met a gay man there who at first accused me of virtue signaling when I was very new to the forum, and then apologized when realizing I was genuinely concerned about the plight of oppressed people. He seemed to be against applying any type of force for change in society, and I asked him what he believed were the causes of the generally greater acceptance of sexual and gender deviation in modern times. He believed it was because we changed from the Victorian era and its more prudish nature toward sexuality overall. I wanted to express what I thought the more primary reason was for society changing in my next post but he actually died in RL! (a copy of memorial was presented in the forum, his real life pic and all, and sadness was expressed by many of the forum members who knew him on the forum for years).

I have pondered since then why more conservative members of the LGBTQ+ community just don't seem to get what purchased the relative degree of freedom and acceptance they avail themselves of today. I just don't understand the people who freak out over protests or applying a degree of pressure in an attempt to help others gain freedom -- it's how the world has been made better for so many people! Not interfering with individuals rising to the top doesn't work, as they will always devise ways to take too much of the pie, and they scapegoat those placed at the bottom rungs of society in order to keep themselves at the top.

Imagine if women had never gotten out there in the streets with their protest signs and applied pressure to gain the vote for women - it's possible we couldn't vote even today.  Or what if we found it too difficult to seek a career due to pressure from society to stay in the home and just do 'women's work' as was the case in times past, thereby limiting any amazing contributions out in the world women could have made. But the women's movement got out there and made some major noise to move women toward self-determination and equality.

Imagine if we did not fight to free the slaves and procure greater rights for people of color. Would they still be slaves working the cotton fields or prevented from using the public facilities whites availed themselves of. Would we still see blacks hanging from the end of a rope?

What if there had been no pressure to gain rights for LGBTQ+ people? Would a lesbian partner still have to die all alone in a hospital bed because her partner was not 'family' and so not allowed in as she took her last breath?  Would kids be ripped from the arms of their lesbian parents because the parent was deemed sinful and unfit? Would gay men still be dying of AIDS in record numbers because all the activism during that time period did not occur which secured rights and appropriate medication?

It's very scary, what is happening in the US today as all our hard-earned civil rights are being stripped away:
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2022/04/jonathan-mitchell-the-mastermind-of-the-texas-heartbeat-statute-has-a-radical-mission-to-reshape-american-law/

Please, is there any member of the community with a more conservative slant that can explain this to me -- why it is wrong to actively seek rights for marginalized groups???  I feel this is the source of the pushback we're seeing against actively seeking a special space for LGBTQ+ members on the forum.

 The most explanation I've gotten so far is that you think some kind of movement...a shadowy agenda...is underway to take away your freedom.

Edited April 17, 2022 by Luna Bliss

[Velk Kerang]

Just now, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Not sure why you felt the need to be rude as I was not rude to you, but okay. I'm actually IN the LGBTQ+ community (not solely as an ally), so no, I do not think for one second I run the risk of being labeled a bigot or would be unwelcome in the threads in the sub forum.

As to the rest, I don't engage with rudeness, so I'll see myself out of your replies.

Well all rightey then. lol Sensitive much? lol I take it you don't have a lot of experience with someone who is straight forward to the point and blunt. lol I was not being intentionally rude. Sorry you took it that way. On a final note. If you're straight as you say. You're not in the LGBTQ+ community. At best you're an ally. Those letters actually do stand for something. lol Have a good day.👍😎

[Silent Mistwalker]

14 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

If it's not going to change anything, we don't need it.

Who says it isn't going to change anything? Who says just because it doesn't change something it isn't needed? You? Who died and made you god? 

Some people just can't admit they are against a new subforum because they are afraid of people who are different. In your case, I think it's more playing devil's advocate than any real objection. 😋

 

Edit: The word fallacy was a typo so to speak. I hadn't intended to type it in but my fingers had something else in mind. 

Edited April 17, 2022 by Silent Mistwalker

[StarlanderGoods]

2 minutes ago, Velk Kerang said:

Well all rightey then. lol Sensitive much? lol I take it you don't have a lot of experience with someone who is straight forward to the point and blunt. lol I was not being intentionally rude. Sorry you took it that way. On a final note. If you're straight as you say. You're not in the LGBTQ+ community. At best you're an ally. Those letters actually do stand for something. lol Have a good day.👍😎

FInal LOL count  per paragraph: 4

Results: Not to be taken seriously.

[Velk Kerang]

1 minute ago, StarlanderGoods said:

FInal LOL count  per paragraph: 4

Results: Not to be taken seriously.

I don't give a darn how you or anyone else takes it. Wrap it up in a box and sit on the shelf or put a choke hold on it for all I care. lol🤣

On that note I got Easter stuffs to do. So I'm out. Happy Easter everybody.👍😎

[Luna Bliss]

3 hours ago, So Whimsy said:

I am not proud of being bi as it is just a part of who I am along so many other parts that make up the whole that is me. Being bi to me is just normal, nothing to be proud of to me personally.

I realize you're just relating your experience personally, and I can identify with that, because personally I'm not in need of affirmation either. But I need to point out that I also feel concern for some who do need affirmation. Maybe they haven't come to terms with who they are. Maybe they didn't have supportive parents which enabled them to develop positive self-esteem overall, thereby making a gay identity even harder to come to terms with in our prejudiced society.

I live in an uber-religious evangelical location with signs like these all around.  Perhaps some people in the LGBTQ+ community need some affirmation, some focus on being proud of who they are, to counter them.

[Luna Bliss]

31 minutes ago, Velk Kerang said:

A few fun facts. Grooming bogeyman. Actually a thing. Grooming boogeyman tried pushing up on me when I was a teenager. Grooming bogeyman almost got beat in to the ground by my boss at the time who is gay btw and don't play that mess. So that is an actual thing. lol Don't sit there acting like it ain't. And if you're referring to the parental rights bill passed in Florida, people should absolutely NOT be bringing their personal lives to work and be discussing things above their pay grade with other peoples kids. Period. End of story. That's not even up for debate. So end of discussion on that note.

Thanks for demonstrating why we need a sub-forum for the LGBTQ+ members of the forum.

[Arielle Popstar]

8 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

How do you know that "so many report posts or threads"? LL doesn't reveal such things and most of the people who've admitted to reporting claim to do so quite sparingly. Other than reporting spam, I think I've ARed one or two posts in my dozen years here. I might wonder about moderation by AR at times, but I'd not claim it, much less claim "many" are doing it.

Conjecture is not evidence.

There are a few tell tale signs including posters mentioning a post or thread should be closed and locked as well the IBTL! posts that sometimes start appearing just before a thread is actually locked. Then there is the ones thanking and liking the Moderators closing post that give a pretty good indication who and how many are quite happy with a thread closing. Concrete evidence no but circumstantial evidence can be a pretty good indicator.

8 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

There's probably some of that at play, Malibu, but I don't think that's the whole story. Some of the anti sub-forum contingent are LGBTQ+. Still, they imagine vitriolic bogeymen coming for their freedoms, and will rail against anything that even rhymes with that. I get the sense that empathy is a factor, and the presence or absence of that is fairly independent of gender identity and sexual orientation.

Your turn to conjecture? I haven't seen anyone yet posit that something would be lost if we did have a LGBQT+ forum area so maybe your could link to ones that lead you to this belief? One thing though that is being lost as a result of this thread is any sense of LGBTQ unity where we have two groups in disagreement about a need for it.

Empathy is a funny thing in that it is personal for each and what may make you laugh might make me cry and what makes me say pfft has you ready to fight the good fight. All dependent on our respective past experiences and how someone else's experience may impact on it.

[Rowan Amore]

5 hours ago, Extrude Ragu said:

I also notice how the idea of an LGTBQ+ place is advocated as a place for the young and vulnerable, but to me that sounds just ripe for abuse in itself, as the vulnerable are more easily groomed by people who want them to join their group and won't hear a second opinion. The young should simply not be engaging sexually with strangers on the internet, that is between them and their parents. In fact, they should not be on the SecondLife forums to begin with - Isn't there a minimum age requirement to play SecondLife?

Wow.  Firstly, no one was talking about children and the forums.  Period.  There is a minimum age, 16 I believe, to join second life.  I can't say whether those under 18 have access to the forum but since they are General rated, I'd assume they are.  We're also not discussing anything Adult in nature.  You do realize people under 18 belong to the  LGBTQ+ community?  It's about who you are and not what you do.  

Secondly, one's sexuality is inherent and not something you can be persuaded into.  It's not like joining a club, ffs.  You're talking about p.e.d.o. behavior which has nothing whatsoever to do with anything in this discussion and I find if highly distasteful that you'd even drag that into the conversation.   

[Love Zhaoying]

11 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

You do realize people under 18 belong to the  LGBTQ+ community?  It's about who you are and not what you do.  

I keep wanting to chime in on this point - it's as if LGBT youth don't exist! I think those people never heard of PFLAG - which is not a political organization. PARENTS and Friends of Lesbians and Gays.

Having said it, I'm trying to limit my comments. 

[So Whimsy]

40 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I realize you're just relating your experience personally, and I can identify with that, because personally I'm not in need of affirmation either. But I need to point out that I also feel concern for some who do need affirmation. Maybe they haven't come to terms with who they are. Maybe they didn't have supportive parents which enabled them to develop positive self-esteem overall, thereby making a gay identity even harder to come to terms with in our prejudiced society.

I live in an uber-religious evangelical location with signs like these all around.  Perhaps some people in the LGBTQ+ community need some affirmation, some focus on being proud of who they are, to counter them.

 

Oh absolutely. I fully understand those who are prideful about it and that's of course, their right. I was just saying it doesn't apply to me personally.

[Coffee Pancake]

After 16 pages of beating around the frozen peach tree ..

Homophobia has entered the chat.

 

This only serves as a visceral reminder of why an LGBTQ+ forum is needed. While those posts are permitted and left standing in existing forums and inevitably incite pushback from the wider community, in an explicitly LGBTQ+ forum they could simply be reported and removed, preserving both the intent and purpose of the thread.

LGBTQ+ people exist and they have as much right as every one else to post here, with the same expectations of civility and understanding afforded any other poster, and not have to suffer the thread being dragged into the mud with deliberately inflammatory culture war rhetoric.

Linden Lab have always been proud of their support for the LGBTQ+ community, asking them to support that community in all the spaces offered on their platform is not a stretch.

 

 

[Alwin Alcott]

14 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

LGBTQ+ people exist and they have as much right as every one else to post here

except a very , very small amount of people in SL everybody here AGREES with that.
The problem is mainly, you and your mates try to silence  and call out to the  members of that specific group that don't agree with the wanted ideas.
I'm still waiting tlll you response to THAT instead of kicking them out as trash.
 

[Coffee Pancake]

1 hour ago, Alwin Alcott said:

except a very , very small amount of people in SL everybody here AGREES with that.
The problem is mainly, you and your mates try to silence  and call out to the  members of that specific group that don't agree with the wanted ideas.
I'm still waiting tlll you response to THAT instead of kicking them out as trash.
 

That happens because they attack every single LGBTQ topic that comes up, including this one  

[Luna Bliss]

1 hour ago, Alwin Alcott said:

The problem is mainly, you and your mates try to silence  and call out to the  members of that specific group that don't agree with the wanted ideas.
I'm still waiting tlll you response to THAT instead of kicking them out as trash.

Alwin, from my life experience, paying special attention to how marginalized groups are able to feel good about themselves and heal, and from my observation of the bizarre patterns that often occur on the forum when LGBTQ+ issues surface, I believe this separate group could be beneficial for many people. * I have presented lots of information throughout this thread defending my position.
I realize you do not believe it would help -- you said that in your first post on this thread. You did not present a case clearly as to WHY you believe this however.
I DISAGREE with your assessment -- that does not mean I think your opinion is TRASH!!
And I recognize that a separate LGBTQ+ indeed might not be beneficial for you, personally.
My assessment though is that it would be more beneficial than not, for most in said community.

Again, disagreeing with your opinion does not automatically mean I think your opinion is trash. And if you want to convince me to agree with your opinion to a greater degree you're going to have to enter into a debate and provide some clear, logical explanations to make your case.

Edited April 17, 2022 by Luna Bliss

[Love Zhaoying]

16 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

That happens because they attack every single LGBTQ topic that comes up, including this one  

I wish they (those who say "we"? do) would show us examples of "trying to silence". Not sure how that would work! Does it mean disagreeing? Does it mean references to "moderation"?

Plus: In my vernacular English, to "call out to" a group means to invite them, vs. "calling out" which means "to point out"/"single out". 

I am generally confused by some comments, and should stop assuming I understand what they mean. 

Edited April 17, 2022 by Love Zhaoying

[Kathlen Onyx]

21 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Again, disagreeing with your opinion does not automatically mean I think your opinion is trash. And if you want to convince me to agree with your opinion to a greater degree you're going to have to enter into a debate and provide some clear, logical explanations to make your case.

Why do you think that people that oppose the idea want you to agree with their opinion? I simply stated my opinion on the idea and why I don't think creating a sub forum will change anything. I do not expect anyone that is for this idea to agree with me at all.

It's very clear that the neither the people for or against the idea will change anyone's mind nor convince LL to create this sub forum on the basis of this thread.  

What the thread has evolved into is both sides playing tit for tat and trying to convince each other they are right when it's not the members of the community you need to convince, it's @Linden Lab.   Time will tell if they feel it's beneficial to the whole community to create a sub forum or not.  

[Codex Alpha]

6 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

This seems backwards, doesn't it? If somebody is a secret fascist, say, by concealing that fact wouldn't they be putting up the "barrier", "the 'act', the 'front'"? 

If people are worried about being "deceived" about the mere RL gender of an SL acquaintance, why shouldn't they be concerned about that acquaintance's RL politics? They're afraid of a boy playing girl but don't mind being politically catfished by undercover Q-grooming Putinistas?

(Also, it's kind of surprising that there are those who still cling to the illusion that SL voice is some indicator of RL gender; at this point I'd hope that's strictly a conscious act of self-deception.)

The context of my response  would be similar to if I was dating a woman who wore too much makeup, fake 3 inch nails, extensions, plastic eyelashes, 1" of makeup and botox lips. It simply isn't relatable anymore, as that person has created a barrier between them and me, and I'm dealing with the clown and not the real person underneath.

This was not meant in the context that people aren't free to dress up or present themselves as they see fit - I was speaking for MYSELF and how I may react or engage certain people (not all) and WHY and offering the op of the post I was responding to another view to consider - instead of always defaulting to every encounter they post about as being some hostile encounter.

People need to lighten up around here - I believe their attitudes are more based on what is going on in their own heads, rather than what the reality is. Use some temperance and diligence when dealing with other people. Sorry but Second Life is not that hostile - well it can be if everything is going to be framed as a microaggression, troll, grief, harassment or a hostile act.

I gave other reasons why someone might want you to speak on your mic. They may be more comfortable speaking with people on mic, as they like that way of communicating - and if they themselves have been victims to trolls and stalkers on alts and sock puppets, it would make sense that they may be more sensitive of it.

It's also well known and documented by many of us long-term gamers that female avatars get more attention in games, and more perks and privileges, and some MEN have exploited this fact and gained $$, status and other. Harmless of course, but there is always another way to look at any situation - from the other person's perspective. Most posts on SL forums are always tales of woe - and if anyone dares to offer another perspective - they are automatically labeled 'dismissive', 'disrespectful', 'uncaring' or any other of many.

Where is the patience in people? Where is this love that is so popularly professed? Where's this 'we are fam' attitude, or does that only apply to those who only share one's opinion?

6 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

(Also, it's kind of surprising that there are those who still cling to the illusion that SL voice is some indicator of RL gender; at this point I'd hope that's strictly a conscious act of self-deception.)

It's surprising that there are those who still cling to the illusion that they are fooling anyone with a voice that didn't naturally come to them and doesn't share traits with naturally occurring and widely recognized vocal traits.

In a way, the 'voice' used also qualifies as an act, and creates a barrier between them and me, because I just want Jeff to be real and drop all the put on voices and such. Jeff can do what he wants, and I uphold his right to dress, act and speak as he wants - I'm just relaying how I cannot relate to some because of it.

Yes voices are used as identifiers to a group or other, and many put them on.

16 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

An LGBTQ+ forum is not intended to act as a replacement for General or Lifestyles where all views and topics are granted equal standing.

Then it is not needed, as many have already pointed out, that is already granted to any topics you would like to present in General or Lifestyles.

16 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

It provides a specific place to raise LGBTQ+ topics without the room to debate the existence or validity of an individuals identity & experiences from a *phobic or culture war stand point.

What you are really looking for is a platform to express your views, that ARE based in creating social change in the world, and on Second Life specifically - and why you want to operate it HERE and not on your own web hosting, and you want to be free of anyone criticizing or offering opinions and viewpoints to consider.

You say you don't want a culture war, but what you are asking for is part of a culture war. You want to change minds for a social agenda, and you want to do it on Second Life's dime, on their servers, and to their audience.

You want to be able to say "this happened to me" without anyone being able to offer another possible perspective, to offer advice because you want the section to be "without the room to debate".

15 hours ago, bigmoe Whitfield said:

I've been running the largest car forum on the net for 20 years,  suffice to very much say, moderation is sometimes a vain, because you can only do so much and then you are also fighting your own morals and belief systems,  going "are they right, should I act"  or "should I stop it here and upset every one in it's tracks"   it's always been a very tough job.

No it's not. I've moderated and admin'd in many different situations  online, both gaming, chat rooms and online forums.

I didn't step in until it came to near-blows, or breaking of the Term of Service, or inciting a flame war purposefully.

With ignore, mute and block buttons available on the platform, one can allow maximum freedom for people to converse with each other, without much time having to be invested in babysitting all it's members and gamers - and only step in in extreme cases.

This whole narrative that SL is some toxic, troll-ridden, hater-filled platform is a straight up lie, but the victim mentality needs to shore that up constantly - to maintain the claim that they are being constantly oppressed - so that they have the full force of whatever authority figure they can trick into doing so - being their personal hammer against others.

How about we not divide, and unite instead? EQUALITY is about equal treatment, equal consideration, and no SPECIAL treatment.

15 hours ago, Persephone Emerald said:

Where would you suggest they should go with their questions and concerns then?

Probably to LGBTQ+ resources, institutions and platforms that are specifically, and better equipped to help them with their concerns.

SL is already very very free and open to allowing it's members to do as they wish in world, with reasonable limits.

Many SL and Sansar, VR Chat users have created their own communities, inworld and without, with thousands of Discord channels where they can discuss these issues all day, and free from question, counter opinion, debate , trolling and griefing.

They found it best to host it themselves, so why cant you?

3 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

I realize you're just relating your experience personally, and I can identify with that, because personally I'm not in need of affirmation either. But I need to point out that I also feel concern for some who do need affirmation. Maybe they haven't come to terms with who they are. Maybe they didn't have supportive parents which enabled them to develop positive self-esteem overall, thereby making a gay identity even harder to come to terms with in our prejudiced society.

Is this the role of Second Life or other virtual platforms though? Or is the platform already available and with numerous tools to unite people of similar interests so that they can grow and improve together?

Or is this something better taken to therapy instead of airing it on the internet for all to see?

3 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

I live in an uber-religious evangelical location with signs like these all around.  Perhaps some people in the LGBTQ+ community need some affirmation, some focus on being proud of who they are, to counter them.

Right, but this is what would be called a culture war, because this kind of activity is NOT happening in Second Life, would clearly be against SL's Terms of Service, and would be handled as such.

Discussing real world issues, making real world examples like that - would qualify as NOT related to people's experiences in Second Life, and the original request smacks more of wanting a platform to 'change the world' rather than REAL issues that might destroy SL if not addressed.

 

Edited April 17, 2022 by entity0x