Being ejected from groups?

[Sabine Starlight]

I have recently been ejected from a couple groups that I paid to join. One reason was "inactivity in group". I guess meaning I have not visited the club/sim lately? I get busy in real life and don't make my way to all clubs I am member of. But, my question, is can people create paid entry groups and then turn around and delete people? I am not being banned, just booted from group because I haven't been to club in awhile. Personally I think its really bad business but also very deceptive. I mean, no rules were stated about having to visit club to stay in group. They are taking my lindens but then booting me from the group a short time late. Should I make a complaint to LL?

[Annalise Evergarden]

Complain about what?

You got booted for being inactive in a group, valid reason. (To the owners of the group anyways)

There's nothing you can really do except maybe don't join groups that have fees and require you to be active.

[Sabine Starlight]

The complaint is club owners taking Lindens for membership to group, then deleting you from group. Thereby, if you want back in, you have to pay another membership fee. 

Would this not be fraud? Taking Lindens for a service (in this case membership) and then not delivering the service.

I didn't know I had to make regular visits to the club in order to maintain a membership. Nowhere in membership rules was that stated, or how often you have to visit the club, etc.

I usually do not leave groups that I have paid to be a member of.

 

 

[Persephone Emerald]

Groups are under the control of the person(s) who created them and/or run them. This is the same as with land. The owners of these groups paid to create them and maintain control over them, which gives them the right to manage them however they wish. It may be bad business to eject people after they've paid a few cents or dollars to join a group, but it's not the business of Linden Lab. If one believes they have been unfairly ejected, they can contact the owner or manager to ask to be added back into the group. The owner or manager does not have to comply with this request, however. A worse group practice that is allowed is charging group members for the costs of running a group without letting them know upfront that this is happening. This is rarely done, but it doesn't hurt to check the member abilities to be sure. If they say regular members share in the costs and payouts of the group, you're forewarned.

[Adam Spark]

29 minutes ago, Sabine Starlight said:

I have recently been ejected from a couple groups that I paid to join. One reason was "inactivity in group". I guess meaning I have not visited the club/sim lately? I get busy in real life and don't make my way to all clubs I am member of. But, my question, is can people create paid entry groups and then turn around and delete people? I am not being banned, just booted from group because I haven't been to club in awhile. Personally I think its really bad business but also very deceptive. I mean, no rules were stated about having to visit club to stay in group. They are taking my lindens but then booting me from the group a short time late. Should I make a complaint to LL?

Land and group owners have free reign to operate on their rules. The Linden Lab Terms of Service prohibits mostly illegal activities and they tend to distance themselves from personal activities. Inactivity is not something I would consider a reasonable reason for a paid group, since lurkers can come in and contribute at any time and group membership numbers can help entice people in, but to each their own. They have every right to shoot themselves in the foot like that, lol 

[Sabine Starlight]

Thank you for the input. I guess I will take the advice of not joining paid groups anymore! I will not post name of group here but if anyone would like to know so they do not join, message me. 

[Finite]

4 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

Groups are under the control of the person(s) who created them and/or run them. This is the same as with land. The owners of these groups paid to create them and maintain control over them, which gives them the right to manage them however they wish. It may be bad business to eject people after they've paid a few cents or dollars to join a group, but it's not the business of Linden Lab. If one believes they have been unfairly ejected, they can contact the owner or manager to ask to be added back into the group. The owner or manager does not have to comply with this request, however. A worse group practice that is allowed is charging group members for the costs of running a group without letting them know upfront that this is happening. This is rarely done, but it doesn't hurt to check the member abilities to be sure. If they say regular members share in the costs and payouts of the group, you're forewarned.

 

Just now, Adam Spark said:

Land and group owners have free reign to operate on their rules. The Linden Lab Terms of Service prohibits mostly illegal activities and they tend to distance themselves from personal activities. Inactivity is not something I would consider a reasonable reason for a paid group, since lurkers can come in and contribute at any time and group membership numbers can help entice people in, but to each their own. They have every right to shoot themselves in the foot like that, lol 

These are all fine and dandy. Sure group owners have the right to do whatever they wish. It doesn’t make it more or less BS for being kicked from a group you paid to join for inactivity. Besides how do they determine inactivity other than going by your log in dates? Is it based off of tips? Do they have some spreadsheet that tracks visitors? Seems a bit sketch to me. 
 

that being said, I dont think a whole lot can be done about other than just avoiding said group and maybe warning friends or people you know about it.

[Rat Luv]

1 hour ago, Sabine Starlight said:

I have recently been ejected from a couple groups that I paid to join. One reason was "inactivity in group". I guess meaning I have not visited the club/sim lately? I get busy in real life and don't make my way to all clubs I am member of. 

That sounds bonkers!  I've had lots of groups for events, music and education, that I sometimes wouldn't visit for months. Some of them have members who last logged in in 2014!

From my own small experience of staffing SL clubs, the more members in your club group, the better...I have no idea why an owner would reduce their group size? 

It's a shame (and quite rude) that they won't refund you, but I don't think LL will get involved if you report them for fraud, sadly. 

[Orwar]

2 hours ago, Sabine Starlight said:

Should I make a complaint to LL?

   What for?

   You paid a join fee, not a guaranteed membership for life fee. How users manage their in-world properties (whether land or groups) is entirely up to their owners. A land owner can ban you for wearing what they perceive to be an ugly T-shirt, or absolutely no reason at all. It's their land.

   However regrettable the situation may be, there really isn't much you can do about it aside from talking to the group owners directly - but their decisions are entirely their own to make.

[cunomar]

Put the club in your picks explaining why nobody should pay to join the group and if they ask you to remove it agree it can be removed for a fee , say about double what it cost to join the group .

[Rat Luv]

Or...you could send the owner an IM saying "I was really upset you removed me. I loved your club so much, but I had a personal tragedy due to Covid" (the tragedy could be you couldn't get avocados in the supermarket ) and then they will feel really bad and let you back in for free. And then go in group chat and say "Is it just me, or do you feel this club has gone down hill recently?" and leave 😉

 

[Orwar]

14 minutes ago, cunomar said:

Put the club in your picks explaining why nobody should pay to join the group and if they ask you to remove it agree it can be removed for a fee , say about double what it cost to join the group .

   Great advice! Some good old fashioned defamation, and throw in some extortion for the extra spice whilst you're at it. That never gets anyone in trouble. Waves the obligatory sarcasm sign.

[cunomar]

If we punch bullies and slag of rip off merchants the world has a chance to be a better place 😉

[Ayeleeon]

Have you tried contacting the group owner with an explanation of your inactivity and asked nicely to be reinstated?maybe you can get back in the group without having to pay again, and if so you have nothing to complain about.

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

2 hours ago, Rat Luv said:

That sounds bonkers!  I've had lots of groups for events, music and education, that I sometimes wouldn't visit for months. Some of them have members who last logged in in 2014!

From my own small experience of staffing SL clubs, the more members in your club group, the better...I have no idea why an owner would reduce their group size?

There's a performer in world that his manager ejects people that don't go to his shows anymore. You think they want more to be in it.  It's also the same performer that bugged me many times to play in my club and even got pushy.  I just kept turning him down since he does karaoke or plays mp3s.

[Rowan Amore]

Wasn't large group size the reason given for group chat fails?  If I had an extremely large group, I'd sort through it now and then and eject people who haven't logged in for years.  If it were a paid group, I would shoot them a quick IM and explain why and to contact me for an add back.

[Rat Luv]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

Wasn't large group size the reason given for group chat fails?  If I had an extremely large group, I'd sort through it now and then and eject people who haven't logged in for years.  If it were a paid group, I would shoot them a quick IM and explain why and to contact me for an add back.

Oh...I didn't know about the group chat fails. Maybe that makes sense then...agree it would have been better for Sabine if the owner had contacted her and explained it!

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

4 minutes ago, Rat Luv said:

Oh...I didn't know about the group chat fails. Maybe that makes sense then...agree it would have been better for Sabine if the owner had contacted her and explained it!

When I closed a group last year I shot off notice that I was nuking it in one 1 week and one more before tossing everyone. Anyone that PMed me I told them I turfed the group.

[Paul Hexem]

1 hour ago, Orwar said:

   Great advice! Some good old fashioned defamation, and throw in some extortion for the extra spice whilst you're at it. That never gets anyone in trouble. Waves the obligatory sarcasm sign.

Well, let's be fair. Second Life and the ToS, Linden Lab's practices and policies, all but encourage a myriad of anti-consumer activity like fraud and theft. The only reason it's had any success at all is because most residents aren't total sociopaths.

A little defamation, especially if justified, won't even ping the radar.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Paul Hexem

[Sabine Starlight]

Well, I guess anyone can open a group, collect membership fees and then boot everyone from the group. Nice scam going on there. Maybe I will try it, I could use a few extra Lindens.

 

[Lindal Kidd]

55 minutes ago, Sabine Starlight said:

Well, I guess anyone can open a group, collect membership fees and then boot everyone from the group. Nice scam going on there.

This actually happens from time to time, usually with a group offering some sort of kink, and charging a really large join fee. Just losing a couple of hundred $L to a tight-sphinctered club owner is pretty mild in comparison.

However, I don't think the lesson here is "don't join groups". Most groups, even ones that charge a join fee, are run honestly. Just ask yourself "is it likely I'll get my money's worth out of this group if I join it?"

[Sabine Starlight]

Yeah, it's too bad. I guess losing a few dollars isn't that much, but I only buy Lindens a few times a year and work for the rest. I am careful about how I spend them.

On another note, there is a club that was recently charging a large join fee and now is completely open to anyone free of charge. The large fee kept out most of the wankers but I have been several times since it became free and have been harassed each time by people I had never seen there before. Sighs.

[Ceka Cianci]

If you don't need a group tag to go to the club , then I wouldn't bother with the group..

If you need to have a group tag to go to the club, then it may be time to find another club..

[Lyssa Greymoon]

Phase 1: Find people who want to give you money.

Phase 2: Kick them out.

Phase 3: Profit?

[Silent Mistwalker]

16 hours ago, Rat Luv said:

That sounds bonkers!  I've had lots of groups for events, music and education, that I sometimes wouldn't visit for months. Some of them have members who last logged in in 2014!

From my own small experience of staffing SL clubs, the more members in your club group, the better...I have no idea why an owner would reduce their group size? 

It's a shame (and quite rude) that they won't refund you, but I don't think LL will get involved if you report them for fraud, sadly. 

One reason for reducing group size is chat lag. The more people in the group logged in with the chat open, the more the chat will lag.