New Search page how to change it back?

[Phil Deakins]

9 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

I don't know. LL obviously has put some thought into this. That alone is an improvement compared to so many other changes they've made to the UI over the last decade or so. I know this may sound like sarcasm but it isn't.

Thought, yes. But not the best of thought, and not the best of decisions. What's missing in this, and much more so in the table tennis website that I mentioned, is thought for how users will actually use it. It looks like it's been designed as a 'nice' design, rather than actual usability - which all about users, not designs.

 

[Nick0678]

15 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

I don't know. LL obviously has put some thought into this. That alone is an improvement compared to so many other changes they've made to the UI over the last decade or so. I know this may sound like sarcasm but it isn't.

I believe when it  comes to decisions they just flip a coin.

Heads we make a new search page that has a prehistoric look, tails we keep the old one.

[Prokofy Neva]

3 hours ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

 

How many decades has the scroll bar on Windows been in that same place? On popups as well? 

When I see a list, one of the first things I do is locate the scroll bar so I can use it when ready.

People don't really look or listen. They'd rather scream and complain instead. Something I will never understand but I suppose it's because some people thrive on the stress.

 

No one should have to use the scroll bar when only 7 returns display; it's reasonable to use it when ONE HUNDRED display, and used to, and display on the TPVs.

Some people can never accept criticism of the Lindens or anything really, and have to keep harping.

[ChinRey]

1 hour ago, Phil Deakins said:

It looks like it's been designed as a 'nice' design, rather than actual usability - which all about users, not designs.

I was tempted to use the phrase cargo cult design but decided not to until you brought this up.

The use of flat design in user interfaces was very much popularised by the design work Jony Ive did for Apple about 30 years ago (although I think it was used earlier too). Unfortunately it has been (ab)used by people who, unlike Ive, don't grasp the depth underneath the seemingly simple surface. It's a far too common a mistake to believe that design is only about "good looks" (whatever that means) and when designers take that approach, all too often they end up with something that looks like the real thing at first glance but isn't.

Ive is a huge fan of designer legend Dieter Rams so I think Rams' Ten Principles og Good Design are very appropriate here (I think they are anyway). Quoting from wikipedia:

Good design

1. is innovative – The possibilities for progression are not, by any means, exhausted. Technological development is always offering new opportunities for original designs. But imaginative design always develops in tandem with improving technology, and can never be an end in itself.
2. makes a product useful – A product is bought to be used. It has to satisfy not only functional, but also psychological and aesthetic criteria. Good design emphasizes the usefulness of a product whilst disregarding anything that could detract from it.
3. is aesthetic – The aesthetic quality of a product is integral to its usefulness because products are used every day and have an effect on people and their well-being. Only well-executed objects can be beautiful.
4. makes a product understandable – It clarifies the product’s structure. Better still, it can make the product clearly express its function by making use of the user's intuition. At best, it is self-explanatory.
5. is unobtrusive – Products fulfilling a purpose are like tools. They are neither decorative objects nor works of art. Their design should therefore be both neutral and restrained, to leave room for the user's self-expression.
6. is honest – It does not make a product appear more innovative, powerful or valuable than it really is. It does not attempt to manipulate the consumer with promises that cannot be kept.
7. is long-lasting – It avoids being fashionable and therefore never appears antiquated. Unlike fashionable design, it lasts many years – even in today's throwaway society.
8. is thorough down to the last detail – Nothing must be arbitrary or left to chance. Care and accuracy in the design process show respect towards the consumer.
9. is environmentally friendly – Design makes an important contribution to the preservation of the environment. It conserves resources and minimizes physical and visual pollution throughout the lifecycle of the product.
10. is minimal – Less is more. Simple as possible but not simpler. Good design elevates the essential functions of a product.

We have to be careful with #1 when it comes to UIs because familiarity is such an important factor here and of course it|s hard to see how an interface can be made more or less environmental friendly. How well does SL's new search function follow these principles? And while we're at it, how about other ... questionable ... implementations of flat design (Windows' infamous Metro UI springs to mind here)?

---

I may need a little bit of help here. Long ago I saw TV program about design. Two young designers (I believe it actually was Jony Ive and Marc Newson) were hired to create a new high end toilet for a British manufacturer. The owner of the factory wanted a really fancy and posh looking toilet and the designers were desperately trying to explain to him that a toilet should be able to flush properly and maybe also be easy to clean. (Insert appropriate pun here, I'm spoilt for choices and can't decide.)

It was such a brilliant illustration of the difference between superficial and deep design but I can|t find it or even info about it anywhere? Does anybody know what I'm talking about?

Edited November 23, 2021 by ChinRey
Typos

[Prokofy Neva]

3 hours ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

 

The main reason for doing it is to target a younger demographic and make it more appealing to them. Another word for it is marketing.

 

[Prokofy Neva]

11 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

I was tempted to use the phrase cargo cult design but decided not to until you brought this up.

The use of flat design in user interfaces was very much popularised by the design work Jony Ive did for Apple about 30 years ago (although I think it was used earlier too). Unfortunately it has been (ab)used by people who, unlike Ive, don't grasp the depth underneath the seemingly simple surface. It's a far too common a mistake to believe that design is only about "good looks" (whatever that means) and when designers take that approach, all too often they end up with something that looks like the real thing at first glance but isn't.

Ive is a huge fan of designer legend Dieter Rams so I think Rams' Ten Principles og Good Design are very appropriate here (I think they are anyway). Quoting from wikipedia:

Good design

1. is innovative – The possibilities for progression are not, by any means, exhausted. Technological development is always offering new opportunities for original designs. But imaginative design always develops in tandem with improving technology, and can never be an end in itself.
2. makes a product useful – A product is bought to be used. It has to satisfy not only functional, but also psychological and aesthetic criteria. Good design emphasizes the usefulness of a product whilst disregarding anything that could detract from it.
3. is aesthetic – The aesthetic quality of a product is integral to its usefulness because products are used every day and have an effect on people and their well-being. Only well-executed objects can be beautiful.
4. makes a product understandable – It clarifies the product’s structure. Better still, it can make the product clearly express its function by making use of the user's intuition. At best, it is self-explanatory.
5. is unobtrusive – Products fulfilling a purpose are like tools. They are neither decorative objects nor works of art. Their design should therefore be both neutral and restrained, to leave room for the user's self-expression.
6. is honest – It does not make a product appear more innovative, powerful or valuable than it really is. It does not attempt to manipulate the consumer with promises that cannot be kept.
7. is long-lasting – It avoids being fashionable and therefore never appears antiquated. Unlike fashionable design, it lasts many years – even in today's throwaway society.
8. is thorough down to the last detail – Nothing must be arbitrary or left to chance. Care and accuracy in the design process show respect towards the consumer.
9. is environmentally friendly – Design makes an important contribution to the preservation of the environment. It conserves resources and minimizes physical and visual pollution throughout the lifecycle of the product.
10. is minimal – Less is more. Simple as possible but not simpler. Good design elevates the essential functions of a product.

We have to be careful with #1 when it comes to UIs because familiarity is such an important factor here and of course it|s hard to see how an interface can be made more or less environmental friendly. How well does SL's new search function follow these principles? And while we're at it, how about other ... questionable ... implementations of flat design (Windows' infamous Meta UI springs to mind here)?

---

I may need a little bit of help here. Long ago I saw TV program about design. Two young designers (I believe it actually was Jony Ive and Marc Newson) were hired to create a new high end toilet for a British manufacturer. The owner of the factory wanted a really fancy and posh looking toilet and the designers were desperately trying to explain to him that a toilet should be able to flush properly and maybe also be easy to clean. (Insert appropriate pun here, I'm spoilt for choices and can't decide.)

It was such a brilliant illustration of the difference between superficial and deep design but I can|t find it or even info about it anywhere? Does anybody know what I'm talking about?

I don't know the one you are referencing, but there's this classic one about customer demand and design.

"How the programmer wrote it" is the best scene and totally apt about our SL.

 

Edited November 23, 2021 by Prokofy Neva

[Silent Mistwalker]

45 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

No one should have to use the scroll bar when only 7 returns display; it's reasonable to use it when ONE HUNDRED display, and used to, and display on the TPVs.

Some people can never accept criticism of the Lindens or anything really, and have to keep harping.

You'd gripe no matter if you were hung with a new or old rope. All I said was I look for the scroll bar to begin with so I know if 1) there are more items listed than what I can see on my screen and 2) so I can scroll when I need to IF I need to. But that is not acceptable to you. You have to try to make it mean more than it does.

I criticize the Lindens all the time. Harping at them isn't going to do anything but make people ignore you more.

[Luna Bliss]

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

No one should have to use the scroll bar when only 7 returns display

Totally agree. It might display more accurate results overall now, not sure, but the display of only 7 at a time and requiring scrolling ruins it.

I remember a study from some years ago demonstrating how people choose selections from a list.  Formerly many believed people usually chose the 1st item presented and proceeded in a linear fashion, but the study showed few chose the first item presented and did not operate in a linear mode at all, but instead glanced at the various options in the list and danced back and forth between them as evaluations were made on each listing, storing preferences in temporary memory in both a conscious and subconscious manner. Doing this requires that the list be a visible anchor point as the mind operates and contemplates many choices almost simultaneously in order to arrive at final selections. 
This new layout, with only 7 choices, screws up the way the mind naturally operates for most people when presented with lists.

[Luna Bliss]

Oh, one more input to this scrolling thing.

It's amazing how many people simply don't know what a scrolling arrow is. I have them in my skybox shop so that various skybox scenes can be selected from a menu. Since menu pages can only have so many links (12 I think) I have to have further selections on additional pages, accessed via the scroll arrow. I can't tell you how many times somebody can't find a skybox scene, insisting it's not there listed on the menu, because they didn't know to scroll to the next page! And these are only the people who bothered to contact me -- how many more weren't aware of additional scenes who didn't feel comfortable contacting me?

[Chris Corvinus]

2 hours ago, ChinRey said:

I don't know. LL obviously has put some thought into this. That alone is an improvement compared to so many other changes they've made to the UI over the last decade or so. I know this may sound like sarcasm but it isn't.

They made UI changes over the last decade???

[SheriBalto]

Didn't think this would get much traction but the new  UI  broke the  FS search bar it no longer works all it does is open the new page doesn't do search anymore.

[Ai Austin]

The massive space taken up by the SL logo and search area title at tge top if the entry page is problematic... as the actual content is way down and scrolling is likely to be needed... especially if, as by default, you view the search web pages inside the viewer.

The left hand three tabs take up relatively too much space too. Thus means that the denser elements of content to the right hand columns are sometimes clipped, e.g. the maturity rating description is likely to be clipped when viewed inside the viewer.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Ai Austin

[Prokofy Neva]

47 minutes ago, Chris Nova said:

They made UI changes over the last decade???

In the old days of constant shell shocks, this one resident quipped on the forums that we should be grateful they have done something awful today; that means they won't do anything else awful for 6 more weeks!

[Prokofy Neva]

Just now, Ai Austin said:

He massive space taken up by the SK logo and search area title on tbe entry oage is problematic.. as the actual content is way down and scrolling is likely to be needed... especially if, as by default, you view the search web pages inside the viewer.

The left hand three tabs take up relatively too much space.. this clips the denser elements of content to the right hand columns, e.g. the maturity rating description is likely to be clipped when viewed inside the viewer.

Well, it's been explained to us, Ai. It's for modern youth, on their phones. Oh, wait, SL isn't on phones. But some people do have that third-party SL mobile app or they use web search to bookmark things they might go inworld to see later, I suppose.

And then, again, this:

 

[ChinRey]

1 hour ago, Chris Nova said:

They made UI changes over the last decade???

They've been adding new shinies all the time, cramming them into the UI wherever they could find some space for them with little or no regard for consistency and tidiness.

[Sharie Criss]

20 hours ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

Traffic no longer shown.

Number of agents present no longer shown even though it was completely hard to read correctly before.

No "list" viewer option.

No returns per page option.

Maturity cannot be changed post-search. You have to go back, change it, then search again.

Relevance calc is still strange to say the least. (It seems to favor parcel name more than anything.)

 

This. This exactly.

Can we get old search back please? Yes, it had it's issues, but this new search just doesn't provide the meta data needed to surf SL efficiently. Bring old search back, put this one back in development until they can add the features old search had back in. It's just not ready for prime time.

New search reminds me of a every "rewrite this old code as new" project I've been involved with - every single time it takes longer than expected, is buggier than the old, and is feature incomplete. Project managers get fed up with the delays and just say "Ship It!" I suspect that's what has happened here.

[Solar Legion]

Traffic and "agent number" have very little meaning to begin with. Viewable as a list is something that perhaps should be added in, yes. Ability to change the number of returned results? Possibly. Others have already noted that the Maturity Rating can indeed be changed post query - when this is possible is the clincher. Relevance Calculation will always be a WIP, especially when one takes into account the rather minor "importance" of things like traffic or users present.

Is there still more work to be done? Some, yes. It would have been better if they'd offered the ability to swap between the two iterations.

[Mollymews]

i don't mind the look and feel of the new Search in general

i do agree tho with others who have said that each listing uses up way too much space. On my 2560x1440 screen with viewer maximised and the search dialog stretched to cover the whole viewer screen area then I get 9 search items in the view. 9 out of the 20 results on the page

when I click on a item listing then it expands the item to show an additional text sentence as well as a image and the Teleport, Map and More Info button

i think is too much information being displayed in the initial listing.  I think the listing should just be the title and when I click on it then it opens up and gives me all about the item

if did this then I would get all 20 listings in the view. Click on them for more information

 

 

 

[Coffee Pancake]

4 hours ago, ChinRey said:

Good design

1. is innovative – The possibilities for progression are not, by any means, exhausted. Technological development is always offering new opportunities for original designs. But imaginative design always develops in tandem with improving technology, and can never be an end in itself.

Good design leverages prior experience.

It's good design to have the W key move a character forward, it's innovative to use I. These control schemes took many years to settle on a standard that people can now just presume to be the same  regardless of the game being played.

SL's pie menu could be considered innovative and now only persists in TPV's because of resistance to retain muscle memory, even though it's usability took a steep nose dive the moment the menu needed to show more than 8 items.

Bad design leverages prior experience incorrectly. For SL, this would be putting jump on E rather than SPACE, and the entire right clicking on objects as route to interaction. It's fine for a file manager/browser, which SL isn't, if SL was to follow the gaming paradigm (which initial first expose suggests it should .. looks like a duck, should walk like a duck and all that), interactions would be on L.Mouse or E.

4 hours ago, ChinRey said:

1. is aesthetic – The aesthetic quality of a product is integral to its usefulness because products are used every day and have an effect on people and their well-being. Only well-executed objects can be beautiful.

LCARS is extremely aesthetic .. and functionally useless because it's too far from expectations. Neither users or designers have any idea how to apply expectations to such an unfamiliar interface. So no matter how good any UI built around LCARS is (and there have been many attempts), it will always fail.

4 hours ago, ChinRey said:

1. makes a product understandable – It clarifies the product’s structure. Better still, it can make the product clearly express its function by making use of the user's intuition. At best, it is self-explanatory.

Self explanatory is a usability myth, everything has to learn from scratch without exception, the trick is make it work in a way that immediately translates previous skills.

This is why setting the clock on a VCR was always a nightmare, the UI was always simple and easy to use once understood, but it existed in isolation it was never reinforced though repetition.

 

 

[Jaylinbridges]

4 hours ago, SheriBalto said:

Didn't think this would get much traction but the new  UI  broke the  FS search bar it no longer works all it does is open the new page doesn't do search anymore.

Only the Websearch tab in Firestorm now displays the new GUI for websearch.  It does work, the same as using your Browser.  If you don't enter a keyword, and want all results, just enter an asterick * and it will find everything like before.

The old Websearch would search by using Enter in the blank search box,  Now you must enter * plus Enter or click on the Search Icon.

All the other Firestorm Search tabs are unchanged, and work as V1.2 as always.

One good change when searching for Events, that is not in the old style Events tab in Firestorm:  

For a club that lists all the sets for that day in one event notice, and lists the event duration to cover all events, 12 hr for instance, the time the event was entered will be in Time order.  So if you Enter the club's events at 1am, for events that run from 2pm to 10pm, the event will show near the top with 1am events, and stay as the top listing even if you ask for events after 8pm.  They also have priority over single events in the listing.  Managers need to list the day's sets early, and set duration to 24 hrs, if it is a 24/7 club.  Your events will be at the top of the list, irregardless of the actual time of day, OR what time you specify to starting looking for an event.

This is not easy to explain if you are not running a club, so TL/DR if I confused you. 

The rest of the interface is hard to use, too much scrolling, wasted space, and hidden information under two layers (like event duration.)  I'll keep using Firestorm search for the six categories of search if I want an overall compact listing that doesn't hide everything and force me to scroll and page for minutes. 

One of my shops is on page 1 listing #3 (21 listings/page) in the new UI menu, only because I did not use the plural of what I am selling.  It I add the 's' to the keyword, I am not there.  The Title is obviously more important than keywords.  But if I add the plural form to the title, I am lost about 2 pages down, around # 40, after scrolling 8 times.  If I search and use * in place of the plural s, I get listed at #16.  Fortunately I don't need SL search for my store items - independent off grid search engines are much more efficient.

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by Jaylinbridges

[SheriBalto]

1 hour ago, Jaylinbridges said:

Only the Websearch tab in Firestorm now displays the new GUI for websearch.  It does work, the same as using your Browser.  If you don't enter a keyword, and want all results, just enter an asterick * and it will find everything like before.

The old Websearch would search by using Enter in the blank search box,  Now you must enter * plus Enter or click on the Search Icon.

All the other Firestorm Search tabs are unchanged, and work as V1.2 as always.

One good change when searching for Events, that is not in the old style Events tab in Firestorm:  

For a club that lists all the sets for that day in one event notice, and lists the event duration to cover all events, 12 hr for instance, the time the event was entered will be in Time order.  So if you Enter the club's events at 1am, for events that run from 2pm to 10pm, the event will show near the top with 1am events, and stay as the top listing even if you ask for events after 8pm.  They also have priority over single events in the listing.  Managers need to list the day's sets early, and set duration to 24 hrs, if it is a 24/7 club.  Your events will be at the top of the list, irregardless of the actual time of day, OR what time you specify to starting looking for an event.

This is not easy to explain if you are not running a club, so TL/DR if I confused you. 

The rest of the interface is hard to use, too much scrolling, wasted space, and hidden information under two layers (like event duration.)  I'll keep using Firestorm search for the six categories of search if I want an overall compact listing that doesn't hide everything and force me to scroll and page for minutes. 

One of my shops is on page 1 listing #3 (21 listings/page) in the new UI menu, only because I did not use the plural of what I am selling.  It I add the 's' to the keyword, I am not there.  The Title is obviously more important than keywords.  But if I add the plural form to the title, I am lost about 2 pages down, around # 40, after scrolling 8 times.  If I search and use * in place of the plural s, I get listed at #16.  Fortunately I don't need SL search for my store items - independent off grid search engines are much more efficient.

 

The search got worse some of the places I been that still exist  dont show up in the new search anymore. The whole upgrade is been a bad move its broken not only the UI but the search as well.

[Jaylinbridges]

14 minutes ago, SheriBalto said:

The search got worse some of the places I been that still exist  dont show up in the new search anymore. The whole upgrade is been a bad move its broken not only the UI but the search as well.

Well it is different I have noticed.  You need to be careful using the filter options also, or you can miss some places.  I haven't found anything missing yet, but using the wild card * and paying attention to what categories you are searching helps.  It has no AI to it, remove an s, or misspell something slightly and it won't find it, like Google Search does.

If a place or shop is missing, the Lindens might be interested.  They would never release a Beta version, not thoroughly tested now would they? 😏

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Well, all I know is that when I searched "glamorous," "intelligent," and "bootiful," the first seven pages of results were NOT "Scylla Rhiadra."

(Nor, unaccountably, were the next seven.)

We are NOT impressed, LL.

[Mollymews]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Well, all I know is that when I searched "glamorous," "intelligent," and "bootiful," the first seven pages of results were NOT "Scylla Rhiadra."

(Nor, unaccountably, were the next seven.)

We are NOT impressed, LL.

might be because "glamorous intelligent bootiful" is a special reserved search phrase just for me

 

orrrrr! might be I just made it up

😺

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

might be because "glamorous intelligent bootiful" is a special reserved search phrase just for me

 

orrrrr! might be I just made it up

😺

 

Grrrr!

/me shakes her fist at Molly