Is SL too hard for newbies?

[Silent Mistwalker]

2 hours ago, SarahKB7 Koskinen said:

There used to be a dumbed down basic viewer around 10-ish years ago which was specifically made for newbies and lacked some everyday features that were common to mainstream viewers.

My memory of it now is cloudy, but I think it might have been an alternative offered by either LL or Phoenix/Firestorm if I'm not mistaken.

Anyone else remember it?

 It was LL and it sucked. That viewer ran off more newbies than V2 ever dreamed of running off. Oh yes, I remember. All too well.

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

3 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Ctrl Z is reserved for building undo.

Which works for dimension changes but not, alas, for when you slap the wrong texture all over it.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Profaitchikenz Haiku

[Silent Mistwalker]

2 minutes ago, Profaitchikenz Haiku said:

Which works for dimension changes but not, alas, for when you slap the wrong texture all over it.

It works for other things, too. Texturing though is a bit different and requires a different "approach". One of the MMOs I build in play in has managed to come up with a way to undo textures. It reverses that action using the same tool to apply but what it really does is apply the original texture/color to the block.

The game is based on Unity.

[Sammy Huntsman]

I honestly think that any person who comes to SL, especially with how shallow some people can get and expect you to be mesh on day 1 can be hard. With any sort of mind frame. 

[QwiQ]

I don't think SL is hard per se, I think however that any new person on any platform performs a sort of internal Return on Investment (ROI) calculation where:

Return = Forecast Fun, Community, Opportunity for Creativity, Opportunity for RL Financial Return, Enhanced RL Social Reputation.
Investment = Forecast Time, Learning Curve,  Financial Expense, Undermined RL Social Reputation (a real problem for SL).

If Return >= Investment
     Then people are likely to stay.
Else
     They are likely to leave

Sadly the perception (rightly or wrongly) for a lot of new people is that there's nothing currently in SL worth the initial investment. 

For older residents of course, they've already made the Investment and now this acts as a sunk cost which they find it difficult to rationalise writing off  - regardless how marginal the Return in any given week, or month or even year.

[Syo Emerald]

I never had trouble as a newbie. The only difficult thing now is, that we are looking at the progression of years of content creation, all layered confusingly above one another and working differently. The same thing can or needs to be done in so many different ways. Aside from that SL just isn't for everyone. People who have no patiance or need to be spoon feed what to do or what to even want have no chance.

[Rowan Amore]

12 minutes ago, Syo Emerald said:

I never had trouble as a newbie. The only difficult thing now is, that we are looking at the progression of years of content creation, all layered confusingly above one another and working differently. The same thing can or needs to be done in so many different ways. Aside from that SL just isn't for everyone. People who have no patiance or need to be spoon feed what to do or what to even want have no chance.

Older residents actually would seem to have it rougher over time.  We have to unlearn what we've learned.  Mesh bodies, new UI, BOM, EEP.  New people come with no preconceived ideas to overcome.

[Syo Emerald]

2 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Older residents actually would seem to have it rougher over time.  We have to unlearn what we've learned.  Mesh bodies, new UI, BOM, EEP.  New people come with no preconceived ideas to overcome.

Older residents (if they haven't had a long break) had the advantage of learning one thing at a time. Like for example: Sometimes BOM and appliers do the same thing, but work very differently and then appliers are also often brand specific and omega doesn't work right out of the box... at least the oldie would now how to open the boxes all of it comes in (while the newbie is confused why some things are opened by scripts and others need to be opened manually... or why the box is suddenly stuck to their hand). 😁

[Rowan Amore]

8 minutes ago, Syo Emerald said:

Older residents (if they haven't had a long break) had the advantage of learning one thing at a time. Like for example: Sometimes BOM and appliers do the same thing, but work very differently and then appliers are also often brand specific and omega doesn't work right out of the box... at least the oldie would now how to open the boxes all of it comes in (while the newbie is confused why some things are opened by scripts and others need to be opened manually... or why the box is suddenly stuck to their hand). 😁

Yes but we had to unlearn appliers or get past them at least.  Opening boxes has to be learned by everyone.  When I started, we had system layers and prims.  Learning to adjust that skirt prim is no longer needed.  Slapping on a mesh item, much easier.  

Now, wearing skins on any body, mesh or default, is the same in many cases.  Free Dove has a couple skins from 7D to that are new but old school.  One skin, covers head and body, mesh or no mesh.  

[Jennifer Boyle]

4 hours ago, SarahKB7 Koskinen said:

There used to be a dumbed down basic viewer around 10-ish years ago which was specifically made for newbies and lacked some everyday features that were common to mainstream viewers.

My memory of it now is cloudy, but I think it might have been an alternative offered by either LL or Phoenix/Firestorm if I'm not mistaken.

Anyone else remember it?

Yes. It was an LL viewer. They had the right Idea, but it was poorly executed. The idea, providing new users with a simplified interface, was sound. They botched the execution by designing the beginners'version to not permit avatar customization, which was something everyone wanted from the start. So practically everyone switched to the advanced version immediately, defeating the purpose.

I still think that a similar approach with more carefully thought out feature sets for each level, and more levels, would be a huge step in the right direction.

[Rolig Loon]

I continue to think it's a matter of expectations. I am not a gamer,  so I  came to SL 15 years ago with no preconceived ideas about how games work or any thought that SL might be a game. I have always thought of logging in here like traveling to a new country and having to learn its customs. I have done that several times in RL, so I am not surprised when some things take me a long time to understand. 

If I  came here as a gamer,  though, I would be comparing SL to other games,  not to RL. And games are much simpler than RL is. My theory,  then,  is that successful oldies like me are more patient with complexities here because they are familiar,  just like the confusing world we live in every day. We roll with the punches,  shrug,  and move on. 

Edited November 20, 2021 by Rolig Loon

[sirhc DeSantis]

This still going? Well then yes. I logged in once some 14 and a bit years ago and never came back. No, wait.....

[Jennifer Boyle]

20 minutes ago, Syo Emerald said:

Older residents (if they haven't had a long break) had the advantage of learning one thing at a time. Like for example: Sometimes BOM and appliers do the same thing, but work very differently and then appliers are also often brand specific and omega doesn't work right out of the box... at least the oldie would now how to open the boxes all of it comes in (while the newbie is confused why some things are opened by scripts and others need to be opened manually... or why the box is suddenly stuck to their hand). 😁

It occurs to me that it would help for LL to enforce a degree of standardization in MP listings and packaging, e.g., all items must come in a box that automatically sends the contents to inventory when rezzed or attached and automatically deletes or detaches itself.

It also would help if LL banned very old items that no longer meet reasonable current quality standards from MP, e.g., system layer clothing over (10?) years old. That would be painting with a broad brush, but we wouldn't lose much that was of any value. The above rule would probably take care of eliminating a lot of junk; I'll bet the sellers wouldn't take the trouble to repackage it.

[Rowan Amore]

1 minute ago, Jennifer Boyle said:

It occurs to me that it would help for LL to enforce a degree of standardization in MP listings and packaging, e.g., all items must come in a box that automatically sends the contents to inventory when rezzed or attached and automatically deletes or detaches itself.

It also would help if LL banned very old items that no longer meet reasonable current quality standards from MP, e.g., system layer clothing over (10?) years old. That would be painting with a broad brush, but we wouldn't lose much that was of any value. The above rule would probably take care of eliminating a lot of junk; I'll bet the sellers wouldn't take the trouble to repackage it.

Now where is the fun in not wearing a box on your head?  But, yes, I agree.  Even now, some merchants make it a couple steps in order to get what's inside.  Rez this, add that, why is your demo in 2 boxes?  

There are a couple older merchants who have reworded their items on the MP to include BOM/system layers.  I got a lovely set of t-shirts from one.  Tons of colors for 50L.  I had them on my original avatar.  Great for layer under mesh clothing.

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

34 minutes ago, Jennifer Boyle said:

It also would help if LL banned very old items that no longer meet reasonable current quality standards from MP, e.g., system layer clothing over (10?) years old.

You'd have me nude; I'm still wearing some system stuff from Arundel Designs that I got back in 2010. It works, covers up the bits needed, and as Arundel Designs are no more I can't get any more modern version of it.

[Coffee Pancake]

14 hours ago, animats said:

What I'd be inclined to do to the current interface is make it disappear completely until you bring the mouse pointer to the bottom or top of the window. Much like the way the controls work on YouTube videos.

Agreed, the current "web browser meets file manager" approach is the root cause of all SL's newbie woes.

[Lindal Kidd]

58 minutes ago, Profaitchikenz Haiku said:

You'd have me nude...

...and this would be a problem why?

/me orders another mai tai and leans back in her beach chair to watch.

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

I'll book a room

[Silent Mistwalker]

2 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

...and this would be a problem why?

/me orders another mai tai and leans back in her beach chair to watch.

 

2 hours ago, Profaitchikenz Haiku said:

I'll book a room

 

Priceless.

[Adam Spark]

On 11/19/2021 at 9:26 PM, ChinRey said:

Everything else are secondary functions and should be kept out of sight until needed.

That should not be necessary for beginners. Head over and check out IMVU's starter avatar system. (You don't have to create an account there, you can play around with the avatar looks before you register and give them any personal info.)

This is not unique to IMVU. If I remember correctly, Sansar had something like that and I've seen it in several online games too. I see no reason why SL can't have something similar and more (like color options for hair and clothes, maybe some non human starters and a couple of presets for those who can't be bothered to spend time on their avatar). With that there would be no need for newcomers to worry about the clumsy inventory system before they've had time to make themselves comfortable with the basics.

 

The only issue with keeping everything out of sight that newcomers don't yet need is you risk an "Is this all there is?" reaction. The beauty of SL is its complexity. This should be introduced to newcomers in a way that encourages them to say "I'll mess with that later". How do you propose one discovers something that is not immediately in sight if they don't have somebody to tell them its in there? I might be wrong, but I feel strongly that this is the reason LL Viewer Basic Mode failed hard.

I was never a fan of the IMVU system, but that is just my personal taste. You make a fair point about inventory not being necessary for beginners. I was just speaking in the context of what we have, how newcomers would be better off approaching it, and how more experienced users might try to introduce people.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Adam Spark

[Marigold Devin]

Every now and then I create a new avatar, and it is always fun to go through the initial orientation process, which has changed again, and this one may be more like it was back in 2007, but with much more information about what to do when inworld, where to go, how some things are free and some things cost money. 

As a newbie, I did go through the process very thoroughly, and was attached to that flippin' torch for way too long (!), but I read everything, perhaps not as thoroughly now as I used to when I was younger, because I have less time on my hands than when I was younger, and my patience has run out really. 

So I don't know whether the new orientation process will help encourage the newbies to stay.  I wasn't particular enamoured with the fact someone who was obviously not a newbie decided to bump me a few times and had a bit of an 'interesting' profile that could have potentially been off-putting to some new residents (or a lure to others maybe).  He wanted to chat - and more - I wanted to go through the orientation process thoroughly. 

 

[ChinRey]

7 hours ago, Adam Spark said:

How do you propose one discovers something that is not immediately in sight if they don't have somebody to tell them its in there?

That's a good question. I've done a lot of work mentoring students studying teaching and this is one of the biggest challenges they all face: How do we show our pupils that there is a lot more than the basics without forcing them to tackle the difficult parts before they are ready for it?

One possible and very interesting solution for a virtual worlds has already been mentioned here: Toolbars and menu bars that open on mouse-over. It shouldn't take a newcomer more than a few minutes to discover them but they're still not "in the face", so there's no rush or pressure for them to figure it out before they feel like doing it.

 

7 hours ago, Adam Spark said:

I was never a fan of the IMVU system, but that is just my personal taste.

Me neither but I wasn't recommending IMVU as such. I was just using it as an illustration of one specific feature it shares with several other virtual realities and games. The only real reason I chose IMVU as the example is that they have chosen to make their starter avatar generator open to everybody so there's no need to register or download any software to play around with it.

 

7 hours ago, Adam Spark said:

I might be wrong, but I feel strongly that this is the reason LL Viewer Basic Mode failed hard.

I never saw that viewer since I was away from SL for several years around that time. What I do know however, is that LL does not have and never has had people qualified to make a good UI on their staff; or if they had, those people were not listened to.

The UIs of all SL viewers I've encountered have been crammed full of what can only be called noob mistakes. Most of them are fairly trivial and buried within functions only relevant to a few users but they are still clear red flags because they are such basic mistakes it wouldn't even occur to a reasonably skilled UI designer to implement them.

I don't think we need an explanation why LL's "simple" viewer failed beyond that.

Edited November 21, 2021 by ChinRey
Typos

[Adam Spark]

On 11/21/2021 at 2:51 PM, ChinRey said:

That's a good question. I've done a lot of work mentoring students studying teaching and this is one of the biggest challenges they all face: How do we show our pupils that there is a lot more than the basics without forcing them to tackle the difficult parts before they are ready for it?

One possible and very interesting solution for a virtual worlds has already been mentioned here: Toolbars and menu bars that open on mouse-over. It shouldn't take a newcomer more than a few minutes to discover them but they're still not "in the face", so there's no rush or pressure for them to figure it out before they feel like doing it.

 

Me neither but I wasn't recommending IMVU as such. I was just using it as an illustration of one specific feature it shares with several other virtual realities and games. The only real reason I chose IMVU as the example is that they have chosen to make their starter avatar generator open to everybody so there's no need to register or download any software to play around with it.

 

I never saw that viewer since I was away from SL for several years around that time. What I do know however, is that LL does not have and never has had people qualified to make a good UI on their staff; or if they had, those people were not listened to.

The UIs of all SL viewers I've encountered have been crammed full of what can only be called noob mistakes. Most of them are fairly trivial and buried within functions only relevant to a few users but they are still clear red flags because they are such basic mistakes it wouldn't even occur to a reasonably skilled UI designer to implement them.

I don't think we need an explanation why LL's "simple" viewer failed beyond that.

Visualization doesn't force, though, and menus don't prevent. There is a reason one  gets a warning when clicking on debug settings, which is buried in a menu and needs to be turned on to even appear there.

You make a valid point about LL and their viewers. I think one of the biggest moves a resident should make somewhat early on is explore changing to a third party viewer. But having to toggle to Advanced mode to even see building or purchasing capabilities exist? I am sure a lot of people looked and failed to see the potential of what they could do here. You need to show customers what you are selling. Hiding features doesn't prevent users from finding them before they are ready. If anything, I would argue that its more experienced users who know what NOT to do. It can, however, make one fail to realize they got more than what they see.

[ChinRey]

9 minutes ago, Adam Spark said:

But having to toggle to Advanced mode to even see building or purchasing capabilities exist?

I never saw LL's "simple" viewer myself but I heard about that mistake. Didn't you even have to relog to switch between simple and advanced? That's definitely not the way to do it.

 

[Adam Spark]

1 hour ago, ChinRey said:

I never saw LL's "simple" viewer myself but I heard about that mistake. Didn't you even have to relog to switch between simple and advanced? That's definitely not the way to do it.

 

Yes, you did. It was super restrictive and gave no hint to the fact that SL was much more than just navigating in your scene, visiting destinations and text chatting. They stated they were going to add some features to it, but it bombed before they got around to it