listening without tipping: yea or nay?

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

8 hours ago, Jaylinbridges said:

Do you realize radio DJ's and broadcasters in RL do not normally buy their music?  Most is sent to them for free because they promote the artist or band.  There are also online services where the artists and record labels provide the latest downloadable music, provided by the artist or label, that only serve DJ's and radio stations.  You have to pay a monthly fee for access, usually around $50, and the general public can not subscribe or use the service.  You have to prove you own or work at a radio station, have listeners, regular shows, etc, or work in the industry in radio or clubs to join.  All this talk about DJ's stealing music is done by those who have no clue how it really works.  Have you ever heard of Payola?

At our RL bar we belong to a service that we get our music from, the CD or Music Pool. And those are restricted to working DJS or clubs/bars with proof.

Also near the front door is a sticker in the window saying we're licenced by SOCAN. In the US when we used to live there and had a night club, there were signs at the door and on the DJ booth saying ASCAP and BMI.

Edited June 16, 2021 by Kimmi Zehetbauer
Format fail.

[Rat Luv]

6 hours ago, Jaylinbridges said:

Someone derailed this thread by claiming DJ's were not worth tipping because they didn't pay royalties for the music they play in SL. That was not the question, and was a lame excuse to not tip imo.

Yes, must admit...it sounded like an excuse without wanting to seem stingy  

[Schatzi Timmerman]

Before I run a stream, I run my music choice through Audacity to get proper levels and wean off excess fade. I then place in an order I feel is beneficial to the visitors (Not giving up all my secrets). Translated, to make a proper (to me) two hour stream takes about three to three and a half hours.

What I'm saying is I work for tips and I appreciate the tips I receive. I worked for them. I don't willy nilly grab songs with improper levels or are in mono or some video. I'm picky.

If somebody stops and enjoys what they hear, great. I'm happy to have the guests. If they choose not to tip, fine. It's not the end of life as we know it. There is always next week. Maybe then they will toss me some "Linden love".

Edited June 16, 2021 by Schatzi Timmerman

[FairreLilette]

11 hours ago, Jaylinbridges said:

I don't consider it is a problem in the first place, which is the best way to look at it, since there is no solution.  Just because some would like to make it an issue doesn't make it so.

Someone derailed this thread by claiming DJ's were not worth tipping because they didn't pay royalties for the music they play in SL. That was not the question, and was a lame excuse to not tip imo.

I was just wondering what is the difference of me or anyone in real life in my building for example where we play music for each and sometimes for outside gatherings in our building's garden.  We don't have to pay royalties for others to hear our music in real life.  So, I was wondering if something could be created for the internet that is similar to what we have in real life for small gatherings and that is those listening to our music in real life where we don't have to pay royalties.  The audiences in SL are not big enough to warrant need for a commercial license.  

I agree also that it's off topic and that's about the end of what I want to say.  I will continue to play my music outside for gatherings in our building's garden without qualms.  LOL  There never were any qualms to begin with, not in real life.

Are all my CD's in real life legit?  I'm not so sure.  I bought some cheap off Ebay but no longer do that.  The price seemed far too low that I believe some are counterfeit.  

Edited June 16, 2021 by FairreLilette

[Evah Baxton]

I find it sort of confusing when I am the only one tipping ("Am I tipping a re-run of last week's show right now??") I wonder if people choose not to tip when someone else in the room is consistently tipping.

I like to give to sploders because I feel like it gives some tipping L$ to people who might not have tipped otherwise, but I'm probably just mostly giving to the club's bots. 

Either way, it's going to the cause. 

[JanuarySwan]

2 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

We don't have to pay royalties for others to hear our music in real life.  

No, we don't.  And, furthermore, if I buy a copy of a movie, the whole world can come to my house and watch the movie.  

Sorry, topic went off topic.  I have not more to say either except I know the whole world, even if it took decades, could watch at my home a copy of a movie I bought or hear music I own.  There is no clause that say "if you purchase this, only you can watch it or hear it".  There is no such thing.

Edited June 16, 2021 by JanuarySwan

[FairreLilette]

10 minutes ago, JanuarySwan said:

No, we don't.  And, furthermore, if I buy a copy of a movie, the whole world can come to my house and watch the movie.  

Sorry, topic went off topic.  I have not more to say either except I know the whole world, even if it took decades, could watch at my home a copy of a movie I bought or hear music I own.  There is no clause that say "if you purchase this, only you can watch it or hear it".  There is no such thing.

Right because you purchased the right to play it but not duplicate it.  It's duplicating that is the real problem.   If it's going to servers in the Netherlands, then I'd gather it's not supposed to go to those servers as the servers could possibly be considered unsecure or something in that someone there could steal the music and duplicate it.  This is where it's all a big mess - duplicating - but the mess is all over the place, even on Ebay.  And, I've said enough of off topic also.  Sorry for my going on about it.  

[Alazarin Mondrian]

Speaking as a musician performer, I've long since got used to the fact that most of the people who attend my shows don't tip. It's just not worth getting bent out of shape over it. Sure, it's nice to get some L$ for playing as it helps pay for the audio stream and maybe some new outfits for my band, but I prefer to concentrate on playing rather than hustle my audience for 'Linden Love'.

[Mollymews]

On 6/17/2021 at 2:08 AM, FairreLilette said:

I was just wondering what is the difference of me or anyone in real life in my building for example where we play music for each and sometimes for outside gatherings in our building's garden.  We don't have to pay royalties for others to hear our music in real life.  So, I was wondering if something could be created for the internet that is similar to what we have in real life for small gatherings and that is those listening to our music in real life where we don't have to pay royalties.  The audiences in SL are not big enough to warrant need for a commercial license.

i think the parallel between real and virtual in this case, is the venue.  If the virtual venue is set up to solicit payments (attendance tickets, tips or to provide ambiance to customers buying product in the venue) then a commercial broadcast license would be necessary I think

if the virtual venue is our home (non-soliciting venue) then we can draw a parallel with a real world home, turning on a streaming service in the home. Same as turning on a radio, tv, jukebox, record/cd player, etc

[FairreLilette]

1 hour ago, Mollymews said:

i think the parallel between real and virtual in this case, is the venue.  If the virtual venue is set up to solicit payments (attendance tickets, tips or to provide ambiance to customers buying product in the venue) then a commercial broadcast license would be necessary I think

if the virtual venue is our home (non-soliciting venue) then we can draw a parallel with a real world home, turning on a streaming service in the home. Same as turning on a radio, tv, jukebox, record/cd player, etc

Hmmmm.  I looked at one of my CD's, it's a Bob Dylan CD, and it says 2014 Columbia Records, All Rights Reserved.  It also says... WARNING:  Unauthorized Duplication is a Violation of Applicable Laws.  It doesn't say I am not allowed to play for others or at others houses, etc.  I think many businesses are paying for streams of music because they want a large variety of music, a constant turning over of new music, not just their same CD or music collection all of the time.  Let me take a real life business example:  If I had a hair dressing station in a salon in my home town, I could play my own CD's there in that salon and no one would care either and I'd be making money as a hair dresser.  I think what is playable and not playable is really is it a legitimate copy the person is playing as opposed to an illegal duplication and this is where one needs proof they purchased the music on the internet on their stream in SL.  It's not a type of business here in SL to warrant a commercial license, unless it's as us residents altogether baring the cost.  What needs to be proved here is that the music is legit.  How to do that, I don't know.

EDIT:  Continuing....

Okay, above I give you an example of how I can use my CD collection in a business.  Now let's say I want to turn on a stream of music from the internet.  Okay, where is that stream coming from ?  Did that stream download music for free or is that stream coming through in my business pay royalties?   There could be illegally created streams on the internet in Jibip, Jibip (God only knows where?) and with that stream is only that streaming company who complied a bunch of illegally duplicated songs only making money while the artists and others in the recording business geting nothing?  This is where the problem is.  It's illegal duplication of music by an illegal service where others make money and the artists get nothing - it's illegal duplication again that is the problem.

Edited June 18, 2021 by FairreLilette

[Mollymews]

10 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

Let me take a real life business example:  If I had a hair dressing station in a salon in my home town, I could play my own CD's there in that salon and no one would care either and I'd be making money as a hair dresser

i think that hair salon would fall into the public performance category, depending on legal jurisdiction

that the music copyright holders don't chase down every small business doesn't I think change the category.  That is not always enforced, is more about how much effort (cost/return) the copyright holders want to put into chasing down all the businesses

the large industry copyright holders tend to go after large businesses who are able to pay substantially larger amounts of license fees. Positive cost/return for the copyright holders

one independent owner-operated hair salon vs a nationwide chain of hair salons

[FairreLilette]

3 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

i think that hair salon would fall into the public performance category, depending on legal jurisdiction

that the music copyright holders don't chase down every small business doesn't I think change the category.  That is not always enforced, is more about how much effort (cost/return) the copyright holders want to put into chasing down all the businesses

the large industry copyright holders tend to go after large businesses who are able to pay substantially larger amounts of license fees. Positive cost/return for the copyright holders

one independent owner-operated hair salon vs a nationwide chain of hair salons

Okay, I wrote a continuing above in an EDIT while you were typing this, and I tell you there is no problem me playing my CD is any small business where I live.  

Now read this what I wrote above: 

EDIT:  Continuing....

Okay, above I give you an example of how I can use my CD collection in a business.  Now let's say I want to turn on a stream of music from the internet.  Okay, where is that stream coming from ?  Did that stream download music for free or is that stream coming through in my business paying royalties?   There could be illegally created streams on the internet in Jibip, Jibip (God only knows where?) and with that stream is only that streaming company who complied a bunch of illegally duplicated songs only making money while the artists and others in the recording business get nothing?  This is where the problem is.  It's illegal duplication of music by an illegal service where others make money and the artists get nothing - it's illegal duplication again that is the problem.  

[Rowan Amore]

7 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

Okay, I wrote a continuing above in an EDIT while you were typing this, and I tell you there is no problem me playing my CD is any small business where I live.  

Now read this what I wrote above: 

EDIT:  Continuing....

Okay, above I give you an example of how I can use my CD collection in a business.  Now let's say I want to turn on a stream of music from the internet.  Okay, where is that stream coming from ?  Did that stream download music for free or is that stream coming through in my business paying royalties?   There could be illegally created streams on the internet in Jibip, Jibip (God only knows where?) and with that stream is only that streaming company who complied a bunch of illegally duplicated songs only making money while the artists and others in the recording business get nothing?  This is where the problem is.  It's illegal duplication of music by an illegal service where others make money and the artists get nothing - it's illegal duplication again that is the problem.  

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/playing-music-your-store-how-avoid-paying-it.html

[Mollymews]

23 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

there is no problem me playing my CD is any small business where I live. 

in New Zealand is the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988

in the USA is covered by general copyright law, which is documented here: https://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.pdf

way down in the USA document on pages 26 and 27 it says that businesses with less than 2000 square feet of space, and drinking/eating establishments with less than 3750 square feet (subject to some other limitations also) are exempt from needing a license

so yes, there are exemptions in the USA for some small businesses

[Mollymews]

53 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

Okay, above I give you an example of how I can use my CD collection in a business.  Now let's say I want to turn on a stream of music from the internet.  Okay, where is that stream coming from ?  Did that stream download music for free or is that stream coming through in my business pay royalties?   There could be illegally created streams on the internet in Jibip, Jibip (God only knows where?) and with that stream is only that streaming company who complied a bunch of illegally duplicated songs only making money while the artists and others in the recording business geting nothing?  This is where the problem is.  It's illegal duplication of music by an illegal service where others make money and the artists get nothing - it's illegal duplication again that is the problem.

on this part, the onus is on the business owner to verify that the source of their music is legit. If we have dodgy CDs or dodgy stream provider then the copyright holder will want us to not use dodgy and get from a legit provider

[FairreLilette]

24 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

on this part, the onus is on the business owner to verify that the source of their music is legit. If we have dodgy CDs or dodgy stream provider then the copyright holder will want us to not use dodgy and get from a legit provider

I'm not saying the onus isn't on the owner of the business establishment, I'm saying it's a lot easier to fool others on the internet that it is a so-called legitimate stream when it's really only the streaming company being paid not the artists/recording industry.

However, the onus is on record companies to initiate the shutdown of illegal internet streaming companies down.

29 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

way down in the USA document on pages 26 and 27 it says that businesses with less than 2000 square feet of space, and drinking/eating establishments with less than 3750 square feet (subject to some other limitations also) are exempt from needing a license

Yeah I know, I've read it.  

However, illegally copied CD's one cannot play but it's not so easy to even know if one has a forgery for sure or not so it gets pretty ridiculous there...although I have purchased my music in good faith.  Also, if artists are going to come out and say that one cannot play a CD they purchased in a small setting outside their home, they are going to need to spell it out in writing prior to purchasing the music if it's internet transfer only or spell it out on the CD itself.  One can't just make up stuff that isn't written on their CD that they may have purchased long ago, that's false advertising or bad faith or something...?  

Edited June 18, 2021 by FairreLilette

[Mollymews]

12 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

I have purchased my music in good faith

yes. This is all that is asked of us by the copyright holders. That we make a good faith effort to buy/source our music from legitimate sources and most of us do

most recording companies do chase down internet sites that do not have a license to stream their stuff. Even on streaming host services like Shoutcast for example.  Somebody puts up a shoutcast station streaming other people's work from their home computer without a license to do so. A few hours/days later Shoutcast removes the link from their site listings

[Jaylinbridges]

3 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

Okay, where is that stream coming from ?  Did that stream download music for free or is that stream coming through in my business paying royalties?   There could be illegally created streams on the internet in Jibip, Jibip (God only knows where?) and with that stream is only that streaming company who complied a bunch of illegally duplicated songs only making money while the artists and others in the recording business get nothing?  This is where the problem is.  It's illegal duplication of music by an illegal service where others make money and the artists get nothing - it's illegal duplication again that is the problem.  

Nothing is farther from the truth.  Most internet stations you would use as background music have paid all the copyright royalty fees for both Performance and Master fees.  And nobody "duplicates" CD's anymore. That is so 1980'and 90's.  If you choose some rogue station from Swahili as your music source and you feel they are illegal, then don't use them.  They might have 15 listeners max too - so don't expect them to be reliable.

DJ's and streaming music stations pay for their music using special sources that provide them with promotional and advance copies to play.  Artists send these DJ's and stations their own music to play.  Broadcast radio stations pay NO fees to broadcast their music in the USA, because it promotes the artists and music - so the public will seek out the artists and bands, buy their songs, and pay to go their concerts.  Streaming stations can get their music from the same sources as broadcast stations (AM & FM), but have to pay additional fees if they PUBLICALLY broadcast. 

It's all about money and politics and lobbyists.  The broadcast industry could afford more lobbyists than small internet bedroom stations, so the new internet streaming broadcast laws and annual ($1000 to $100,000) fees did not apply to them, but only to the small streaming websites, as usual.

Performance royalties are generated for the sound recording whenever the recordings are broadcast over digital or satellite radio services. Unlike songwriters, recording artists in the U.S. do not collect performance royalties when their music is broadcast over traditional radio stations (i.e. using terrestrial-based radio transmitters), or in public venues. They only collect performance royalties for digital/Internet radio and satellite radio.

I'll post an incomplete list of sites where DJ's and internet stations can obtain music legally for a nominal monthly fee or free, in my next post.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Jaylinbridges

[Jaylinbridges]

Nowadays a lot of people get their music via a streaming service or illegally online. But DJs prefer to buy their own music. In this post are 26 places where DJs legally get their music from.

The main places DJs get their music from are from online sources. These are based on a per-song payment, subscription-based, or are free to download. Another way DJs get music online is Labels sending them music before it's released. DJs also use their own music if they produce themselves.

There are free and paid services where the DJs get their music from. Some DJs buy songs from popular sites or get songs sent to them in subscriptions. Some DJs also make their own music on music production software which they perform live. They’re also labels that send DJs tracks way before it’s released.

I have made a price table of every source where DJs get their music from. Below the price table, I will go into detail about what every source offers with its music library and music quality.

Source	Pricing
Amazon	Paid
BPM Supreme	Paid
Beat Junkies	Paid
Beatport	Paid
Boomkat	Paid
Club Killers	Paid
Digital Music Pool	Paid
Direct Music Service	Paid
DJCity	Paid
DJtunes	Paid
Junodownload	Paid
Late Night Record Pool	Paid
My MP3 Pool Online	Paid
Promo Only	Paid
Smash Vision	Paid
Trackitdown	Paid
Traxsource	Paid
YouTube	Paid
iDJPool	Paid
iTunes	Paid
Bandcamp	Free
Facebook	Free
Jamendo	Free
Noisetrade	Free
Soundclick	Free
Soundcloud	Free

https://djprotips.com/where-do-djs-get-their-music-from

 

[Jaylinbridges]

23 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

Now let's say I want to turn on a stream of music from the internet.  Okay, where is that stream coming from ?

You could use:   https://cloudcovermusic.com/plans/music/

For $16/mo you can choose among dozens of musical genres, even some for playing in a beauty shop or spa.

https://cloudcovermusic.com/music/stations/

They can afford to pay the Royalties to ASCAP, BMI, GMR, and SOCAN, and to SoundExchange, because they charge for their streams. 

SL DJ's never make enough in tips to cover the License fees - which would be around $1600/yr in the US, or more, for one stream.

 

 

Edited June 19, 2021 by Jaylinbridges

[FairreLilette]

8 hours ago, Jaylinbridges said:

Nothing is farther from the truth.  Most internet stations you would use as background music have paid all the copyright royalty fees for both Performance and Master fees.  And nobody "duplicates" CD's anymore. That is so 1980'and 90's.  

I was using a hypothetical of say in a hair salon just turning on a stream from my laptop like a beginner might.  However, yes, I'd eventually go for a cheap small business stream with a monthly fee...I'd get it eventually.  But to say there are no music streams on the internet making money for only themselves seems a bit hard to believe.  

As far as illegal CD's out there, they are there.  Some sold at Swap Meets or backs of cars at swap meets, and on Ebay.  I have some good suspicion to think so but not in a mood this morning to type it all out.  So, no, illegal CD's did not end in the 90's as I never downloaded free torrent music for well over 20 years.  I did not believe in the "file sharing" of Napster and then others who followed suit.  Although I do have friends and their whole music collection is ripped or burned for free.  

But, I was using broad-brush strokes and hypotheticals in my posts, not saying every stream is illegal AT ALL.

But, again, if there are illegal music streaming sites on the internet, it's up to the record companies to shut them down.  

Edited June 18, 2021 by FairreLilette

[FairreLilette]

8 hours ago, Jaylinbridges said:

Broadcast radio stations pay NO fees to broadcast their music in the USA, because it promotes the artists and music - so the public will seek out the artists and bands, buy their songs, and pay to go their concerts.  Streaming stations can get their music from the same sources as broadcast stations (AM & FM), but have to pay additional fees if they PUBLICALLY broadcast. 

As I answered you before to this matter, that may be true for new artists but that's to play probably for a few times and then the radio station does have to pay royalties.

Look, my ex-boyfriend had a friend who worked for ASCAP collecting data from radio and tv to pay the royalties to whom the money goes.  

Radio stations pay the artists per play of the song.  Write ASCAP and ask them if you don't believe me or the internet.

As we've mentioned earlier, in most markets, both songwriters and recording artists are typically paid royalties any time their music is played on the radio. ... So, for the American-based music industry, only songwriters and their publishers (owners of the composition copyright) are paid performance royalties for airplay.Jan 21, 2020

https://www.google.com/search?q=do+songs+receive+royalties+as+played+on+the+radio&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS784US784&oq=do+songs+receive+royalties+as+played+on+the+radio&aqs=chrome..69i57j33i22i29i30l2.10039j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

How much does an artist get paid when their song is played on the radio?

Songwriters are paid via 3 royalty streams:

Today, the current rate is 9.1 cents (typically split with co-writers and publishers). Performance Royalty – A songwriter receives a performance royalty when their song is performed on terrestrial broadcast radio, in a live performance venue, or via online streaming services.

[Silent Mistwalker]

All that business of RIAA going after the little guys years ago had a couple of unexpected results. Not only did I stop listening to AM/FM radio, I stopped buying music.

Maybe the rest of the world will finally open its eyes when they have to pay for the air they breathe. We already have to pay for food, clothing, shelter and the sounds that we hear. There was a time when water was free and we could eat, drink, clothe and shelter ourselves without having to use bits of plastic, metal or paper as exchange tokens. People had value, not things. Greedy bastages. There's no more left to give. We're already drained dry.

 

[JanuarySwan]

1 hour ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Not only did I stop listening to AM/FM radio

I don't know why you would stop playing AM/FM radio as it's free for the listeners not the broadcasters though.  The radio stations pays the royalties and all can listen for free.

1 hour ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

There was a time when water was free

I don't remember water ever being free but I do remember free TV and free phones.  I think the cable companies want an absolutely outlandish price for cable TV.  And, now we all have to pay for phones too.  Radio is free though and mostly paid for by the advertisers.  I never pay for radio.  Cable and phones pay out the ying and the yang.  

I never minded free TV and it's commercials which used to pay for the TV.  

[FairreLilette]

25 minutes ago, JanuarySwan said:

I think the cable companies want an absolutely outlandish price for cable TV. 

Yes they do.  My ex used to pay $180 dollars a month just for the cable but that included all the sports stuff.  Now if my ex went to about three games a month, it would have cost at least $180 dollars a month to go to the games, so it was worth it in that way but still very expensive I thought.  

I remember dial-up internet being about $11.99 a month and when internet cable first came out it was $40 dollars a month.  So when my ex and I finally switched to cable internet we went from about $11 dollars a month to $40 dollars a month overnight.  Cable has been way too expensive.  There is low cost cable and internet through A T & T Access though which is for people on SSI or low income.  

This is affordable internet of $10 dollars a month for those who are low income or disabled.

https://www.att.com/internet/access/

Edited June 18, 2021 by FairreLilette