listening without tipping: yea or nay?

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 hour ago, Desiree Moonwinder said:

Well the artists are fine; I can see tipping them; they create their own content. 

As for the DJs, their legal status is a concern.  If there were some way to verify that a DJ were operating legally -- paying royalties and all that -- I would be much more comfortable.  We had a recent thread about the legal status of DJs, and the impression that I got from it is that the vast majority are operating in a questionable legal status, to put it mildly. 

 

They're not operating illegally. Using SAM or any other software to stream music in SL is not illegal in any shape or form. The only license required is that provided by those who provide the streams.

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Streaming_Music

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Music_Streams_To_Play_Inworld

If it were illegal, LL would not allow streaming on parcels or music venues. There would be NO music in SL if it were illegal.

[FairreLilette]

12 minutes ago, Kimmi Zehetbauer said:

Don't get me started on the Jessie's Girl song. Soooooo overplayed in SL and RL radio!

OMG, no thanks.   

 

1 hour ago, Jaylinbridges said:

By new, I also mean new to SL.  A band that has 12 albums that started in 1972, that because it didn't make the top charts for 3 months, no one plays in SL. 

Oh, I see.  

A band that has 12 albums that started in 1972 has me stumped but does this include LIVE albums plus re-mastered?  

The only artist I can think of who has had 12 albums since 1972 is Bob Dylan, but that would include his Bootleg series that he released.  

But, you say 'starting in '72'...I have no idea.  

1 hour ago, Jaylinbridges said:

Some clubs are ONLY top 40 - play a song that didn't make the commercial list and they will fire you.  And those clubs are some of the largest.  Appeal to the masses, etc.

I see, it's stale though but I do think some of the main clubs expect the same old tired stuff and I'm not sure where they get this mind set idea from?   A Battle of the DJ's once a year contest might prove most club owners wrong.  

 

1 hour ago, Jaylinbridges said:

Have you heard of the Atomic 44's?  A new group but members from other bands - basically a super group with 100 years total experience. 

No, I have not but it sounds interesting.  I listen to some of the greatest musicians and obscure from Vanilla Fudge to The Velvet Underground.   So, I listen to a lot of what is "underground" I guess but excellent.  You sound like my cup of tea.  

[Rowan Amore]

When to get permission

If you perform music in public, or play recorded music in public, such as at a club; restaurant; concert; on the radio; or streaming on the web; you might need to obtain a public performance license. Small indie artists and DJs performing at private events often do not need to secure a public performance rights because they are covered by the venue. However, this is something performers should confirm with the venue.

The music streams LL lists on their wiki page are who has or has not obtained the license.  A DJ with their own stream would be required to have a license.  If they use the venues stream, the venue is responsible for obtaining the license.  

[Sid Nagy]

There is a recent thread about all that. How to dj legally in SL.

I still haven't found a possibility that covers a license to stream all over the world as would be required for SL, because you never know where your audience comes from. Not even ridiculous high prized (in regard to SL streaming) internet streaming licenses have world wide coverage. A license for the US is not covering guests from Europe or Asia etc.

So basically my guess: Streaming legal is impossible or very hard to sort out.
I have my doubts if it is possible at all.

LL states clearly that licensing is not their responsibility in their TOS in an effort to cover their back.
But if that is enough to hold in court, I don't know, they provide the opportunity ....
But I guess the LL layers had a say in the TOS.

 

 

Edited June 13, 2021 by Sid Nagy

[Innula Zenovka]

It strikes me that, of all the concerns facing artists, studios and copyright holders generally concerning the theft of their intellectual property online, that presented by live streaming in SL for tips in L$ must be pretty low down on the list.

[Sid Nagy]

Well, here in the NL the license offices even visit barber shops, snack shops and dentist offices to check if there is music out of a speaker to hear by the customers. If yes: Pay swiftly please or we see you in court. All these places have seldom more listeners than an avarage SL bar during an event.

Anyhow it is reason enough for me not to DJ in SL and I have no music on my parcels.

 

 

Edited June 13, 2021 by Sid Nagy

[JanuarySwan]

3 hours ago, Sid Nagy said:

There is a recent thread about all that. How to dj legally in SL.

I still haven't found a possibility that covers a license to stream all over the world as would be required for SL, because you never know where your audience comes from. Not even ridiculous high prized (in regard to SL streaming) internet streaming licenses have world wide coverage. A license for the US is not covering guests from Europe or Asia etc.

So basically my guess: Streaming legal is impossible or very hard to sort out.
I have my doubts if it is possible at all.

LL states clearly that licensing is not their responsibility in their TOS in an effort to cover their back.
But if that is enough to hold in court, I don't know, they provide the opportunity ....
But I guess the LL layers had a say in the TOS.

 

 

The problem with other countries saying one thing or another is illegal according to them should not be America's problem though.

If it's illegal in your country, I have to ask myself what are you doing here?  In other words, why isn't YOUR country blocking you from having access to that which is illegal?  We cannot "babysit" every country in the world.  If it's your countries laws, it should solely be your countries problem to enforce.  

Edited June 13, 2021 by JanuarySwan

[Sid Nagy]

How can I as a customer know if a gig is licensed properly or not and how and from which country he/she is streaming?
The one who streams is responsible, not the one who listens IMHO.
Not the patient gets the bill and or fine but the dentist.

And of course Innula is right that chances are not that big that someone will check SL.
Question is, are you as streaming person willing to take them?
 

Edited June 13, 2021 by Sid Nagy

[Alwin Alcott]

10 minutes ago, JanuarySwan said:

 I have to ask myself what are you doing here?

you have to ask nothing, it's not your concern

 

 

10 minutes ago, JanuarySwan said:

We cannot "babysit" every country in the world.

Think "you" have problems enough to solve, "you" babysit nothing in the world, that time is gone.

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

4 hours ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

 

They're not operating illegally. Using SAM or any other software to stream music in SL is not illegal in any shape or form. The only license required is that provided by those who provide the streams.

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Streaming_Music

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Music_Streams_To_Play_Inworld

If it were illegal, LL would not allow streaming on parcels or music venues. There would be NO music in SL if it were illegal.

profiting from it might be a very gray area though. Not the actual streaming.

[Solar Legion]

Sid, if the venue is having you use a stream they provide, it is on them - as Rowan pointed out above. Using a Radio stream on your own land? it's on the Internet Radio station.

Your own example? A store or barber Shop (or similar) playing music through a speaker/PA? Unless said music source is an MP3 player or similar, non Radio (or analog) device? Overreach - plain and simple. That needs to be stamped out.

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

1 hour ago, Innula Zenovka said:

It strikes me that, of all the concerns facing artists, studios and copyright holders generally concerning the theft of their intellectual property online, that presented by live streaming in SL for tips in L$ must be pretty low down on the list.

Well, this could also be said for 3D creators who's items are ripped, or Louis Vuitton , Chanel textures etc etc.. It's about morals and integrity. I personally choose to not attend DJ events... My prerogative. 

 

 

Edited June 13, 2021 by Tarina Sewell
added textures, but you can see that.

[JanuarySwan]

24 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

How can I as a customer know if a gig is licensed properly or not and how and from which country he/she is streaming?
The one who streams is responsible, not the one who listens IMHO.
Not the patient gets the bill and or fine but the dentist.

And of course Innula is right that chances are not that big that someone will check SL.
Question is, are you as streaming person willing to take them?
 

Ask the DJ then.  I've never been paranoid like this but still if you are paranoid, then don't listen ever .   Most of SL and SLer's are on the up and up if want my opinion.  They pay for their stream.

 

13 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

Think "you" have problems enough to solve, "you" babysit nothing in the world, that time is gone.

This is an American business.  In other threads I've seen posters saying "but Second Life must adhere to our laws, yada, yada".  SL may compromise and keep others out of certain areas, but yes, some countries, with this American business, seem to think SL has to answer to their laws.  Again, SL may compromise by keeping you out but it is your countries responsibilities to enforce their laws, not for American companies to babysit other countries laws.   I think SL should put something in their TOS such as if anything is in violation of your countries laws, you are solely responsible for signing on.

Edited June 13, 2021 by JanuarySwan

[Rowan Amore]

33 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

How can I as a customer know if a gig is licensed properly or not and how and from which country he/she is streaming?
The one who streams is responsible, not the one who listens IMHO.
Not the patient gets the bill and or fine but the dentist.

And of course Innula is right that chances are not that big that someone will check SL.
Question is, are you as streaming person willing to take them?
 

From what I've been reading, if a person is streaming over the internet, the only laws that apply to them are the ones in the country they are streaming FROM.  You in no way have control over who listens therefore, other countries laws do not apply.  No one is expected to get licensing from 5795003 different countries in order to stream over the internet.  Is someone listening in some tiny little country with 4 people listening?  How would anyone even know WHO was listening in order to get that countries licensing laws. 

  ETA   In essence, you go to your country's equivalent of ASCAP or BMI.

Edited June 13, 2021 by Rowan Amore

[Doris Johnsky]

If I go to a club, I'll tip the DJ almost always.     the exceptions are, playing music I don't care for, or a DJ who blabs too much. They don't get my tip.  I occasionally request songs and tip extra for that. 

 

Oh and if a DJ doesn't take requests (I always ask)?  No tip. 

[Sid Nagy]

5 minutes ago, JanuarySwan said:

Ask the DJ then.  I've never been paranoid like this but still if you are paranoid, then don't listen ever .   Most of SL and SLer's are on the up and up if want my opinion.  They pay for their stream.

 

This is an American business.  In other threads I've seen posters saying "but Second Life must adhere to our laws, yada, yada".  SL may compromise and keep others out of certain area, but yes, some countries, with this American business, seem to think SL has to answer to their laws.  Again, SL may compromise by keeping you out but it is your countries responsibilities to enforce their laws, not for American companies to babysit other countries laws.   I think SL should put something in their TOS such as if anything is in violation of your countries laws, you are solely responsible for signing on.

LL has and is complying with international laws.
Just 3 letters VAT.
Not noticeable for US customers, but all Europeans can sing you a song about it.
Nothing yada, yada about it. US companies have to comply international rules if they offer services to international customers over the Internet. If they don't do so, they have to shut down their service for Europeans.

 

[Alwin Alcott]

14 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

Sid, if the venue is having you use a stream they provide, it is on them - as Rowan pointed out above. Using a Radio stream on your own land? it's on the Internet Radio station.

Your own example? A store or barber Shop (or similar) playing music through a speaker/PA? Unless said music source is an MP3 player or similar, non Radio (or analog) device? Overreach - plain and simple. That needs to be stamped out.

If the , in this case example Dutch, streamer uses a stream from a venue in SL, he himself is still responsible to have the licences to broadcast.

The "barbershop"...as also other shops, factories and so on...needs to have a license here in the Netherlands, as soon others than the owner can listen to it. Employees are in that case taken as public.

[Sid Nagy]

1 minute ago, Doris Johnsky said:

Oh and if a DJ doesn't take requests (I always ask)?  No tip. 

In my student time I DJ-ed in RL as a student job.
And requests were only full filled
A if the record was in the venue (this was pre Internet)
B if the requested song could be fitted in in the program somehow. Hardrock in a soul show? Forget it.

I never spinned for tips anyhow.

[Solar Legion]

2 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

If the , in this case example Dutch, streamer uses a stream from a venue in SL, he himself is still responsible to have the licences to broadcast.

The "barbershop"...as also other shops, factories and so on...needs to have a license here in the Netherlands, as soon others than the owner can listen to it. Employees are in that case taken as public.

And that needs to change as that is overreach, plain and simple. No, I don't really care what the "reasoning" is - in the case of a simple Radio being used you are not the one broadcasting the music. The same goes for internet streaming: The stream owner is responsible.

[Rowan Amore]

4 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

Small indie artists and DJs performing at private events often do not need to secure a public performance rights because they are covered by the venue. However, this is something performers should confirm with the venue.

 

6 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

If the , in this case example Dutch, streamer uses a stream from a venue in SL, he himself is still responsible to have the licences to broadcast.

The "barbershop"...as also other shops, factories and so on...needs to have a license here in the Netherlands, as soon others than the owner can listen to it. Employees are in that case taken as public.

If you use the venues stream, the venue needs the license not the DJ.

[Sid Nagy]

8 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

If the , in this case example Dutch, streamer uses a stream from a venue in SL, he himself is still responsible to have the licences to broadcast.

The "barbershop"...as also other shops, factories and so on...needs to have a license here in the Netherlands, as soon others than the owner can listen to it. Employees are in that case taken as public.

Yup, in the NL radio and TV are strictly broadcasted for private use.
Doesn't matter if you play national, commercial or foreign radio or TV stations.
Everything in a commercial setting needs a commercial license (depending on the amount of average listeners/viewers).

Edited June 13, 2021 by Sid Nagy

[JanuarySwan]

29 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

LL has and is complying with international laws.
Just 3 letters VAT.
Not noticeable for US customers, but all Europeans can sing you a song about it.
Nothing yada, yada about it. US companies have to comply international rules if they offer services to international customers over the Internet. If they don't do so, they have to shut down their service for Europeans.

 

VAT is one thing...I'm speaking more of varying laws mostly as pertain to ethics.

18 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

Yup, in the NL radio and TV are strictly broadcasted for private use.
Doesn't matter if you play national, commercial or foreign radio or TV stations.
Everything in a commercial setting needs a commercial license (depending on the amount of average listeners/viewers).

The radio/TV/internet station has the broadcasting license in America.  However, far too much American music and other products have been stolen for years/decades overseas with monies going entirely to someone other than the maker/makers or royalty holders of the actual product.  

So, in essence, you are saying in the Netherlands, commercial businesses are playing music for free and not using a license thus no one is allowed to hear it?  Well, if they'd pay for the license, they could play it.

Edited June 13, 2021 by JanuarySwan

[Rat Luv]

1 hour ago, Sid Nagy said:

Question is, are you as streaming person willing to take them?
 

I would say that if you are worried about the artist not getting their cut and you would feel morally wrong by streaming without checking the licence - don't do it.

But otherwise, sure 🙂 There is no way anyone is going to log into SL to check up on clubs, or run up the cost and effort of trying to track you down, not knowing if you even have any money to pay them.

Also, a few clubs require DJs to have their own streams, so if there are 12 different DJs playing there in one week, how is anyone going to make sense of who plugged in when and played what? 

It's up to you of course, but if you want to DJ but are worried about getting into trouble, it won't happen. Nobody even gets into trouble openly streaming sets  and sharing their RL details on Twitch or FB Live (though YT usually cuts a stream off if it detects copyrighted music...). 

[Innula Zenovka]

1 hour ago, Tarina Sewell said:

Well, this could also be said for 3D creators who's items are ripped, or Louis Vuitton , Chanel textures etc etc.. It's about morals and integrity. I personally choose to not attend DJ events... My prerogative. 

 

 

I said that I would place the specific harms done to the owners of various forms of IP done by streaming DJs in SL for L$ tips very low on their probable list of concerns -- that is a simple factual statement, which may or may not be accurate, but I don't see how it's about integrity.

Counterfeiters do a very specific harm to the owners of brands, by damaging and diluting the brand, and people stealing 3D content directly harm the creators by taking from them sales which are rightfully theirs, which is a different sort of harm.    

Both of those, I would say, are more serious than the harm done by failing to buy a licence from the appropriate licencing agency would be for SL.   

Who would be, anyway?   In the UK, presumably it's PRS for Music if it's anyone, but I'm not really sure, but would that give me the right to play my stream to an American or Japanese visitor to my club?

Edited June 13, 2021 by Innula Zenovka

[Silent Mistwalker]

2 hours ago, Tarina Sewell said:

profiting from it might be a very gray area though. Not the actual streaming.

DJs have to pay for the streaming service so if all they are making are tips they probably are just breaking even. Tips are not profit, they are income. Profit is what you have left over after all expenses have been deducted.