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22 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I am a product of my mother, not the other way around. She has for years pointed out the the potential dangers of westernized medical establishment and likely only enjoys the health she does today to her focus on nutrition and a natural remedy regimen. Though she hasn't directly said so, I suspect she would not be too happy if I did get vaccinated as she certainly hasn't and doesn't intend to. She has already seen one of her brothers land in the hospital with myocarditis after his shot and a sister who suffered blinding headaches and other strange symptoms for a month after her one and only shot. 

From her chats with other people in the community, it sounds like there is a fair few who also range from the vaccine hesitant to outright anti-covid vax because of those in the community who also had significant adverse events.

What is unconscionable is your thinking that you know what's best for anyone else when you barely know what is best for yourself.

So, how did she survive the polio, pertussis (whooping cough) and tuberculosis in addition to smallpox and diphtheria? Was she not vaccinated as a child?

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Interesting as most myocarditis has been reported in young adult males. Wondering if it was his age more than the vaccine that caused it.  A lot of older people probably died too after receiving the vaccine.  From age related illnesses.  Yet those get lumped into your chart as Died After Receiving The Vaccine.  See the problem?  

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1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

potential dangers of westernized medical establishment and likely only enjoys the health she does today to her focus on nutrition and a natural remedy regimen

I know it’s pointless to throw my 2 cents in but I’m a glutton.

So lifespans really haven’t changed over time.  All things being equal, if someone has access to clean water, shelter, nutrition & isn’t subjected to a life of abuse & slavery- in the modern 1st world, a potential life span is 70+.

Life expectancies HAS improved greatly over the centuries due to more children living into adulthood.   Why is that?  Weeeeell.  Cause- Science.  Modern medicine.   Cause lessons have been learned & applied.  We now understand there are tiny microorganisms in dirty water that can kill you.  Blood letting with leeches won’t cure what ails ya, but it can put you out of your misery pretty quick. Advancements in understanding how the natural world works has allowed your dreaded westernized medicine to enable more folks to not dropp dead from things that were not understood 100 years ago.

& because I’m pretty eye twitchy at your demonization of science & medicine I’ll just leave you with this question.  Where would our society be today if FB & YouTube existed 70 years ago to spread misinformation & there was never a polio vaccine?  
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2019-09-12/anti-vaccine-polio-iron-lung

Edited by Pixie Kobichenko
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1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I am a product of my mother, not the other way around. She has for years pointed out the the potential dangers of westernized medical establishment and likely only enjoys the health she does today to her focus on nutrition and a natural remedy regimen. Though she hasn't directly said so, I suspect she would not be too happy if I did get vaccinated as she certainly hasn't and doesn't intend to. She has already seen one of her brothers land in the hospital with myocarditis after his shot and a sister who suffered blinding headaches and other strange symptoms for a month after her one and only shot. 

From her chats with other people in the community, it sounds like there is a fair few who also range from the vaccine hesitant to outright anti-covid vax because of those in the community who also had significant adverse events.

What is unconscionable is your thinking that you know what's best for anyone else when you barely know what is best for yourself.

I just don’t get a sense that you’re being completely honest. I mean, all these people you know had bad reactions to the vaccine? I know a lot of people, check out a lot of forums, and I haven’t encountered even one bad reaction. The worst reactions I’ve seen were only mild flu symptoms.

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I'm now about two weeks after the second dose of the vaccine. No fever after the second dose. The joints didn't have any sharp improvements this time, but my energy levels went up again. I'm regularly cooking again and managed to do some filming. I wish I could have had the vaccine earlier, as it really helped with the reactive arthritis / long covid symptoms. I still have some issues with my knees and shoulders, but they're continuing to improve.

All my family is done now for vaccinations, unless they do boosters later.

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4 hours ago, Moondira said:

I just don’t get a sense that you’re being completely honest. I mean, all these people you know had bad reactions to the vaccine? I know a lot of people, check out a lot of forums, and I haven’t encountered even one bad reaction. The worst reactions I’ve seen were only mild flu symptoms.

I can vouch for Arielle's honesty after being involved with her for the last 12 years virtually , I know her pretty well and although we don't  agree on this subject and afew others ( I myself have thankfully had both vaccines, with slight flu like symptoms for 24 hrs) the last thing you can say about is that Arielle is dishonest. 

 

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12 hours ago, Moondira said:

I just don’t get a sense that you’re being completely honest. I mean, all these people you know had bad reactions to the vaccine? I know a lot of people, check out a lot of forums, and I haven’t encountered even one bad reaction. The worst reactions I’ve seen were only mild flu symptoms.

If enough people assemble in an online forum from all over the world, then inevitably some of them will have suffered some sort of symptoms within a given period (how long?) after having the vaccine.

If someone hangs around anti-vax forums and Facebook pages they will, therefore, soon find plenty of posts from people who've suffered some sort of illness or mishap within various arbitrary time scales that they attribute to the vaccine because that's a handy explanation, and it'll be easy for someone to come away convinced these vaccines are dreadful things because they apparently cause people to come down with such a wide variety of completely different symptoms within a few weeks being vaccinated -- no only did someone develop a fever, but someone else developed a painful rash, and someone else developed pneumonia and someone else broke their ankle and someone else's cat got run over, and clearly the vaccine is to blame.

 

 

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7 hours ago, mika Mesmeriser said:
12 hours ago, Moondira said:

I just don’t get a sense that you’re being completely honest. I mean, all these people you know had bad reactions to the vaccine? I know a lot of people, check out a lot of forums, and I haven’t encountered even one bad reaction. The worst reactions I’ve seen were only mild flu symptoms.

I can vouch for Arielle's honesty after being involved with her for the last 12 years virtually , I know her pretty well and although we don't  agree on this subject and afew others ( I myself have thankfully had both vaccines, with slight flu like symptoms for 24 hrs) the last thing you can say about is that Arielle is dishonest. 

It's quite possible Arielle's story is both true and wrong. There's a household in my extended family who exhibit all manner of health troubles with medications, procedures, foods, etc. You could not have a conversation with any of these people without learning of some new malady, or wrinkle in an old one. If you spent enough time with them, you'd wonder if their actual affliction was a belief system so strong that it produced psychogenic effects. This was most pronounced when everyone was together, bolstering each other's stories.

The son of my late emergency backup mother, who babysat me several times when I was little, married into such a family. He's a physician and has been unable to effect change in his wife's (or in-laws) thinking over their 30 years together. He has opined to me over the years, "I'm outnumbered".

During a recent wedding, I spent some time with that household from my extended family. All of them had been vaccinated (a condition of attendance), and they'd all had a rough time with with their shots. There almost seemed to be a competition between family members to out symptom each other. Meanwhile, most others at the wedding had, at most, minor soreness and perhaps a day of slight ickness.

Innula makes a similar case for online behavior I've encountered.

Birds of a feather...

 

 

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Cases and deaths per 100K residents, by county

Values represent the seven-day moving average of daily reported cases per 100,000 residents for the period of July 19–July 25. Shown is a moving average to account for variations in the data caused by, for example, delays or errors in data reporting.

ef0cd5e67d5b0031595c27ec2860971f.thumb.png.4e7cb947f96826da3a06686654e6cade.png

701ddfdea27b1c48a3ce78125598d973.thumb.png.377905cf1c3ee2b6f9de2289ec1ede1c.png

Source : www.cnn.com

 

ETA : I personally would conclude there can be seen an effect of herd immunity working at 75 % vaccination level of the population.
 

If so there still needs a lot of work to be done for pro-vaccination to save lives.

One might also conclude new variants might not come via Canada .. :|

 

Edited by TDD123
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54 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

It's quite possible Arielle's story is both true and wrong. There's a household in my extended family who exhibit all manner of health troubles with medications, procedures, foods, etc. You could not have a conversation with any of these people without learning of some new malady, or wrinkle in an old one. If you spent enough time with them, you'd wonder if their actual affliction was a belief system so strong that it produced psychogenic effects. This was most pronounced when everyone was together, bolstering each other's stories.

The son of my late emergency backup mother, who babysat me several times when I was little, married into such a family. He's a physician and has been unable to effect change in his wife's (or in-laws) thinking over their 30 years together. He has opined to me over the years, "I'm outnumbered".

During a recent wedding, I spent some time with that household from my extended family. All of them had been vaccinated (a condition of attendance), and they'd all had a rough time with with their shots. There almost seemed to be a competition between family members to out symptom each other. Meanwhile, most others at the wedding had, at most, minor soreness and perhaps a day of slight ickness.

Innula makes a similar case for online behavior I've encountered.

Birds of a feather...

 

 

Sounds like my mother in law.  She always needs to 'one up' any one's malady.  We all just roll our eyes

 

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14 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

So, how did she survive the polio, pertussis (whooping cough) and tuberculosis in addition to smallpox and diphtheria? Was she not vaccinated as a child?

Those were well tested vaccines, not rushed, emergency use authorized, gene therapies.

13 hours ago, Pixie Kobichenko said:

I know it’s pointless to throw my 2 cents in but I’m a glutton.

So lifespans really haven’t changed over time.  All things being equal, if someone has access to clean water, shelter, nutrition & isn’t subjected to a life of abuse & slavery- in the modern 1st world, a potential life span is 70+.

Life expectancies HAS improved greatly over the centuries due to more children living into adulthood.   Why is that?  Weeeeell.  Cause- Science.  Modern medicine.   Cause lessons have been learned & applied.  We now understand there are tiny microorganisms in dirty water that can kill you.  Blood letting with leeches won’t cure what ails ya, but it can put you out of your misery pretty quick. Advancements in understanding how the natural world works has allowed your dreaded westernized medicine to enable more folks to not dropp dead from things that were not understood 100 years ago.

& because I’m pretty eye twitchy at your demonization of science & medicine I’ll just leave you with this question.  Where would our society be today if FB & YouTube existed 70 years ago to spread misinformation & there was never a polio vaccine?  
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2019-09-12/anti-vaccine-polio-iron-lung

It took 60-70 years before the medical establishment in the 1800's finally clued in that washing hands before helping with childbirth would drastically increase chances that both mother and baby would survive the experience. Mid wives and non establishment Doctors knew this well before and during that transition. There are plenty examples where western medicine is still taking years to acknowledge aspects that would promote both longevity and the quality of life. Drugs and cutting out any misbehaving organs are not the only or even the best way to deal with sickness and disease. Better access to a variety of foods and nutrition has probably done more to increase length of life with fewer problems in general than the drugs and surgeries.

14 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

Interesting as most myocarditis has been reported in young adult males. Wondering if it was his age more than the vaccine that caused it.  A lot of older people probably died too after receiving the vaccine.  From age related illnesses.  Yet those get lumped into your chart as Died After Receiving The Vaccine.  See the problem?  

Well guess he is young at heart. In any case there are other reports of older people getting myocarditis shortly after the shots. And yes, there has been an uptick of older people dying within a short period after the shots. Just as there were people dying of old age after contracting Covid and they were counted in the Covid deaths. As well as anyone who dies with Covid but of other complications like diabetes, hypertension, etc. Consistency in how things are reported should be a thing. See the problem?

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1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Those were well tested vaccines, not rushed, emergency use authorized, gene therapies.

It took 60-70 years before the medical establishment in the 1800's finally clued in that washing hands before helping with childbirth would drastically increase chances that both mother and baby would survive the experience. Mid wives and non establishment Doctors knew this well before and during that transition. There are plenty examples where western medicine is still taking years to acknowledge aspects that would promote both longevity and the quality of life. Drugs and cutting out any misbehaving organs are not the only or even the best way to deal with sickness and disease. Better access to a variety of foods and nutrition has probably done more to increase length of life with fewer problems in general than the drugs and surgeries.

Well guess he is young at heart. In any case there are other reports of older people getting myocarditis shortly after the shots. And yes, there has been an uptick of older people dying within a short period after the shots. Just as there were people dying of old age after contracting Covid and they were counted in the Covid deaths. As well as anyone who dies with Covid but of other complications like diabetes, hypertension, etc. Consistency in how things are reported should be a thing. See the problem?

Which is why your chart was useless fear mongering.  Omg look at all the reported deaths from the vaccine!!!  And why you should stop.  I certainly see the problem.

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9 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Better access to a variety of foods and nutrition has probably done more to increase length of life with fewer problems in general than the drugs and surgeries.

I literally just explained that when I differentiated between life spans & expectancies.

 

9 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

It took 60-70 years before the medical establishment in the 1800's finally clued in that washing hands before helping with childbirth would drastically increase chances that both mother and baby would survive the experience. Mid wives and non establishment Doctors knew this well before and during that transition.

No one likes to be told “no”, but no.  No.  Just no.   Close, but not correct.

Ignaz Semmelweis, a Hungarian doctor working in Vienna General Hospital, is known as the father of hand hygiene. In 1846, he noticed that the women giving birth in the medical student/doctor-run maternity ward in his hospital were much more likely to develop a fever and die compared to the women giving birth in the adjacent midwife-run maternity ward. He decided to investigate, seeking differences between the two wards. He noticed that doctors and medical students often visited the maternity ward directly after performing an autopsy. Based on this observation, he developed a theory that those performing autopsies got ‘cadaverous particles’ on their hands, which they then carried from the autopsy room into the maternity ward. Midwives did not conduct surgery or autopsies, so they were not exposed to these particles.

https://globalhandwashing.org/about-handwashing/history-of-handwashing/

 

Edited by Pixie Kobichenko
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Ah yes, the greatet hits of misinformation like: My great aunt lived to 93 and smoked her entire life, therefore smoking is actually healthy and expands lifespans. My father dying of heart and lung issues from it is clearly the outlier.

I also grew up in a family that pushed aside modern medicine in favor of natural medicines. While most have snapped out of its spell, for some they cannot trust experts because the damage to their ego would be too intense. 

I grew up sick, all the time, a victim of a natural health movement that is plauged by fear of doctors. 

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29 minutes ago, TDD123 said:

I personally would conclude there can be seen an effect of herd immunity working at 75 % vaccination level of the population.

"Herd immunity" is a pretty fuzzy construct anyway, but also the more contagious the virus, the higher the individual immunity (vaccination) percentage must be to achieve an expected "herd immunity" effect.

And of course relaxing restrictions such as mask mandates will require even higher levels of vaccination to reach the same effect.

Tragically, the regions most plagued by anti-vax idiots are governed by anti-mask idiots, leaving their utterly vulnerable populations to breed-up ever more contagious variants.

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@Qie Niangao It's impossible for me to refute your pessimism eventhough I see the ( slight ) effect before me. I'm fully vaccinated and the delta-variant is incoming locally here as well ... :|

 

ETA : I mean I know i'm not 'safe' and infection is still a real threat to me.

 

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Just now, TDD123 said:

@Qie Niangao It's impossible for me to refute your pessimism eventhough I see the ( slight ) effect before me. I'm 100 % percent vaccinated and the delta-variant is incoming locally here as well ... :|

Very fair. It's certainly true that every increment in vaccination reduces the spread, even if "herd immunity" is well out of reach in some places. Even in nightmare regions where cases are still growing, at least some folks are vaccinated, reducing the carnage from what it would be if anti-maskers operated in an environment without vaccine at all.

Here in Canada, it all feels a little too good to be true, but for now that "herd immunity" effect seems real. The vaccination rate, despite early shortages, is now about the best in the world, and that surely accounts for the remarkably stable case rates as (re-)re-opening proceeds. Fingers crossed that our starting-to-sputter vaccination program doesn't run out of steam too soon.

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14 hours ago, Moondira said:

I just don’t get a sense that you’re being completely honest. I mean, all these people you know had bad reactions to the vaccine? I know a lot of people, check out a lot of forums, and I haven’t encountered even one bad reaction. The worst reactions I’ve seen were only mild flu symptoms.

With Facebook, Google/Youtube, Instagram and Twitter all actively deleting and banning all those who have any negative stories about the vaccines, is it any wonder you don't run across anyone talking about a bad reaction? Especially considering most of the sites you likely frequent would be pro vaccine? If you were actually interested in adverse events, they can be found here, here and here. For a quick perusal of events for the US you can go here.

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3 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

With Facebook, Google/Youtube, Instagram and Twitter all actively deleting and banning all those who have any negative stories about the vaccines, is it any wonder you don't run across anyone talking about a bad reaction?

Oh yes of course.. those are the real important always right sources of trustworthy information.... (/ sarc off)
99% of complaining people is rubbish there, and that's why they want that to stop.

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1 hour ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

It's quite possible Arielle's story is both true and wrong. There's a household in my extended family who exhibit all manner of health troubles with medications, procedures, foods, etc. You could not have a conversation with any of these people without learning of some new malady, or wrinkle in an old one. If you spent enough time with them, you'd wonder if their actual affliction was a belief system so strong that it produced psychogenic effects. This was most pronounced when everyone was together, bolstering each other's stories.

The son of my late emergency backup mother, who babysat me several times when I was little, married into such a family. He's a physician and has been unable to effect change in his wife's (or in-laws) thinking over their 30 years together. He has opined to me over the years, "I'm outnumbered".

During a recent wedding, I spent some time with that household from my extended family. All of them had been vaccinated (a condition of attendance), and they'd all had a rough time with with their shots. There almost seemed to be a competition between family members to out symptom each other. Meanwhile, most others at the wedding had, at most, minor soreness and perhaps a day of slight ickness.

Innula makes a similar case for online behavior I've encountered.

Birds of a feather...

Cute but no. 

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VAERS accepts and analyzes reports of possible health problems—also called “adverse events”—after vaccination. As an early warning system, VAERS cannot prove that a vaccine caused a problem. Specifically, a report to VAERS does not mean that a vaccine caused an adverse event.   ~From the CDC link

The information on this website relates to suspected side effects , i.e. medical events that have been observed following the use of a medicine, but which are not necessarily related to or caused by the medicine.   ~From the adrreports.edu link

VAERS is a passive reporting system, meaning it relies on individuals to send in reports of their experiences to CDC and FDA. VAERS is not designed to determine if a vaccine caused a health problem

The last is from the actual VAERS website

I'll stand by my claim that your chart showing "deaths because of the vaccine" is incorrect along with being dangerous.

 

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11 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

Oh yes of course.. those are the real important always right sources of trustworthy information.... (/ sarc off)
99% of complaining people is rubbish there, and that's why they want that to stop.

What?  You don't get all your Covid information off of YouTube videos?  

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57 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Those were well tested vaccines, not rushed, emergency use authorized, gene therapies.

You have never looked into the deaths and side effects the polio vaccine caused, have you? 40,000 people, mostly children, every single year in the 50's got seriously ill from the vaccine, with fever, sore throat, headache, vomiting and muscle pain. Any idea how many tests on humans were run? 5.. 5 people got the vaccine as a test. Salk, his wife and three children. the next year 420,000 doses were give n to school children. 

TL:DR get the vaccine, the alternative is much much worse. 

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