Vaccination

[Coffee Pancake]

1 minute ago, Arduenn Schwartzman said:

Holy *****. Can someone report this spreader of lies and deadly misinformation?

But both sides ... 

I've seen one try and argue that smoking cigarettes was preventative because the nicotine would kill the covid before it could get into you blood.

[Lyssa Greymoon]

4 minutes ago, Arduenn Schwartzman said:

Holy *****. Can someone report this spreader of lies and deadly misinformation?

The only things to do are turn a thread into such a *****show that some unfortunate Linden has to lock it, or everyone ignore the idiots until they're starved for attention and go away.

[Ceka Cianci]

This thread feels like.... It feells like..... It feels like!!!

[Arielle Popstar]

3 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

But both sides ... 

I've seen one try and argue that smoking cigarettes was preventative because the nicotine would kill the covid before it could get into you blood.

Oh that is interesting:

"Daily active smokers are infrequent among outpatients or hospitalized patients with COVID-19. Several arguments suggest that nicotine is responsible for this protective effect via the nicotinic acetylcholine receptor (nAChR)."

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04583410

[Rowan Amore]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/06/28/fact-check-covid-19-vaers-death-reports-not-verified/7587577002/

https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-afs:Content:9957832237

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-vaers-idUSKBN2AE0QQ

[Arduenn Schwartzman]

2 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/06/28/fact-check-covid-19-vaers-death-reports-not-verified/7587577002/

https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-afs:Content:9957832237

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-vaers-idUSKBN2AE0QQ

Arguments won't work against these people. Their m.o. is simply to ignore and shift to another distortion/lie. They'll never defend, only attack. By doing so, they'll give off the impression that they're winning the argument. It's not about content, all about form. Straight from the alt-right's field manual.

[Laylah Yaseotoko]

Had both of mine months ago. The first one I got sick after 5 days the second one it was pretty immediately. The upside, got a day off work for each one, though after the second one I really needed it hah. That being said, happy to have it behind me, interested to see when/if we need boosters.

[Rowan Amore]

5 minutes ago, Arduenn Schwartzman said:

Arguments won't work against these people. Their m.o. is simply to ignore and shift to another distortion/lie. They'll never defend, only attack. By doing so, they'll give off the impression that they're winning the argument. It's not about content, all about form. Straight from the alt-right's field manual.

Trust me, I'm well of their particular MO.  I do feel it's important to post actual verifiable facts to counter their claims.  I've given up on engaging with them.  Beating my head against a brick IS bad for one's health.  

I'm also sure she'll come back with something concerning "fact checking" sites.  However, these fact were checked by 3 reputable sources.  USA Today, APNews and Reuters.

Edited July 23, 2021 by Rowan Amore

[Coffee Pancake]

2 minutes ago, Laylah Yaseotoko said:

Had both of mine months ago. The first one I got sick after 5 days the second one it was pretty immediately. The upside, got a day off work for each one, though after the second one I really needed it hah. That being said, happy to have it behind me, interested to see when/if we need boosters.

My second (Moderna) was rough for a few days. Expecting we will need boosters or a new vaccine in the next year, hopefully it will just end up being a combined shot.

[Sid Nagy]

As long as only a hand full of countries is somewhat close to high enough vaccination percentages, we are not out of the woods.
New variants can still pop up. If we get unlucky they can be more deadly, faster spreading and not caught by the current vaccines..
The only way out is vaccinating everywhere in the rest of the world ASAP and hope for the best (that the virus might die in the end).

Who cares about a few @#$%$ who think vaccination is worse than the virus.
There are !@#$% too who still believe the earth is flat despite all evidence.
Keeping discussing with them is useless and a waist of time.

There are still billions of people who are in dear need of a vaccine. Let's focus on that.
They might be our way out back to normal.
 

Edited July 23, 2021 by Sid Nagy

[Arielle Popstar]

7 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Trust me, I'm well of their particular MO.  I do feel it's important to post actual verifiable facts to counter their claims.  I've given up on engaging with them.  Beating my head against a brick was IS bad for one's health.  

I'm also sure she'll come back with something concerning "fact checking" sites.  However, these fact were checked by 3 reputable sources.  USA Today, APNews and Reuters.

Well they are the typical clickbait factchecking sort of articles you favour. I wonder if you even read them considering their rebuttals to some stated fact it is checking, agrees for the most part but takes issue with some small detail not germane to the initial fact.

Taking the USA Today one they state:

"The claim that the "death toll” of COVID-19 vaccines is more than 20 times higher than that of past vaccines is FALSE, based on our research. Deaths reported to VAERS for the COVID-19 vaccines do outnumber reports for past vaccines, but those reports have not been verified as being causally related."

I didn't state it was 20 times higher as it is quite evident from the number it is only 11 times higher then all previous vaccine deaths prior to covid. Whether or not it is causal, it is still statistically significant in comparison.

My question would be why you vaccine drug pushers are so adamant about trying to hide the negative effects of them. Shouldn't human guinnea pigs be informed of the potential side effects?

[Rowan Amore]

11 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Well they are the typical clickbait factchecking sort of articles you favour. I wonder if you even read them considering their rebuttals to some stated fact it is checking, agrees for the most part but takes issue with some small detail not germane to the initial fact.

Taking the USA Today one they state:

"The claim that the "death toll” of COVID-19 vaccines is more than 20 times higher than that of past vaccines is FALSE, based on our research. Deaths reported to VAERS for the COVID-19 vaccines do outnumber reports for past vaccines, but those reports have not been verified as being causally related."

I didn't state it was 20 times higher as it is quite evident from the number it is only 11 times higher then all previous vaccine deaths prior to covid. Whether or not it is causal, it is still statistically significant in comparison.

My question would be why you vaccine drug pushers are so adamant about trying to hide the negative effects of them. Shouldn't human guinnea pigs be informed of the potential side effects?

I do read the articles I post.  None of them back your claims.  

Whether it is causal is indeed significant.  

From a previous post I made you may have missed...

However, it is false to say that COVID vaccines have caused 966 deaths, because the VAERS database is not designed to give this information. For example, in the dataset published by The Epoch Times, one of the people who died after getting a vaccine had also been injured in a car crash between getting the jab and the date of their death, but the case was still included in the dataset.

The CDC said on its adverse events page, updated March 1: "To date, VAERS has not detected patterns in cause of death that would indicate a safety problem with COVID-19 vaccines."

[Rowan Amore]

Just to add...if anyone is posting clickbait sites, it's not me.  

[Silent Mistwalker]

I have never seen such ridiculousness 

1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

There are some good arguments out there for the idea that the new strains are as a direct result of the vaccines themselves. After all, there would be no need for the virus to mutate if there had been no vaccine and that is proven by the fact that the vaccines are not as effective on the delta strain. Same as antibiotic resistance.

Viruses mutate regardless of any vaccine or lack thereof.

[Rowan Amore]

https://www.npr.org/2021/02/09/965703047/vaccines-could-drive-the-evolution-of-more-covid-19-mutants

HARRIS: One thing that helps is that dozens of vaccines are being developed. And more than half a dozen are already in use.

READ: One of the great things about having a lot of vaccine options is we might end up with a population which is heterogeneously vaccinated. You might get the AstraZeneca. And I'm going to get one of the mRNA ones. That'll really help hinder the spread of mutants that are good at any one of those.

HARRIS: A virus that has evolved to get around one vaccine is likely to be stopped by another. And that will limit the spread of mutant strains. Drugmakers are also keeping a close eye on mutants and are already formulating new vaccines that will be more effective if it turns out the original vaccines weaken too much. Paul Bieniasz says, this is not a crisis.

BIENIASZ: We're not going to fall off a cliff tomorrow in terms of vaccine efficacy. What we're likely to see is a slow, steady erosion of efficacy over, perhaps, quite a long period of time.

HARRIS: Bieniasz says, to slow this evolutionary process as much as possible, it's important to slow the spread of the virus right now so people who get vaccinated are at lower risk for getting infected in the first place.

[Qie Niangao]

1 minute ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Viruses mutate regardless of any vaccine or lack thereof.

Yes, but there's evolution, so it's likely that the dominance of the delta variant is expedited by it being so very effective at spreading even in an ecosystem where many folks are vaccinated. I've seen no evidence that delta is resistant to a vaccine, but that too could emerge, and we always knew such developments were likely. They'd be much less likely, of course, if somehow the idiots got vaccinated so the entire virus could be eradicated, but it seems clear that will be decades of misery from now.

[Silent Mistwalker]

2 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

But both sides ... 

I've seen one try and argue that smoking cigarettes was preventative because the nicotine would kill the covid before it could get into you blood.

 

I smoke. That's a load of bs. I still contracted Covid before the pandemic was declared. Yes, it has been in the US longer than what can be shown now because no one really knew what it was or that it wasn't just a really, really bad case of the flu. It was not the flu. Those tests came back negative.

If my husband hadn't come down with just before I did, we both would have ended up in the hospital but there was no one to drive us and we can't afford an ambulance. It's no fun not being able to breathe.

If people won't get vaccinated for their own sake and health, please, at least do it for those you care about. At least protect them if you won't protect yourself. If you don't care, then there is nothing anyone can say or do to change your mind. Because you don't care. And that says a lot about you that is not good.

Edit: "You" in this case is the general "you".

Edited July 23, 2021 by Silent Mistwalker

[Rowan Amore]

The disease caused by the virus is claiming about 250 lives each day — far fewer than during the peaks last year, but still 42 percent higher than two weeks ago. More than 97 percent of those hospitalized are unvaccinated, Dr. Walensky said last week.

The public health crisis is particularly acute in parts of the country where vaccination rates are the lowest. In Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama and Florida, the number of daily new cases is up more than 200 percent in the past two weeks, driving new hospitalizations and deaths almost exclusively among the unvaccinated. Intensive care units are filled or filling in southern Missouri and northern Arkansas.

‘Not Out of the Woods’: C.D.C. Issues Warning to the Unvaccinated (msn.com)

[Qie Niangao]

1 hour ago, Extrude Ragu said:

This is what I can't stand about people like you. This snooty attitude that everyone who doesn't think like you do is irredeemably stupid. That they are not human, that they can't be reasoned with.

I sat here, took the time to explain my concerns, showed how they could be alleviated, but you still just can't help yourself can you?

As I said in another post, somebody besides me would need to be responsible for messaging. I can't be bothered anymore. They're idiots and their idiocy spreads misery worldwide. They must be defeated humanely but expeditiously. Mollycoddle them as long as it works, but we can't wait forever while people are dying because of them.

[Silent Mistwalker]

6 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Yes, but there's evolution, so it's likely that the dominance of the delta variant is expedited by it being so very effective at spreading even in an ecosystem where many folks are vaccinated. I've seen no evidence that delta is resistant to a vaccine, but that too could emerge, and we always knew such developments were likely. They'd be much less likely, of course, if somehow the idiots got vaccinated so the entire virus could be eradicated, but it seems clear that will be decades of misery from now.

Mutations are evolution.

There will always be those who are unwilling to save their own lives, much less the lives of those around them.

[Qie Niangao]

Just now, Silent Mistwalker said:

Mutations are evolution.

Absolutely. My point was that evolution fills biological niches, and vaccines carve the ecosystem, closing off some paths of virus transmission but leaving some niches, too.

It appears that delta, for example, generates vastly more copies of itself, so it transmits more effectively than competing variants in pretty much any environment. But what if delta were especially good at spreading specifically in a highly vaccinated environment? Although it doesn't seem to be much of a threat to vaccinated people directly, it might be possible that delta's huge viral load could make it transmissible by vaccinated people, even supposing they almost never spread other variants. None of this is substantiated, it's all hypothetical, but it's a plausible way vaccines could shape evolution of SARS-CoV2 in some possible world.

[Sid Nagy]

2 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

But both sides ... 

I've seen one try and argue that smoking cigarettes was preventative because the nicotine would kill the covid before it could get into you blood.

Holding your breath for more than 10 minutes in a row seems to work just fine too.
And it just has one minor almost harmless side effect.

[Silent Mistwalker]

13 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Absolutely. My point was that evolution fills biological niches, and vaccines carve the ecosystem, closing off some paths of virus transmission but leaving some niches, too.

It appears that delta, for example, generates vastly more copies of itself, so it transmits more effectively than competing variants in pretty much any environment. But what if delta were especially good at spreading specifically in a highly vaccinated environment? Although it doesn't seem to be much of a threat to vaccinated people directly, it might be possible that delta's huge viral load could make it transmissible by vaccinated people, even supposing they almost never spread other variants. None of this is substantiated, it's all hypothetical, but it's a plausible way vaccines could shape evolution of SARS-CoV2 in some possible world.

In that case, the delta would still be following the same "evolutionary rules" and will continue to mutate.

They're called carriers for a reason. Typhoid Mary was one such person. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymptomatic_carrier

I know you know this but I'm not so sure others do.

[Innula Zenovka]

19 hours ago, RacyAcey said:

Will never get the shot.....I will take my chances with the virus.  The shot does kill some people and makes some sick with things that are lasting, like heart problems.  No thanks. 

Hmm.   I see that, according to the CDC

Quote

Reports of death after COVID-19 vaccination are rare. More than 339 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through July 19, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 6,207 reports of death (0.0018%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. FDA requires healthcare providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS, even if it’s unclear whether the vaccine was the cause. Reports of adverse events to VAERS following vaccination, including deaths, do not necessarily mean that a vaccine caused a health problem. A review of available clinical information, including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records, has not established a causal link to COVID-19 vaccines. 

So that gives us a ceiling of 6,207 deaths within 28 days (I think) being vaccinated, even though some of those may be people who were run over crossing the road, and the actual total that can likely be associated with the vaccine is far, far less.

That is, by comparison, about the same number people dying from Covid in the US every couple of days back in January, and certainly no more (I can't be bothered to find the exact figure) than have died from Covid in the US this month.

You know best, of course, but I think you're making a very bad bet for the  highest possible stakes.

[Madelaine McMasters]

3 hours ago, Caroline Takeda said:

Seriously?

You are quoting a book that is almost 2000 Years old?

When someone who ascribes to a 2000 year old book (a christian) makes claims that counter that 2000 year old book, the 2000 year old book comes in handy.

I have, more than once, quoted Arielle as the source of claims to counter Arielle's claims. Molly had to do a bit more homework.