DISAPPOINTMENT IN CHARGING TO USE THE EVENTS CALENDAR

[Alyona Su]

43 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

Just another way to get that Premium upfront cash.

And what's wrong with this in a business sense?

[Asadora Summers]

Personally, I think it's about time that event listings had a charge, because in order for the ones that use it should pay to advertise, just like content creators do. Content creators pay every time they turn around. DJs, clubs and other type events should as well. 

In order to 'make money' one does have to invest some money up front and listing an event is simply an investment that has been abused for far too long. 

And the price for non premium members I think is a fair amount: 50L for an event listing each is no different then paying a pull per gacha and no one complains about gacha costs do they?

(I know I misspelled gacha, it's early, actually I'm not sure if I misspelled it or not) 

Listing an event at whatever price point is an unknown result, the same with pulling a gacha.

You never know what you are gonna get.  

 

[Selene Gregoire]

1 hour ago, Asadora Summers said:

Personally, I think it's about time that event listings had a charge, because in order for the ones that use it should pay to advertise, just like content creators do. Content creators pay every time they turn around. DJs, clubs and other type events should as well. 

In order to 'make money' one does have to invest some money up front and listing an event is simply an investment that has been abused for far too long. 

And the price for non premium members I think is a fair amount: 50L for an event listing each is no different then paying a pull per gacha and no one complains about gacha costs do they?

(I know I misspelled gacha, it's early, actually I'm not sure if I misspelled it or not) 

Listing an event at whatever price point is an unknown result, the same with pulling a gacha.

You never know what you are gonna get.  

 

Not everyone plays gachas. I certainly don't. 

People who can't afford premium are being slowly forced out of SL. That says something really nasty about LL and its board of directors/CEO. It's not just the cost of doing business, it's flat out greed and reeks of elitism. Apparently, they aren't interested in retaining long term customers that have been in SL for 10 or more years as well as increasing revenue and retention. Repeat customers are what keeps businesses going. Seems LL has yet to really learn that.

 

[Adam Spark]

2 hours ago, Asadora Summers said:

Personally, I think it's about time that event listings had a charge, because in order for the ones that use it should pay to advertise, just like content creators do. Content creators pay every time they turn around. DJs, clubs and other type events should as well. 

In order to 'make money' one does have to invest some money up front and listing an event is simply an investment that has been abused for far too long. 

In fairness @Asadora Summers, clubs have been paying since the beginning of the grid. Matter of fact, this cost will only increase club costs not even 5% in most cases, perhaps often not even 1%. Its nothing compared to the tier we pay.

[Lyndka Cochrane]

On 11/25/2019 at 6:22 PM, Nadia Chatterbox said:

I’ve done the hosting thing for years and posted events per club rules.  Truth be told, $10/50 isn’t a lot.  However, I worked multiple clubs in a day.  When I did this, I worked for my $$.  And, often, I did not get tipped or paid by the club owner/manager.  Often,  I was lucky if I got $100.  I made enough to shop and rent.  And I had fun, and made some friends.    Now, I just invest a few dollars weekly.

So, you club owners requiring this, either pay your hosts to post, this does not include their shift pay.    Or post it yourself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's what exactly what I've told our hosts... As a club we post events anyway and we won't mind paying the listing costs - it comes out of our donation jar not our hosts tip jars. I've told our hosts & DJ's that if they want to post an extra event for their set (they may be doing a music or costume theme) then we will re-imburse for that post if they wish - however, I'm not going to re-imburse for multiple posts.... I'm hoping it will cut down the clutter and crap AND it has the side effect that now it's a paid for service - the labs can be held responsible for it and and hopefully improve it more.

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

15 hours ago, Jaylinbridges said:

They didn't waste any time adding the fees for SL Event postings.   So now, according to LL, all the "spam" will go away.  And the moon is made of green cheese.  From the Create a new event web page:

"Create a new event

At the Basic subscription level, the fee for creating an event is L$50. At the Premium level, the fee is only L$10.
Learn more about Premium or upgrade now.

I understand that my account will be charged L$50 for each event I create"

Just another way to get that Premium upfront cash.

I was just told that by someone. Thought it was going to start next year.

[Selene Gregoire]

It would be ironic (situational irony) if LL discovers that all along it wasn't basic accounts spamming the events so much as it was premium accounts. 

I doubt we'd ever know. LL can be very closed mouthed about such things. Still, the irony would be rather delicious. 🥧

[Tolya Ugajin]

I would be immensely interested to see how many of the people complaining that this very minimal fee (10L is less than a nickel per event) will "bankrupt" them support mandatory health insurance, mandatory paid sick leave, $15/hr minimum wages, etc. in RL which have literally forced RL businesses to close up shop and cost real jobs and livelihoods, because the response to RL businesses when THEY complain they cannot afford the added expenses mandated by the government (and LL is the government of SL) is generally along the lines of, "well, if you cannot afford it, you should go out of business anyway".

LL is a business, with employees to pay, infrastructure to build and maintain, utilities bills, rent, and a whole host of other expenses, all to provide you with a world to enjoy and, in the case of club owners, create a business and possibly make a small profit.  They provide you a service (event listings) that they previously provided for free, and are now charging a very minimal fee for it.  Welcome to the reality of running a business.  The service they are providing is clearly of value to you, or you would not be squawking about it.  Why should they not charge for providing a valuable service?  If the service isn't worth 5 cents, don't use it.  There ARE other ways to advertise your DJ's and live singers and clubs (such as group notices or the ever popular have your DJs mass message and spam TP everyone on their friend list).

Or do what I eventually did - close shop and escape the never ending drama and hassle that comes with owning a public venue in SL.  Gotta say, I loved SL more than ever once I did that.

(I'm sorry if this comes across as *****ish - I don't mean to be a *****, I just naturally am).

[Tolya Ugajin]

1 hour ago, Selene Gregoire said:

It would be ironic (situational irony) if LL discovers that all along it wasn't basic accounts spamming the events so much as it was premium accounts. 

I doubt we'd ever know. LL can be very closed mouthed about such things. Still, the irony would be rather delicious. 🥧

The irony would be extra delicious, since they should have been able to determine that before they put the policy in place.

"Irony: the opposite of wrinkly" - from a random profile I read.

[Tolya Ugajin]

14 hours ago, Asadora Summers said:

(I know I misspelled gacha, it's early, actually I'm not sure if I misspelled it or not) 

 

 

"Gacha" - a bastardized abbreviation for "gotchermoneysucka"

[Tolya Ugajin]

8 minutes ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

(I'm sorry if this comes across as *****ish - I don't mean to be a *****, I just naturally am).

Lol thank you SL for saving the virgin eyes of the readers of this forum.  Now, let's see if your content filter can handle an old George Carlin line: "On TV, you can ***** your finger, but you can't finger your *****"

[Jaylinbridges]

5 hours ago, Selene Gregoire said:

It would be ironic (situational irony) if LL discovers that all along it wasn't basic accounts spamming the events so much as it was premium accounts.

Highly unlikely this is the case.  The only club owners that would need Premium are those that purchased land on the mainland.  You don't need Premium to rent land anywhere, or to rent on any private region from a land baron, or to purchase a private island region from Linden Lab. 

Most club owners will absorb the costs from their venue tip jars, and probably will cut down posting for every event.  That means a DJ or artist will not be searchable in Events, since Search only looks for words in the Event Name.  This will cause unending joy to those here that think DJ's do not hold real events, that all clubs suck, and that there are only really 6 events/day in all of Second Life.  In other words the hermits who never use SL Events in the first place.

One of the clubs I go to has decided to only post one Event per day, listing all of the actual events in one Event , entirely to save more than one $50L/Event per day.  There will be no performer or DJ name in the Event name, meaning you can not search for a particular performer. Also this one daily event will roll off the list later in the day, making events after around 6pm SLT not visible.  Few are going to set the date back, or scroll back in past time to find an upcoming event.  Again, joyous news to all the club and DJ haters in this forum.

 

 

 

Edited December 5, 2019 by Jaylinbridges

[Selene Gregoire]

4 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

Highly unlikely this is the case.  The only club owners that would need Premium are those that purchased land on the mainland.  You don't need Premium to rent land anywhere, or to rent on any private region from a land baron, or to purchase a private island region from Linden Lab.  Most club owners will absorb the costs from their venue tip jars, and probably will cut down posting for every event.  That means a DJ or artist will not be searchable in Events, since Search only looks for words in the Event Name.  This will cause unending joy to those here that think DJ's do not hold real events, that all clubs suck, and that there are only really 6 events/day in all of Second Life.  In other words the hermits who never use SL Events in the first place.

One of the clubs I go to has decided to only post one Event per day, listing all of the actual events in one Event , entirely to save more than one $50L/Event per day.  There will be no performer or DJ name in the Event name, meaning you can not search for a particular performer. Also this one daily event will roll off the list later in the day, making events after around 7pm SLT not visible.  Few are going to set the date back, or scroll back in past time to find an upcoming event.  Again, joyous news to all the club and DJ haters in this forum.

 

 

 

1) It was meant to be humorous.

2) My RL other half not only DJs in SL, he has also DJed on radio stations in RL. Not to mention a couple of other managerial positions he has held at radio stations. Both of us have been in SL for more than 15 years.

[Jaylinbridges]

14 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

2) My RL other half not only DJs in SL, he has also DJed on radio stations in RL. Not to mention a couple of other managerial positions he has held at radio stations. Both of us have been in SL for more than 15 years.

Heh, I wasn't thinking of you being anti-DJ.  There are others posting here that I was thinking of, but you can't mention names here without a timeout for personal attacks. I also added more to my post not related to your Premium member humor, just venting my frustration with some other comments in this topic.  The DJ's and hostesses have also been told they can not post their own events now in this club, because it would upset the format, or something.  I expect not everyone will bend over to this new rule.

 

Edited December 5, 2019 by Jaylinbridges

[zannadu]

OK so we now get charged for every event posting. I wonder what the next trick will be, will we start getting charged for every croup notice. Is Liindon falling on hard times now and trying to make a few more lindon from us?

I think it is sad that members who run clubs and try to generate traffic for there dj's Dancers, or Escorts now have to do so at even more out of pocket coast.

 

[Alazarin Mondrian]

Whew! I managed to get my gig listings for my SL shows posted up to 1 year ahead before the fees came onstream. Yeah, it's a bit disappointing to have to pay L$10 per event listing that free was before but SL is Linden Lab's baby and they can do whatever they want with it even if we don't agree with their decisions. At least it's only a L$ transaction and not a mandatory quest & level-up before being allowed to post an events listing.

[Cindy Evanier]

9 minutes ago, Alazarin Mondrian said:

I managed to get my gig listings for my SL shows posted up to 1 year ahead before the fees came onstream.

Why on earth would you post 1 year ahead?  The venue closes.  The venue moves.  You are ill etc etc etc  and unless you go in and delete/edit the listings then its left there spamming the event calendar. 

[Alazarin Mondrian]

1 minute ago, Cindy Evanier said:

Why on earth would you post 1 year ahead?  The venue closes.  The venue moves.  You are ill etc etc etc  and unless you go in and delete/edit the listings then its left there spamming the event calendar. 

Aha, it's my own venue which isn't going anywhere 😉 And, yeah, once you make the event listing you can edit it later.

[Alazarin Mondrian]

On 12/3/2019 at 9:45 AM, Cinos Field said:

That wouldn't make broadcasting it any more legal to broadcast. DJ culture has always been kind of a a gray area. You'd go to the vinyl store, buy some music and then play those, but that's not actually enough to be legally in the clear. You'd also need a license to perform that music in public, and those cost quite a bit.

This goes doubly for "free" DJs like in SL, where few get paid anything significant beyond just tips, and mostly do it for fun. Technically it's probably against the law. But nobody would ever prosecute.

 

As an example of the legal position of performers [DJ's musicians, etc...] requiring licences to perform copyright works, I can offer my story:

I've been performing my own compositions for over 12 years in SL. About 3 years ago, I decided to start live streaming my shows onto YouTube and then Facebook. Shortly afterwards, I added a few cover versions to my live set to spice things up a bit. Then along came GDPR and Article 13. Suddenly I found myself slapped with an endless stream of copyright claims against my live stream videos that had been applied retroactively against me for unlicensed use of various cover versions as well as my own material! I was able to get around most of the copyright claims by either removing the offending tracks from my livestream videos or just deleting the videos. Led Zeppelin's publishers not only blocked the live stream videos that contained my cover version of the Immigrant Song, but made it impossible for me to delete the videos! All over 1/1000th of a penny of revenue! That's what happens when bots [based on the Shazam software] are deployed in a big way by publishing and record companies As for my own material, my distribution company was too lazy to even check that I was playing my own material on the internet so I had to provide them with a list off all my pieces they had lodged copyright claims against... wasting my time and Google's time. Grrr....

What I'm getting around to is that copyright enforcement is a real thing. From my experience, if your performance is a simple 'shout into the void' and is not recorded / archived in any way, then you'll probably be OK. As soon as your live stream is archived, your live stream will be parsed by a Shazam bot and copyright claims will be filed against you. Seriously, it takes only seconds. YouTube is policed quite rigorously. Facebook, less so.

While this is less of an issue for artists who perform their own material, it can be quite the showstopper for most DJ's and cover/tribute acts although it might turn out to be an interesting evolutionary spur in the DJ art form. In the UK, the governments' clampdown on Free Festivals in the mid-to-late 1980's led directly to the rave scene starting up. Free Festivals were actually quite extensive logistical exercises that were easily disrupted by police action which included impounding of sound systems and musical instruments. The original raves were short, sharp hits with disposable sound systems that were frequently abandoned by the time the police turned up to break up the party. Basically flashmobs with chipboard PA systems and a mixtape. in other words, the way people met up changed to reflect the changes. Similarly for DJ's. Rather than just spinning requests or playlists of copyright works, getting creative with loops, samples, beatboxes, etc., could be the way forward for DJ's [non-musician performers] to continue with their art form and not be shut down by copyright claims.

Edited December 5, 2019 by Alazarin Mondrian
grammar edits

[ChinRey]

12 minutes ago, Alazarin Mondrian said:

As for my own material, my distribution company was too lazy to even check that I was playing my own material on the internet so I had to provide them with a list off all my pieces they had lodged copyright claims against... wasting my time and Google's time. Grrr....

Count yourself lucky then. I once had to pay royalities to play my own music because I had been stupid enough to let a large music publisher publish it on paper. It's the kind of mistakes you do when you're too young and inexperienced to read and understand contracts.

I was lucky too actually since I caught on to it very soon and have been self-publishing ever since. I know of others who have lost fortunes this way.

[Maitimo]

Its my understanding that licensing for DJs streaming in SL is supposed to be handled by the stream provider (Shoutcadt etc). Whether they actually do, I couldn't say, but responsibility for streaming licenses would fall on them, not on individual DJs.

[Alazarin Mondrian]

38 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

 I once had to pay royalities to play my own music because I had been stupid enough to let a large music publisher publish it on paper.

Yikes!!! Did you sell the ownership of the pieces in question to the publishing company or license them to publish your work? If you made the mistake of selling them ownership of your work, then they have every right to sue you. I know, it sounds crazy, but that's how it works. If you simply licensed your works to the publishing company, they were just being opportunistic. If you are based in the UK, I strongly recommend that you contact the Musicians' Union and the PRS

[ChinRey]

1 hour ago, Alazarin Mondrian said:

Yikes!!! Did you sell the ownership of the pieces in question to the publishing company or license them to publish your work?

I only gave them publishing rights and it was only a few small pieces nobody plasy anymore too so no serious harm done.

 

1 hour ago, Alazarin Mondrian said:

If you simply licensed your works to the publishing company, they were just being opportunistic.

They did have the right. This was all about publishing. It was a tutorial for beginners and I wanted to reuse one of the pieces (just a small eight bar ditty) for a different book and sicne the new one was to be published itnernatinally, I couldn't use the same publisher. I did actually sign over some of the performing rights too but shortly afterwards Norwegian music schools decided to refuse to pay royalities (they're still getting away with it btw) so that didn't matter.

As I said, I was very lucky. I quit teaching a few years ago, I don't record much and only do a gig every now and then so my income from selling sheet music of educational work is quite important to me. Fortunately that publishing contract only applied to a single early book that never sold very well and is long out of print by now.

 

1 hour ago, Alazarin Mondrian said:

If you made the mistake of selling them ownership of your work, then they have every right to sue you. I know, it sounds crazy, but that's how it works.

What musicians should be particularly aware of these days, are digital rights and contracts may well have special clauses there. I know people who've made quite decent money from a few thousand listens on Spotify and another who have only made a few cents from millions. I don't know the details but it's certainly not Spotify that makes the difference.

[Qie Niangao]

3 hours ago, Alazarin Mondrian said:

Whew! I managed to get my gig listings for my SL shows posted up to 1 year ahead before the fees came onstream. Yeah, it's a bit disappointing to have to pay L$10 per event listing that free was before...

I counted. You saved almost US$ 6.

[Selene Gregoire]

4 hours ago, Matty Luminos said:

Its my understanding that licensing for DJs streaming in SL is supposed to be handled by the stream provider (Shoutcadt etc). Whether they actually do, I couldn't say, but responsibility for streaming licenses would fall on them, not on individual DJs.

Bingo! Someone finally said the right thing. It's on the stream provider, not the individual DJs.

Thank you, Matty.