Last names nearly here - and more. Yay!

[Adam Spark]

Just now, Drayke Newall said:

And yet you can play music whilst playing sports, just the same as you can play a game in SL.

Absolutely, just like you can play games in your RL living room. But that won't ever get crammed into a mobile app, either.

[Drayke Newall]

1 minute ago, Adam Spark said:

Absolutely, just like you can play games in your RL living room. But that won't ever get crammed into a mobile app, either.

Tell that to Pokémon Go or any other augmented reality app.

[Adam Spark]

Just now, Drayke Newall said:

Tell that to Pokémon Go or any other augmented reality app.

Putting SL on a mobile app would be akin to taking Pokemon Go, all those other augmented reality apps you mention, social media apps, and many others and putting them into a single app.

It would be cluster...

 

[Drayke Newall]

8 minutes ago, Adam Spark said:

Putting SL on a mobile app would be akin to taking Pokemon Go, all those other augmented reality apps you mention, social media apps, and many others and putting them into a single app.

It would be cluster...

 

And yet...

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.lockwoodpublishing.avakinlife

Just one of many. Also take note of the install and review demographic size of that one app (50,000,000+ install) that has no less capitalised on a market LL could have done with ease.

Edited November 23, 2019 by Drayke Newall
demographics info added

[Adam Spark]

54 minutes ago, RaeLeeH said:

I like this a lot. Possible? Probably not. There's a lot of names out there (or words in general) that are fine by some and offensive by others and trying to police the options would be more headache inducing than having a list of preset names that are (again, generally) semi-guaranteed not to offend, upset or belittle - an important aspect when dealing across multiple countries and cultures.

As for the rest:

At the risk of sounding like a yes-man I'm actually okay with the announcement. Yes to last names. Yes to Super Duper Premium Plus. Yes to fees. Why?

Last names is something a lot of people have wanted a long time. Premium Plus is just another option that LL doesn't actually -need- to introduce. They could stay as they are and have people curse them for lack of initiative and stagnation. As for fees Linden Lab is a business that has to walk a fine line between profit and customer satisfaction like any business does.

Don't want last names? Don't get one. Don't want Premium Plus? Don't get it. The fees may be harder to avoid but people still pay for coffee or pay TV or that expensive pair of jeans or whatever it is that gives them enjoyment in their everyday real lives, and if they don't like it they vote with their feet. Don't like what SL is doing? Find another alternative, or make it yourself if you think you can do better.

When all is said and done Second Life is a luxury, not a necessity - and before I'm reminded at how many people use SL to fill a need in their lives it's been said many times before. I for one happen to be one of those people and while I am happy here to whatever degree I will continue to pay. When the day comes that I'm not or I can't afford it then I'll have to walk away. There are enough struggles in the real world to contend with.

As the old adage says you can't please everyone all the time, though I applaud LL for trying. As well as for taking the time to listen to our concerns both for and against and for bothering to engage with us at all instead of lording behind a wall of administrative silence like they could and many others do.

THANK YOU Linden Lab (and thanks too @Jagix Linden for taking the time to put together that picture and trying to inject some levity at the start of this thread). 👍

❤️

I mostly agree with this except to point out that some people think beyond how it affects them. I care about the community (No, I am NOT saying you don't. Judging from what I've seen of you here I am sure you do). I won't like it if I see them doing something that I believe (rightly or wrongly) will negatively affect the community or does not make sense. I will fight to my death for Second Life and all that I think it can become, and if I see Linden Lab doing something that in my opinion (again, rightly or wrongly) is adverse to that in any way, I'll state it and go back to enjoying SL for what it does for me.

[Adam Spark]

15 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

And yet...

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.lockwoodpublishing.avakinlife

Just one of many. Also take note of the install and review demographic size of that one app (50,000,000+ install) that has no less capitalised on a market LL could have done with ease.

from app description: • Role Playing game with dozens of exciting locations! Go to clubs, the beach and many more places!

So in other words, nowhere near the 24,000+ regions of user created content in Second Life?

[Tari Landar]

24 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

And yet...

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.lockwoodpublishing.avakinlife

Just one of many. Also take note of the install and review demographic size of that one app (50,000,000+ install) that has no less capitalised on a market LL could have done with ease.

Have you ever actually played avakinlife?

I assure you, it is NOTHING like sl, it has requirements (of the system it's being used on) nothing like sl. The content is all specifically optimized and made for that app and that app alone. While yes you can do a lot of things, you can't do remotely half the things it's advertised as (I'm not knocking it-it's a nice app, I know loads who use it, it has its merit and that's noteworthy in and of itself) allowing. Not every aspect of that game is "live" at the same time. Let me explain that part a bit better (and I am NOT debating whether one method is better or the other, it's irrelevant)l). In sl, for the most part, all regions are always up (not including any that might be temporarily down for whatever reason, or only come up seasonally/for events). That means they are always live, and always, to some extent, using resources. A huge portion of the somewhat comparable counterpart in avakinlife, is not. There are areas that are only "up" or "live" specifically when in use, otherwise...think of them as being closed, lol. The mere content of avakinlife is nothing like it is in sl, like, really, really, really not comparable, at all.

You're comparing sneakers to pineapples. 

 

[Lucia Nightfire]

SL would be ok for mobile had LL not shelved the quarterly script feature additions at the end of 2013 when they split their workforce so a third of the staff could march off to the abyss of Sansar development.

I could see people logging on to SL on mobile to play in-world games that rival performance and operation of gaming apps, but we need dedicated scripted functions, more game creation tools & camera/sound/animation reform.

Animesh was another component, but its finally here, albeit it needs body shape support and especially attach point support to facilitate common gaming mechanics.

[Drayke Newall]

36 minutes ago, Adam Spark said:

from app description: • Role Playing game with dozens of exciting locations! Go to clubs, the beach and many more places!

So in other words, nowhere near the 24,000+ regions of user created content in Second Life?

That's irrelevant and would simply come down to thinking outside the box of which LL have proven time and again to not be able to keep up with the current environment.

Fact is that LL could have easily done it but instead poured their profit into the flop Sansar.

For example, just off the top of my head they create a city space like the new residential area (cant remember the name) whereby it is a city scape with residences around and lock the mobile client to just that area only but allow all SL residents to teleport there. This means that the actual cache is limited to just that zone on mobile meaning the 3D and texture assets could be installed with the client, with the only things requiring a cache system being avatar textures, unless they are stored in the cloud to render. Any user created clubs, shops etc. can submit their textures etc. to Lab and in a weekly or monthly update include those textures as part of the mobile package like a DLC prior to the venue opening. 

This provides the best of both worlds it would also mean potential new users from the mobile client looking into the "full" second life experience and also allow SL users to mingle on the go without the large cache and load issues that would be present. Clubs, hangouts etc. are in the city and homes could be in a residential zoned instanced area.

Avakin is a mobile app yet has all of what SL offers albeit smaller scale but is far more successful with over 100 million accounts and 6 million users active per month and 1 million per day.

Not only that, but since the very beginning of SL's boom in 2006 LL had tried to get more RL commercial companies to participate, and yet here we have a smaller company with 22,000 affiliate companies providing products for in world residents from the likes of Nike, Oakly, Bloomingdale etc. All purchasable etc.

21 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

Have you ever actually played avakinlife?

I assure you, it is NOTHING like sl, it has requirements (of the system it's being used on) nothing like sl. The content is all specifically optimized and made for that app and that app alone. While yes you can do a lot of things, you can't do remotely half the things it's advertised as (I'm not knocking it-it's a nice app, I know loads who use it, it has its merit and that's noteworthy in and of itself) allowing. Not every aspect of that game is "live" at the same time. Let me explain that part a bit better (and I am NOT debating whether one method is better or the other, it's irrelevant)l). In sl, for the most part, all regions are always up (not including any that might be temporarily down for whatever reason, or only come up seasonally/for events). That means they are always live, and always, to some extent, using resources. A huge portion of the somewhat comparable counterpart in avakinlife, is not. There are areas that are only "up" or "live" specifically when in use, otherwise...think of them as being closed, lol. The mere content of avakinlife is nothing like it is in sl, like, really, really, really not comparable, at all.

You're comparing sneakers to pineapples. 

Yes, I have played it and know how it works however it most certainly isn't comparing sneakers to pineapples. It just requires thought, effort and a bit of work. That said, if LL actually moved SL's assets to AWS and the cloud well before now they could have easily set it up to run on the same on/off principle that avakinlife uses. Additionally if LL set it up like I explained above whereby they have a specific zoned area locked to mobile it can behave the same way.

Just because SL runs better on a PC doesn't mean that a smaller platform can't be designed to be used in tandem with mobile all in the same virtual space.

There is no reason why a mobile experience needs to offer everything the PC version offers and vice versa. Such thinking leads the same situation LL are in now whereby they are becoming irrelevant to the newer generations which is all mobile with fewer and fewer buying desktops or laptops.

Edited November 23, 2019 by Drayke Newall

[Tari Landar]

7 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

Yes, I have played it and know how it works however it most certainly isn't comparing sneakers to pineapples. It just requires thought, effort and a bit of work. That said, if LL actually moved SL's assets to AWS and the cloud well before now they could have easily set it up to run on the same on/off principle that avakinlife uses. Additionally if LL set it up like I explained above whereby they have a specific zoned area locked to mobile it can behave the same way.

Just because SL runs better on a PC doesn't mean that a smaller platform can't be designed to be used in tandem with mobile all in the same virtual space.

You seem to be under the impression that I somewhere in my statement said that sl can't run on mobile devices. I said, nor even implied, any such thing-that would be a stupidly asinine thing to say, because of course it can. However, the mobile device uses we have had/have, had/have limitations and did not run sl in its "full" stae, or entirety- or whatever term you want to use to call it, because it requires specific modifications made first. To take that a bit further, I do not believe LL has the resources, currently, to make such a move, because they're busy doing damage control as it is regarding certain, admittedly all but failed at this point, projects and trying to maintain and increase the current value of the project that is sl. Simply put....they ain't got time for mobile device use development, atm. 

You are, very much, comparing sneakers to pineapples if you are even attempting to compare what sl is NOW to what avakinlife is NOW. They are not comparable, even if both can be modified and/or changed to be more like the other (I never said otherwise), or run on similar devices. The heavy modification that is needed, is one reason they cannot be compared properly (or truthfully), but the main reason boils down to assets and components which are 100% not comparable between the two. Anyone who has played both can tell that, lmao. 

 

[Drayke Newall]

17 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

You seem to be under the impression that I somewhere in my statement said that sl can't run on mobile devices. I said, nor even implied, any such thing-that would be a stupidly asinine thing to say, because of course it can. However, the mobile device uses we have had/have, had/have limitations and did not run sl in its "full" stae, or entirety- or whatever term you want to use to call it, because it requires specific modifications made first. To take that a bit further, I do not believe LL has the resources, currently, to make such a move, because they're busy doing damage control as it is regarding certain, admittedly all but failed at this point, projects and trying to maintain and increase the current value of the project that is sl. Simply put....they ain't got time for mobile device use development, atm. 

That wasn't aimed at you, was just more a generalisation at the end of my post for Adam & Co.

Quote

You are, very much, comparing sneakers to pineapples if you are even attempting to compare what sl is NOW to what avakinlife is NOW. They are not comparable, even if both can be modified and/or changed to be more like the other (I never said otherwise), or run on similar devices. The heavy modification that is needed, is one reason they cannot be compared properly (or truthfully), but the main reason boils down to assets and components which are 100% not comparable between the two. Anyone who has played both can tell that, lmao. 

I'm not comparing the two though. Of course they are entirely different beasts all with the own uniqueness. That said, just because they are different doesn't mean that SL on a mobile cant work or would be irrelevant which, is what both Adam Sparks and Thorinll have stated as being the case and what my response was to. I used avakinlife as an example in response to Adam Sparks stating that a virtual world on a mobile device entailing very similar aspects to SL would not work and would be a cluster.

Whilst yes I admit avakinlife is vastly different I in no way implied that SL is the same as them. I was just showing that it can be done if the money is there. The basis that on the cloud SL has the potential to work on mobile is what I was saying in the same way avakinlife can in response to your post.

You even admit that the potential is there but LL finances aren't due to Sansar and I fully agree and is why they should have just made SL2 and allow that to be the mobile client as well.

I.e. one client for PC and the other for mobile but both use the same avatar. Mark Kingdon (as much as he was hated) was looking into trying to do this very thing but couldn't due to security risk, aka opensim and sl.

Edited November 23, 2019 by Drayke Newall

[Adam Spark]

32 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

For example, just off the top of my head they create a city space like the new residential area (cant remember the name) whereby it is a city scape with residences around and lock the mobile client to just that area only but allow all SL residents to teleport there. This means that the actual cache is limited to just that zone on mobile meaning the 3D and texture assets could be installed with the client, with the only things requiring a cache system being avatar textures, unless they are stored in the cloud to render. Any user created clubs, shops etc. can submit their textures etc. to Lab and in a weekly or monthly update include those textures as part of the mobile package like a DLC prior to the venue opening. 

In short, Second Life could run on a mobile client if it became something it isn't. Fair enough.

What you are basically suggesting is akin to, say, the bellissera continent  becoming the app. But even in Bellissera, where the general area including the homes, roads, most foliage, ect., are curated by the Lab, real-time object activity is a MUST HAVE. I am decorating for Christmas currently. You are seriously suggesting a scenerio where I submit user created decoration to Linden Lab for an update on their chosen time frame?

How can one even make this up?

[Drayke Newall]

51 minutes ago, Adam Spark said:

In short, Second Life could run on a mobile client if it became something it isn't. Fair enough.

What you are basically suggesting is akin to, say, the bellissera continent  becoming the app. But even in Bellissera, where the general area including the homes, roads, most foliage, ect., are curated by the Lab, real-time object activity is a MUST HAVE. I am decorating for Christmas currently. You are seriously suggesting a scenerio where I submit user created decoration to Linden Lab for an update on their chosen time frame?

How can one even make this up?

No, do you know how the cloud works and how instanced zones work? I said venues submit those things, you know, high demand massive shops or clubs etc which are huge download demands when downloading in large spaces. Since when is a house a venue lmao. I even stated the house zone could be instanced. As far as Bellissera goes why do you think LL repeat the style and textures of homes in the area and don't care about smaller objects within the house. I'll give you a clue, its the same reason why I said venues submit their textures..

Plus its an EXAMPLE I gave. In other words not everything is stated or thought out. Do you seriously think a CEO of a company brings to a meeting the entire system already worked out. No, he says I want this and that and think it could work like this and leaves the details to be thought out later of what can and cant be done.

I have never understood why so many SL residents are hell bent on a mobile client. Its as if they think it will destroy SL and not improve it.

Edited November 23, 2019 by Drayke Newall

[Pussycat Catnap]

2 hours ago, Adam Spark said:

The biggest difference is that Second Life is not a game and that mobile gaming is a completely different category from virtual worlds. Its like comparing sports with music.

Wishing it so doesn't make it so.

The technology is identical.

The only thing about SL that makes it not an MMO is the players saying it's not an MMO.

 

[ThorinII]

1 hour ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

The only thing about SL that makes it not an MMO is the players saying it's not an MMO.

Actually, from *my* point of view there are no "SL players": They're SL residents.

Just like you can't play Real Life itself, but in Real Life, you can't play Second Life either (you can play in Second Life, though).

SL is not an MMO, but a Virtual World. An MMO has optimized company-created content, given goals, levels, even a given story in most cases -- all things which SL itself does not have.

[Pussycat Catnap]

3 minutes ago, ThorinII said:

Actually, from *my* point of view there are no "SL players": They're SL residents.

SL is not an MMO, but a Virtual World.

That's meaningless from a technology point of view. That's just how the players choose to use the game.

[Mollymews]

soo anyways about them last names

Linden could make a last name Mobile. Then I could be like Totes Mobile 😸

[Drayke Newall]

43 minutes ago, ThorinII said:

Actually, from *my* point of view there are no "SL players": They're SL residents.

Just like you can't play Real Life itself, but in Real Life, you can't play Second Life either (you can play in Second Life, though).

SL is not an MMO, but a Virtual World. An MMO has optimized company-created content, given goals, levels, even a given story in most cases -- all things which SL itself does not have.

Of course you don't play real life you live it. You do however 'Role Play' a second life living the life of your avatar therefore you are a player and the fact that you are a resident defines that you Role Play it. Anything you say otherwise is most certainly not fact or based on any evidence whatsoever.

You also do realise that all MMO stands for is Massive Multiplayer online. The very definition of what is online comes after MMO. So you can have MMOFPS, MMORPG, MMOVW etc. A Sandbox MMO doesn't necessarily have to have a point or goal to it either. Social activity such as SL is also classed as a MMO and is known as MMOSG (Massive Multiplayer Online Social Game) something that is new terminology and never existed when SL was the only one of its kind but does now.

As to whether SL has a given goal (which you and others identify as the definition of a game) that is debateable. After all, one could 'play' SL with the goal of making money, or building, or indeed finding a new friend. Just as I can play WoW as only a PvP player or RP wanting the social or Role Play aspect of it and not any Bethesda created content, reward or gaol.

Additionally you describe Second life as a Virtual world and yet Philip Rosedale made SL with the goal as a social experiment and has defined SL in 2006 interviews as a platform. I.E. the same as something where you play games on. This is the true definition of second life, not a virtual world or a game as such but a place where people make their own experiences and games and uses the Second Life "platform" to showcase them.

Funnily enough exactly what Sansar was intended to be which by all accounts would mean Sansar was SL2 just done differently 😱.

Edited November 23, 2019 by Drayke Newall

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

4 hours ago, Adam Spark said:

Absolutely, just like you can play games in your RL living room. But that won't ever get crammed into a mobile app, either.

I'd be concerned if SL became an app only thing. I actually hit a website other day saying "We've gone mobile only" with the IOS and Android icons on the screen.

[JUSTUS Palianta]

i still wish i can build and or set items for sale in SL on my phone at the moment all i can do is pester my friends and groups in im, lol.  i agree we need to future proof SL, and young people are only using there phones.  the day of the personal computer is over, why is linden building a platform that requires a powerful expensive personal computer when the future market shows 0 interest in it.  will sansar be playable on mobile phone ... if not it is dead on arrival.

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

6 minutes ago, JUSTUS Palianta said:

i still wish i can build and or set items for sale in SL on my phone at the moment all i can do is pester my friends and groups in im, lol.  i agree we need to future proof SL, and young people are only using there phones.  the day of the personal computer is over, why is linden building a platform that requires a powerful expensive personal computer when the future market shows 0 interest in it.  will sansar be playable on mobile phone ... if not it is dead on arrival.

Days of the computer is long from being over. Nowadays you can move information between the computer and the smart phone using the sync thing. As for Sansar, tried it and moved on.

[Drayke Newall]

8 minutes ago, JUSTUS Palianta said:

will sansar be playable on mobile phone ... if not it is dead on arrival.

No it isn't or will it be on phone as you need to download 5-10 gig of data for each experience to load. It is already DoA as it is still in early alpha stage with years to go to release. The graphics themselves are subpar even now so what they would look like compared to the opposition when it is released one can only imagine.

[JUSTUS Palianta]

I don't want to see SL become a app only thing, but some app options may of caused SL to grow instead of shrink.  The declining user base and increase in fees is a serious issue for concern if you are a creator.  You cant really choose the fashion you can only roll with it and younger people just don't have the same attachment to there personal computer as older peeps do.

[Drayke Newall]

18 minutes ago, JUSTUS Palianta said:

I don't want to see SL become a app only thing, but some app options may of caused SL to grow instead of shrink.  The declining user base and increase in fees is a serious issue for concern if you are a creator.  You cant really choose the fashion you can only roll with it and younger people just don't have the same attachment to there personal computer as older peeps do.

Its getting to be a little to late for LL to act on things though. With their disastrous Sansar release of something no one wanted and their slow move to anything VR (i.e. SL2 that everyone wanted) the effort they are showing such as this new premium membership tier seems to be a drastic last ditch or life boat.

I will post this as an example as to why Linden Lab need a fire set under them. Epic Games CEO has already hinted at wanting to create a virtual world and with their engine behind them (the most realistic graphics engine currently and run on the latest scripting system not a made up and never updated scripting system) and their userbase, if they do create one they will wipe the floor with LL. Especially if they manage to create it anywhere near what was seen in the movie Ready Player One, which with their game store now released is possible.

In February they did this in Fortnite https://www.roadtovr.com/fornite-virtual-concert-potent-glimpse-of-virtual-reality-future/ , broke a RL world record, boosted a band up in the RL music charts as well as showcased the future of VR and VW's all within a free2play game that isn't either. Also notice the lack of SL, Sansar or Linden Lab mentioned anywhere in the article. I cant recall SL having such an effect in the RL space since the 2006 Hype.

Edited November 23, 2019 by Drayke Newall

[JUSTUS Palianta]

I heard about that concert because i love that type of music.  That used to be SL we heard about on the news and in the media.  That is how i found SL.  Now when you google SL the first thing that pops up is ... is Second Life still even a thing ...