Last names nearly here - and more. Yay!

[Grumpity Linden]

On 11/23/2019 at 2:27 PM, Alyona Su said:

It also depends on how you read it: If you change your name, you can keep your first name (because that is 100% elective) - but must choose a last name (as part of the name change process). In that case you are changing "one" name. Perhaps @Grumpity Linden can clarify this, I'd love to be told by an official that my perception is wrong, but until then, this is what I'm sticking with. So I'll either be vindicated or pleasantly wronged, because I'd love to be able to change only my first name, but I'm not going to lend to hope that will be an option.

 

I love pleasantly wronging pessimists, so we both win.  You can chose to change your First Name, your Last Name, or both First and Last in one fell swoop. 

On 11/23/2019 at 2:59 PM, Bree Giffen said:

Is it possible to start a premium account with a last name and drop to basic right away? Not that I'm planning anything. I have my last names.

It's possible, sure. That new name is yours to keep regardless of your future membership level. Obviously we hope one may find Premium a valuable enough proposition to stick around :)!

[Alyona Su]

6 hours ago, Grumpity Linden said:

I love pleasantly wronging pessimists, so we both win.  You can chose to change your First Name, your Last Name, or both First and Last in one fell swoop. 

It's possible, sure. That new name is yours to keep regardless of your future membership level. Obviously we hope one may find Premium a valuable enough proposition to stick around :)!

Yay! Thank you for officially stating this! ~Runs to a couple dozen "baby-namer" websites to start finding the just-right new first name~ (And it will take me as long to decide on one as it will for Linden Lab to finish and release this feature) Hahaha!

[Dolly Waifu]

On 11/21/2019 at 2:16 PM, Tari Landar said:

Lmao, no, not even close. That's NOT a pressing issue, it's an issue, but it's not pressing, at all, just obnoxious (and I doubt it's actually going to be fixed, at all, LL has stated numerous times, it won't be, because they don't consider it a problem, it's being used as they expect).  The bit you quoted doesn't actually address the issue mayn people have with gachas and where they're categorized anyway, lol.

I am speaking of the issue regarding why things get removed, unlisted, (no no words lists) etc..and how LL is handling this whole debacle-which is getting worse and worse. You'd have to read the forum to probably understand why it's such a pressing issue, or be/know someone affected by it, especially in the recent bouts. There's one relatively newer thread about it, but there are countless others that have all addressed this very annoying problem over the years. It's something causing merchants to leave MP, slow (or stop) putting things on MP, be hesitant to make changes to their stores at all, and all kinds of other problems. It really is the most pressing problem with MP, without a doubt, as it is 100% negative for all, even people that think they're not affected. How this gets handled, fixed, prevented, is going to ste the pace for the future of the MP if it keeps going at the rate it currently is (which has grown exponentially). 

It does address the issue in a way that is manageable for LL. Things will still be miscategorized, but gachas are nearly always listed as limited quantity items, and few other things are, so the ability to filter them out will immensely reduce the amount seen in searches. There was no need to "lmao" at me and be so rude and patronizing simply because I was incorrect. I get that you're very passionate about your issue, but there's no need to take it out on other users.

I had a quick look at the merchant section of the forums before posting that and didn't see what you were talking about. The gacha issue is the only thing i'd really heard about with any regularity with regards to the marketplace. I can see how the issue of things being unlisted seemingly at random would be one that people feel would need addressing ASAP, but you didn't mention that in your first post. You beat around the bush and implied that we just needed to be there to understand.

Edited November 26, 2019 by Reyetta Claven
wording

[Drayke Newall]

9 hours ago, Reyetta Claven said:

It does address the issue in a way that is manageable for LL. Things will still be miscategorized, but gachas are nearly always listed as limited quantity items, and few other things are, so the ability to filter them out will immensely reduce the amount seen in searches.

The problem comes as to how LL intend to filter them out. For years they only added category sections or tick boxes and these not only frustrate the merchant who has to put them into their own category but it also frustrates the buyer who has to go searching through a growing category list just to filter out what they want. Additionally if something is miscategorised by mistake then it means those merchants cant get the items they want or if the item can come under multiple categories it forces a lot of merchants to place items under multiple categories.

The other method to filter out results is using the Boolean operators (e.g. house NOT gacha). This was a much needed addition however Linden Lab in all their wisdom limited it to product titles and therefore the filtering is easily bypassed by not including the word gacha in the title but instead in the description. If LL were smart they would make the Boolean operators to encompass both the product title as well as the description and keywords and it will resolve a lot of the issues.

That said, if they allowed the Boolean operators to work in the descriptions as well then people would bypass this by not adding the word gacha into the title or description and just use an image which is impossible to use filter operations on. 

LL will forever be chasing their tail when it comes to the marketplace and incorrect listings as no matter what they introduce there is always a bypass and they can only go so far with it. The only way LL can solve this issue is to moderate the marketplace and remove listings if they are found to be not listed correctly forcing a reupload and additional listing fees by the merchant (a fine so to speak).

Edited November 27, 2019 by Drayke Newall

[Tari Landar]

11 hours ago, Reyetta Claven said:

It does address the issue in a way that is manageable for LL. Things will still be miscategorized, but gachas are nearly always listed as limited quantity items, and few other things are, so the ability to filter them out will immensely reduce the amount seen in searches. There was no need to "lmao" at me and be so rude and patronizing simply because I was incorrect. I get that you're very passionate about your issue, but there's no need to take it out on other users.

I had a quick look at the merchant section of the forums before posting that and didn't see what you were talking about. The gacha issue is the only thing i'd really heard about with any regularity with regards to the marketplace. I can see how the issue of things being unlisted seemingly at random would be one that people feel would need addressing ASAP, but you didn't mention that in your first post. You beat around the bush and implied that we just needed to be there to understand.

I'm sorry you found it patronizing or rude, that lmao was more so because the changes to gachas are an odd addition, given the current(ongoing) issues with the MP . The ability to filter them doesn't address the one problem a lot of people had/have with gachas in many of the discussions merchants have had, and the way LL has recently handled that entire topic (they added a gacha category but did not make it mandatory to be used, and don't require anyone to use it, and they thought that would make people happy...but it didn't). Gachas are an issue on MP, no doubt, and the filter is a nice addition, it just doesn't address another concern people have with gachas that is also important (an issue they have assured us they don't intend to fix, they said it's working as intended..hence why it peeves people off)

As for the topics, I'm just going to link some of them here...that way people won't have to read more of my rant, but maybe can understand why I'm utterly peeved (and not alone in that) with LL and..well, most things they do related to the MP, especially right now. Merchants don't need new filters right now when LL is delisting things at an alarming rate..but I digress..please...read the threads, please. Ask other merchants if you feel I'm being overly ridiculous about something. I may seem so..but I'm really not

The first thread is probably the most helpful when trying to understand this problem, as it discusses the most recent bout. It's costing merchants quite a lot, causing entire stores and sections of stores to be removed, and LL's response is "Ooops. Find the problem, send us a ticket for each item we removed, and we'll get back to you", when we get a response at all (yes, I'm serious). There really have been a lot of threads over the years discussing the flags and unlisting of items for no real reason. I'm not just ranting about that for no reason, I have cause to..it's a HUGE problem, and it is 100% something that LL did, and not something merchants can fix or even prevent. 

https://community.secondlife.com/forums/topic/443536-automatically-unlisted-items-whats-going-on/
https://community.secondlife.com/forums/topic/443723-automatic-unlist-offending-words/
https://community.secondlife.com/forums/topic/444296-forbidden-words/
https://community.secondlife.com/forums/topic/433079-help-whats-offensive/

 

 

[Drayke Newall]

2 hours ago, Tari Landar said:

https://community.secondlife.com/forums/topic/443536-automatically-unlisted-items-whats-going-on/

https://community.secondlife.com/forums/topic/443723-automatic-unlist-offending-words/
https://community.secondlife.com/forums/topic/444296-forbidden-words/
https://community.secondlife.com/forums/topic/433079-help-whats-offensive/

I think this is hilarious and haven't scrolled that far in the forums for a while so missed it. Frustrating I'm sure for merchants like you Tari, but an absolute hilarious failure on Linden Lab's behalf.

This quote from Reed Linden really shows their ineptitude of the whole trademark law completely to the point that it is embarrassing and will be concentrating my response here on it. Bolding emphasis mine.

Quote

What happened was that we updated our filters to take into account some copyright and trademark protected words and phrases, and the filter was a bit too aggressive in blocking words that were "similar enough" to trip the flag in a way that we were not expecting prior to updating the list.

Firstly, you can't copyright a word or phrase and the suggestion of such a thing is laughable and puts into question their credibility. I hope this was simply a slip up in their post. Secondly the whole trademark response is equally laughable and shows just how sub par the Lab has gone this time. If they are to continue down the avenue of banning trademarked names within listings or offensive words because they are in a different language etc., then there wont be any words to use in marketplace listings.

Touching on the trademark issue. Trademarks are not based solely on the word itself and any argument that they are all inclusive and therefore must be added to a filter to remove them from products is ridiculous. For example, what is going to happen when they add Apple to the list of banned words. The word Apple is listed as a trademarked name as is aqua, aperture, bonjour, carbon, Chicago, Cocoa, Finder, Geneva, the list goes on and all trademarked by Apple (yes city names too just like I posted).

Furthermore trademarks as mentioned can be on a per country basis. For example if the person in Australia who owned Burger King (trademark in Australia has lapsed though now, but using it as an example) uploaded a burger shop and has the words Burger King on it are they then liable for the listing to be taken down despite Burger King being trademarked by a different company in Australia, which is the reason why America's Burger King is called Hungry Jacks in Australia? How do they determine who owns what trademark. Is it based on "LL is an American company therefore American trademark law prevails"? What happens when they move everything to AWS and the item is stored on an Australian based server?

I mean, heaven help all those people that list 'Computer' as part of their listing, as the word is trademarked in Australia to a clothing company and has been since 1987 https://search.ipaustralia.gov.au/trademarks/search/view/460305/details. Trademarks are ALWAYS in relation to their own category not the word by itself (images, logo's etc. being an entirely different ballgame). If Linden Lab's new tools take into consideration both word and category then fine but otherwise, they really need to stop with this nonsense or pathetic excuses to portray that their filtering is correct.

As to other words. One of the threads you posted apparently talks about the world "Loli" being banned or something or rather in marketplace listings. If this is the case, does that mean as an Australian my (if I had any one as such) marketplace listing of "Lollies" would also be removed despite Lollies in Australia meaning a sweet like a lollipop and it being a close variation of the plural of Loli?.

I think there comes a time when a company goes to far with filtering and by the looks of it Linden Lab can be added to that list. If they want to ban a trademarked word, then they should just ban that word and that word only not all possible variations and base it on how trademarks are truly identified.

I also know that from other posts you have made in those threads Tori, that you know basically what I have posted above but seems like people in here needed the above explanation as well as hopefully to bring it to LL attention.  To be honest if they don't change their filtering, I'm of a mind to give that clothing company in Australia a phone call and try and get all computers banned off of marketplace just in spite.

Edited November 27, 2019 by Drayke Newall

[Vanity Fair]

I've always lived in fear that the Condé Nast lawyers would come after me because of my name!

Of course, I could always tell them that I named myself after the 1848 novel by by William Makepeace Thackeray 😉

[Caerolle Llewellyn]

5 minutes ago, Vanity Fair said:

I've always lived in fear that the Condé Nast lawyers would come after me because of my name!

Of course, I could always tell them that I named myself after the 1848 novel by by William Makepeace Thackeray 😉

Have you read it? I shook my head a lot while reading it, but it was a good read.

[Vanity Fair]

3 minutes ago, Caerolle Llewellyn said:

Have you read it? I shook my head a lot while reading it, but it was a good read.

Yes and I loved it! Becky Sharp is quite the character.

[Caerolle Llewellyn]

Just now, Vanity Fair said:

Yes and I loved it! Becky Sharp is quite the character.

Quite the narcissistic, manipulative, destructive force, lol. But a fascinating, charming character, for sure.

[wesleytron]

On 11/26/2019 at 6:08 AM, Grumpity Linden said:

You can chose to change your First Name, your Last Name, or both First and Last in one fell swoop. 

So... what if I don't have a last name to begin with?

Let's say I only want to change the one name I have got, does that mean I can ignore the second name selection and just come away with a new single-word name? In other words, can I remain 'Resident' if I wanted? For instance, maybe I'm tired of Wesleytron, I want to be Wesleytron7845 instead, with no surname.

Or, once the process has begun, am I obligated to pick a second name to go with my new choice of 'first' name?

Edited November 27, 2019 by wesleytron

[Alyona Su]

2 hours ago, wesleytron said:

So... what if I don't have a last name to begin with?

Let's say I only want to change the one name I have got, does that mean I can ignore the second name selection and just come away with a new single-word name? In other words, can I remain 'Resident' if I wanted? For instance, maybe I'm tired of Wesleytron, I want to be Wesleytron7845 instead, with no surname.

Or, once the process has begun, am I obligated to pick a second name to go with my new choice of 'first' name?

According to Grumpity - yes - you can change only the first name. As for the last name - you do have one, it is "Resident".

[wesleytron]

1 hour ago, Alyona Su said:

According to Grumpity - yes - you can change only the first name. As for the last name - you do have one, it is "Resident".

Yes, it was @Grumpity Linden's post I was responding to, which to me didn't seem as clear-cut as it maybe did to you. 

My reading of "You can chose to change your First Name, your Last Name, or both" sort of presupposes you have both already. Maybe that does include 'Resident' as you say, but it's already been said in this thread by @Adam Spark that 'Resident' is not a true last name, "You only really have one name if your last name is Resident" ('Resident' rarely appears as part of my name inworld and is not needed to log in):

On 11/22/2019 at 1:58 AM, Adam Spark said:

Resident is not a true last name. Its a placeholder for old scripts and systems that look for a first and last name from the way things used to be. You really only have one name if your "last name" is Resident.

But then maybe the 'placeholder' status works for the purposes of selecting something different (and leaving 'as is' if you just want to change your one name)

...which now begs the question: can someone who already has a second name select 'Resident' from the list and become known by one name?! (If their name of choice is available of course!)

Edited November 27, 2019 by wesleytron

[Alyona Su]

10 minutes ago, wesleytron said:

Yes, it was @Grumpity Linden's post I was responding to, which to me didn't seem as clear-cut as it maybe did to you. 

My reading of "You can chose to change your First Name, your Last Name, or both" sort of presupposes you have both already. Maybe that does include 'Resident' as you say, but it's already been said in this thread by @Adam Spark that 'Resident' is not a true last name, "You only really have one name if your last name is Resident" ('Resident' rarely appears as part of my name inworld and is not needed to log in):

But then maybe the 'placeholder' status works for the purposes of selecting something different.

...which now begs the question: can someone who already has a second name select 'Resident' from the list and become known by one name?! (If their name of choice is available of course!)

Resident is a true last name because the system requires the two-name paradigm. He says it's not a "true" last name because you didn't get to choose it (and it's a generic term, not a surname). All they did was flag that name in the Viewer code to hide it. But if you look at any gadget that scans avatars, your name is wesleytron Resident - no matter what you do or try. Also, they have set it so when you log into anything, or anyone looks you up, if no second name is provided then resident is presumed. But older scripts or gadget where you type a name into chat? You have to add the "resident" to the name for it to work.This is why many call it a "place-holder" and that is a correct description for all intents and purposes.

So to anyone who first signed up after the last names list was discontinued may not realize or care about the Resident for a last name. Those here before that time will always know your last name is Resident.  It's not a bad thing at all. It is unfortunate some people will 'look down their nose' the people with that last name because they think (mistakenly) that SL age is important for some reason. LOL

I wouldn't worry about it. Though you may want to consider choosing a last name from the lists if you're going to pay for it. That's half the fun!  

Edited November 27, 2019 by Alyona Su

[wesleytron]

13 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

Those here before that time will always know your last name is Resident.  It's not a bad thing at all. It is unfortunate some people will 'look down their nose' the people with that last name because

Oh, I'm not bothered about any of that! I don't care what other people may think of my lack of a second name!

13 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

I wouldn't;t worry about it. Though you may want to consider choosing a last name from the lists if you're going to pay for it. That's half the fun!  

Nah, I'm not worried, I'm just asking hypothetically really. Just curious about what may or may not be possible (although I do like the idea of just adding a number to the end of my one name and doing the opposite of why others might want a name change :p)

Edited November 27, 2019 by wesleytron

[Alyona Su]

Just now, wesleytron said:

Oh, I'm not bothered about any of that! I don't care what other people may think of my lack of a second name status!

Nah, I'm not worried, I'm just asking hypothetically really. Just curious about what may or may not be possible (although I do like the idea of just adding a number to the end of my one name and doing the opposite of why others might want a name change :p)

Well, I'm interested I changing only my first name (because I didn't;t know what I was doing when I signed-up, so I have a Russian First name and a Chinese last name LOL). Based on the way the old system worked, you can write in anything for first name but have to choose a last name. Then Grumpy made that statement: "change one or both"  - so I asked for clarification if I can change only my first name and not have to choose a new last name and it was confirmed!  

[Adam Spark]

18 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

Those here before that time will always know your last name is Resident.

Not me. Here since 2006. I saw the discontinuation of last names as just that. The system just put Resident next to your name for you to satisfy backwards compatibility. If you picked Avenger20587, that is how I always viewed your name to be, regardless of how the system needed to identify you. Thats why I don't view Resident as a true last name. Your name to me has always been and will always be the name you selected.

[Theresa Tennyson]

50 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

Resident is a true last name because the system requires the two-name paradigm.

Technically, the "last name" of someone who doesn't pick one from a list is a machine-readable version of the number 10327.
 

[Drayke Newall]

1 hour ago, Adam Spark said:

Not me. Here since 2006. I saw the discontinuation of last names as just that. The system just put Resident next to your name for you to satisfy backwards compatibility. If you picked Avenger20587, that is how I always viewed your name to be, regardless of how the system needed to identify you. Thats why I don't view Resident as a true last name. Your name to me has always been and will always be the name you selected.

I must have been the only one from those early years that never wanted a pre-selected last name and would have much preferred none at all and just the first name.

So whilst I don't see personally the desire for a last name change @wesleytron and you stating that you don't view resident as a last name does bring up an interesting question. Will the last name Resident be selectable (on an all the time basis) should one want to have that last name or wish (other than in scripts like @Alyona Su stated) to appear as one (who is post 2009 resident) does now of only the first name in profiles etc?

Edited November 28, 2019 by Drayke Newall

[wesleytron]

38 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

Will the last name Resident be selectable (on an all the time basis) should one want to have that last name or wish

Yeah, I was wondering that too and asked that question as well at the end of my earlier post.

Basically, will those who currently have a last name be able to disown their second name entirely by selecting 'Resident' from a list? I don't know.

If they can, the only problem with that will be that their current first name might not actually be available without a second name, as it's likely already taken.

Edited November 28, 2019 by wesleytron

[missyrideout]

I wonder what the story is with case sensitivity and old names. I often see people with a lowercase first name / last name combination. Was it possible for jane Doe and Jane Doe to coexist at some point? Or are they one and the same with the presentation depending on the initial registration? Is it possible to "correct" such a name with these upcoming changes? 

I think a lower case first name would tweak me more than Resident, at least Resident is hidden. If I were missy Rideout I'd be looking forward to name changes for that reason alone. What's in a name? Apparently a whole heck of a lot. 

[Adam Spark]

46 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

I must have been the only one from those early years that never wanted a pre-selected last name and would have much preferred none at all and just the first name.

I always liked the first name/last name structure. The pre-selected list I wasn't a fan of, either. I would have preferred a last name of my choosing. I just liked the first/last naming convention as it mirrored the real world and made sense to me for this world for social and other reasons.

[LittleMe Jewell]

2 hours ago, missyrideout said:

I wonder what the story is with case sensitivity and old names. I often see people with a lowercase first name / last name combination. Was it possible for jane Doe and Jane Doe to coexist at some point? Or are they one and the same with the presentation depending on the initial registration? Is it possible to "correct" such a name with these upcoming changes? 

I think a lower case first name would tweak me more than Resident, at least Resident is hidden. If I were missy Rideout I'd be looking forward to name changes for that reason alone. What's in a name? Apparently a whole heck of a lot. 

As far as I know, while the system allows any letters of the name to be lowercase, the uniqueness check within the system ignores case.  Thus there cannot be a MisSyridEOut since, ignoring case, you already have that name.

Expanding on that, because case is ignored for the uniqueness check, I'm not sure they could allow you to change it from missyrideout to MissyRideout or any other case variation.

I do think that they should add some verbiage to the signup page to emphasize that the name will be 'as entered, including case'.

Edited November 28, 2019 by LittleMe Jewell

[Qie Niangao]

10 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Expanding on that, because case is ignored for the uniqueness check, I'm not sure they could allow you to change it from missyrideout to MissyRideout or any other case variation.

I think it was Oz at the Server User Group meeting who confirmed that we'll be able to change a name back to another name the account held before. So maybe it would allow changing a name "back" to the "same" name it has currently with different case, or maybe it would allow changing a name to a placeholder and then back to the previous name with a different case (for a total of twice the cost--so an expensive experiment if it comes to that), or maybe none of the above.

Hmmm. One might want to choose wisely even a "placeholder" name because it will be available to you and only you forever after.

[LittleMe Jewell]

5 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

I think it was Oz at the Server User Group meeting who confirmed that we'll be able to change a name back to another name the account held before. So maybe it would allow changing a name "back" to the "same" name it has currently with different case, or maybe it would allow changing a name to a placeholder and then back to the previous name with a different case (for a total of twice the cost--so an expensive experiment if it comes to that), or maybe none of the above.

Hmmm. One might want to choose wisely even a "placeholder" name because it will be available to you and only you forever after.

I had forgotten that we could change back.  If you actually had to change to a new name and then back in order to fix the case issue, that would be paying for 2 name changes and some might not think it worth that much.  If they could simply change to the same name with different case, I could see quite a few jumping on that wagon.  We've seen lots of complaints here in the forums from people that did not realize the case would matter.

It's also possible that the 'change back' part simply gives you a list of your previous names to pick from, thus resulting in the same case as the original.

Edited November 28, 2019 by LittleMe Jewell