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Scylla Rhiadra

List of Creators Producing BoM-Compliant Goods

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2 hours ago, onyx Bijoux said:

From and Old School SL resident that has been around for almost 15 years. Designers back in the day used 512 to reduce lag. They started with a 1024 x1024 template then reduce it to 512 x512. I don't think we need that much resolution. I think we need less lag,  those of you that must have the detail don't complain about lag. How many of you look at your complexity or script counts ? How many of you notice you crashed or you can't move when Jo Smoe ported in. No it is not a coincidence.  I for one am glad we can't import 2048.

Using Too Many Textures or Lots of High Resolution Images are the #1 source of Scene Lag!

The number and size of textures you use to texture an object or scene can affect the amount of lag someone experiences  Lag is a slow down in performance of the viewer. If you’ve ever tried to move or walk and you find that your avatar isn’t responding as quickly as usual, or that everything just seems sluggish, or the objects in the scene look grey and take a long time to come into focus, that might be because there are too many textures, or textures that were too high in resolution!

While high resolution textures definitely do not always need to be used, and are often used when they do not need to be, I personally am glad that skin textures can now be higher than 512.  I wouldn't want to go backwards in that arena.

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Sorry if this has been asked before but, do any of the skin suppliers offer a system layer designed for the Maitreya Lara body?  All the ones I have tried are really designed for the system toe-and-finger-less body, and although they are okay, they screw up round the toes and fingertips.

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On 9/27/2019 at 2:06 PM, Cesartje said:

The only thing that bothers me in bakes on mesh is how the heads don´t match the SL uv map completelly, so I sit and wait for new heads to come out. But Bom is the best thing ever for me - lots of layers free of glitch, no more huds with alpha cuts, I can save outfits with the corresponding alpha, its like old SL, but better !

Snapshot_040.png

That's your head creator's fault tho.

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2 hours ago, anna2358 said:

Sorry if this has been asked before but, do any of the skin suppliers offer a system layer designed for the Maitreya Lara body?

I doubt that any of the skin makers who have been making for mesh bodies using appliers, have also made a system avatar skin layer as well for any mesh body. reason being that in making for mesh bodies a separate layer for system was not needed as the skins were only meant to be used on the specific body they were made for.  It looks like all skin makers are now going to have to do a work around to accommodate BOM, IF they want to that is.  We just have to wait till they catch up.  But having said that BOM is new and like everything else new it will take some time before it all comes together.  Personally, I plan to wait, not rushing into BOM just yet.  I am happy with my look, and will get into BOM as the appropriate body and textures become available.  I tried the hud thing and huds are hit or miss at best, especially if you want to still use mesh clothing in conjunction with BOM,  big issue with not having the body alpha sections to use.

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5 hours ago, anna2358 said:

Sorry if this has been asked before but, do any of the skin suppliers offer a system layer designed for the Maitreya Lara body?

I have spoken with a couple of my favorite skinners and they are now in the process of creating system layers for mesh bodies. It's going to take some time for them to create all these new system layers. Just give them some time. 

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On 8/29/2019 at 4:26 PM, Skell Dagger said:

Signature has just sent out an auto-update for Gianni that contains a v4.8 'Bakes on Mesh test version'.

That's over a month ago now and I updated my Gianni-wearing alt right away and then forgot about it. After the official Firestorm update I took another look and started working with the Signature BOM avatar a bit more. Unlike Slink, Signature still uses the "alpha cuts" HUD (and auto-alpha) approach to hiding avatar parts (which may be a relief to some users) but it does not support system alpha-mask layering. This befuddled me for an embarrassingly long time because the BoM textures are indeed applied to the mesh and rebake as they should when layers are added or removed (including alpha layers), but the alpha layers just don't hide the BoM-textured surfaces. Finally, with no response in the Signature group chat, I asked for a hint in the Slink group chat and was advised* that the problem likely was that the avatar mesh surfaces were set to Blended not Masked alpha mode. I tried to ask about this to a Signature developer and was told the alpha layer was used to hide the system avatar under the mesh (which shouldn't be necessary at all with BoM), but I don't really have the right reference links to send to that developer to explain such details of how BoM is really supposed to work. (Anybody have any pointers I could send her way?)

This raises a broader, definition-level concern in a thread about BoM compliant products: Should users expect all "Bakes on Mesh" avatars to hide under alpha layer masking?

___________
*This help came directly from a very understanding Slink developer to whom I am most grateful.

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Posted (edited)
On 9/1/2019 at 2:05 PM, Skell Dagger said:

I think they've done it this way for now because this is a 'test version' of the body. They've put it out as quickly as they can, and right now there's still so much content on the market that makes use of alpha cuts that they were probably hedging their bets. The menswear market is lousy enough right now, so I'm glad that they've offered this as an option, at least initially. The CI of the body has still reduced drastically, even with the alpha cuts still in place, but I doubt that we'll see a sub-100 complexity Signature body any time soon.

Yes, this was the correct this to do and Signature was smart (I confirmed yesterday that Signature Geralt still has an Alpha cuts management system with the BOM update body) and realized that BOM does not mean you can throw out the Alpha cuts management system because wearing mesh clothing still requires you to hide Alpha sections and that most mesh clothing never came with Alpha masks.  Slink on the other hand decided to remove the Alpha cuts from its BOM Redux body and now trying to wear mesh with that body clothing is nightmarish.  As a result of Slink removing the Alpha cuts wearing mesh is like a bad joke and it is very confusing, time consuming and frustrating for customers.  The customers do not want to sit around manually creating their own Alphas mask by photo editing and then pay to upload them into SL.

The short fact of the matter is the Slink is out of touch with reality and refuses to see this from the customers perspective as to how difficult and a burden their decision to remove the Alpha cut from their body is to their customer who want to wear the mesh clothing that they have spent a ton of money on over the years.  The customers do no want to stop using or throw away the mesh clothing they already own just because BOM is here now.

 

On 9/1/2019 at 2:10 PM, Sparkly Rainbow said:

I prefer the body to still have the alpha cuts.  Most of my mesh clothing did NOT come with alpha masks and I am not interested in having to start making masks for all my mesh clothing.  I am hoping that all the bodies will give that option to the end-user.  

Exactly!  This is what I told Slink support last night.  It is a undo burden to put on their customer to expect them to manually create their their own alpha masks by photo editing and then pay to upload these masks in SL

The Slink support rep told me to go ask vendors for Alpha's.  I know from experience the most vendors are not going to to back and update their existing clothing or care about some item you bought a long time ago from them. As Slink told me it isn't up to the them to create Alpha masks if the vendors don't provide them.  That then leaves the burden on the customer and this is not acceptable and shows total disrespect to their customers who have invested a lot of money into their bodies and on product for the body (clothing, skins, tattoos, etc.).

As I told the Slink support rep yesterday, I really do love my Slink mesh, but having to create alphas manually is sort of a deal breaker for continued use of Slink (I have used Slink since 2016 even with other mesh  body options but this change is unacceptable especially when other bodies do still have a proper Alpha cut management system) .  I am not trying to be difficult or rude, but if someone see a Signature BOM body with an Alpha cuts management system and then compares it to Slink and are told to create their own Alpha's by photo editing and on top of that pay to upload each alpha mask they create the customer isn't going to choose to buy the Slink body because that is added frustration and cost to use mesh clothes with the Slink body.  The response from the Slink support rep was "we have had the product out for three weeks, you are actually my first IM of this magnitude on it".  I  am sure more Slink customers will feel the same way when they wear the BOM body and find out how hard it is now to wear mesh clothing properly and the above quoted post is proof of that.

Don't tell me to look on the MP for pre-made alpha masks as I already tired and the problem was that the cut were in places other than where I need them to be (that meant parts of the body got hidden that shouldn't have been and other parts that I needed hidden still were visible).

Also do not tell me to wear the classic body and that changes the look of my AV because I cannot the use the BOM skins, BOM tattoos and BOM clothing that I wanted to be able to use again now that BOM is live.  Doing that means that I don't get any BOM benefits so using 2 different type of Slink bodies is not a solution (classic mesh and BOM Redux).

Edited by Icheb
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Personally speaking, I totally disagree with Icheb. For me, getting rid of Alpha Cuts was the best thing ever. So I've had to spend lindens on importing alpha layer textures but once I've created an alpha layer and added it to clothes or outfit folder that's it. It's all done. I can take clothes off, wear them again later and no setting up alpha cuts. Yes, I know there are various scripted solutions provided to get over the setting up of alpha cuts but really alpha layers are so simple. Slink provides a few full perm textures & alpha layers to start customers off which is certainly a help.

Alpha layers for most mesh body clothes (where needed) are usually much much simpler and easier to produce than for the old System body. Usually it's only a few small pieces of the body that poke through and the alpha texture can be really quite simple. Plus, once you've made an alpha layer for one piece of clothing you'll often find that same alpha layer will work for other similare clothes. Jeans for instance usually need only small area of the legs and sometimes the area round the groin hidden.

The other big plus about alpha layers working on mesh bodies is that it brings back to life a lot of the older mesh clothes that I had boxed up in Inventory. Some of the supplied alpha layers work and some don't but that's easily solved if I really like the item of clothing. Finally, alpha layers on mesh bodies also means you can easily hide feet so some older boots now work with my Slink feet.

This is only my personal view and people are free to use whatever type of mesh body they choose.

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Posted (edited)

For me, having only alpha-cuts as an option -- not supporting basic alpha-layer masking with BoM -- is simply a deal-breaker, and that appears to be the situation with the Signature bodies. If they have users who insist they need alpha-cuts, fine, they can have that in the HUD and I'll just ignore it (I can live with that little extra rendering complexity) but they simply must support alpha layers or I'm not going to use their products.

Of course if these superstitious creators would grant MODIFY permission to their mesh avatars I could go in and fix their mistakes, but as it is, I'll simply quit using my Signature-wearing alt until they finally figure out how BoM is actually supposed to work and fix their products accordingly.

Edited by Qie Niangao

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16 hours ago, Blush Bravin said:

I have spoken with a couple of my favorite skinners and they are now in the process of creating system layers for mesh bodies. It's going to take some time for them to create all these new system layers. Just give them some time. 

Okay, so 'soon' it is.....🤐

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6 hours ago, Icheb said:

Also do not tell me to wear the classic body and that changes the look of my AV because I cannot the use the BOM skins, BOM tattoos and BOM clothing that I wanted to be able to use again now that BOM is live.  Doing that means that I don't get any BOM benefits so using 2 different type of Slink bodies is not a solution (classic mesh and BOM Redux).

You can use BOM on the Slink "Classic" bodies by using an Omega applier to put the BOM textures on it.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

You can use BOM on the Slink "Classic" bodies by using an Omega applier to put the BOM textures on it.

I am not going to use some unsupported method to get BOM appied on the Slink Classic body.  Also doing that means you can't use the new Slink BOM HUD to manage BOM functions on the body.  I don't want a workaround or a hack, I want a proper Alpha cuts management system that doesn't put the burnden and cost on the customers to wear their existing mesh clothing with the Slink BOM Redux body.

 

Edited by Icheb

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Icheb said:

I am not going to use some unsupported method to get BOM appied on the Slink Classic body.  Also doing that means you can't use the new Slink BOM HUD to manage BOM functions on the body.  I don't want a workaround or a hack, I want a proper Alpha cuts management system that doesn't put the burnden and cost on the customers to wear their existing mesh clothing with the Slink BOM Redux body.

 

You said you couldn't use BOM on a Slink Classic body. I pointed out that you can. I've been doing it for months. What "Bakes on Mesh functions" from the HUD will you be looking for? There's almost nothing that the HUD needs to manage.

As it happens, my male alt has a Slink body, so I'm aware a lot of Slink male clothing comes from templates, includes standard size versions, and, for those standard size versions, already includes the alphas.

Edited by Theresa Tennyson

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Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

You said you couldn't use BOM on a Slink Classic body. I pointed out that you can. I've been doing it for months. What "Bakes on Mesh functions" from the HUD will you be looking for? There's almost nothing that the HUD needs to manage.

As it happens, my male alt has a Slink body, so I'm aware a lot of Slink male clothing comes from templates, includes standard size versions, and, for those standard size versions, already includes the alphas.

As I said I don't want a workaround or a hack, I want a proper Alpha cuts management system that doesn't put the burden and cost on the customers to wear their existing mesh clothing with the Slink BOM Redux body.  I want an official Sink provided and supported Alpha cuts management system on the Slink BOM Redux body just as Signature has with their BOM bodies.  Slink needs to see this from the customers perspective as to how difficult and a burden their decision to remove the Alpha cut from their body is to their customer who want to wear the mesh clothing that they have spent a ton of money on over the years.  The customers do no want to stop using or throw away the mesh clothing they already own just because BOM is here now nor do they want to manually photo edit alphas masks and pay to upload them into SL.  Most clothing never came with Alpha mask just as Sparkly Rainbow I have pointed out (I wear only the Slink male body and have purchase enough clothing over the year for the body that I can say with certainty that not having Alphas mask include is the norm and getting mail mesh clothing with Alpha mask prior to BOM is the exception).

It took the Slink support rep 4 tries and nearly an hour to make a proper Alpha mask that worked with my mesh outfit I showed them as an example  (they rep offered to do that and I did not ask, demand or expect them to create this) for me when I contacted Slink support.  This proves as I said that wearing mesh clothing with Slink now is nightmarish, time consuming and put the burden put on their customers.  These Alpha masks are not easier for customer nor are they realistic and proper solution for wearing mesh clothing on the Slink body.  There is no way you can say after 4 tries and nearly an hour from Slink themselves that Alphas masks are easier, less time consuming and less costly to the customer than the Alpha cuts management system that Slink removed/left out from the Slink BOM Redux body.

Edited by Icheb

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8 minutes ago, Icheb said:

As I said I don't want a workaround or a hack, I want a proper Alpha cuts management system that doesn't put the burden and cost on the customers to wear their existing mesh clothing with the Slink BOM Redux body. 

Well, you're not going to get it. The maker of the Slink body said basically in so many words that a big reason they were excited by BOM was to get away from the scripting and cutting necessary for the alpha system.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Well, you're not going to get it. The maker of the Slink body said basically in so many words that a big reason they were excited by BOM was to get away from the scripting and cutting necessary for the alpha system.

I know that this isn't something that we are going to get from Slink and they have already decided it's all BOM or nothing with the BOm Redux body instead of making sure that mesh clothing was still easy to use and not burdensome for their customers using the BOM Redux body.  I can still voice my opinion and concerns on this matter as a 3 year plus Slink customer.

What will happen is many existing Slink users such as myself are going to change to other mesh bodies such as Signature that has a Alpha cuts management system for their BOM bodies and new customers will avoid Slink because mesh clothing will be difficult to use.  Also the clothing creators/vendor will stop making products for Slink because they have to spend more time making Alpha massk just for the Slink BOM Redux body where as they can just rely on the Alpha cuts management system in those other BOM bodies.  Slink is have been losing market share for a while now and this is just going drive them total irrelevance and might be a nail in the coffin.

Mesh clothing isn't going away because BOM the face is that paint in clothes is still very limited since you can sculpt, and contour it or create actual depth of have clothing that flows with body movement.  BOM is not a replace all for mesh clothing and Slink is making mistake betting that it is.

Edited by Icheb

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I have been following this for some time now,  I have messed with BOM using the Maitreya hud on my original Maitreya body..  and the conclusion I have come to is  that any BOM mesh body should have and needs to have also the alpha cuts hud to remain.  No one is going to want to mess with alpha layers for BOM,  and that includes many clothing makers who make mesh clothing.  So I do hope the body makers are paying attention.. and NOT digging their heels in as it seems Slink is with the mens body at least.  Customers are NOT going to mess with trying to make alpha layers you can be sure of that..  There may be a few like those who have commented in here that have no problem with making their own alpha layers, but the majority of SL folks are not going to want to be messing with that..  they will be looking for the simplest and most straight forward method of using BOM that does not screw up wearing their previously bought mesh clothing.. 

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, Tazzie Tuque said:

I have been following this for some time now,  I have messed with BOM using the Maitreya hud on my original Maitreya body..  and the conclusion I have come to is  that any BOM mesh body should have and needs to have also the alpha cuts hud to remain.  No one is going to want to mess with alpha layers for BOM,  and that includes many clothing makers who make mesh clothing.  So I do hope the body makers are paying attention.. and NOT digging their heels in as it seems Slink is with the mens body at least.  Customers are NOT going to mess with trying to make alpha layers you can be sure of that..  There may be a few like those who have commented in here that have no problem with making their own alpha layers, but the majority of SL folks are not going to want to be messing with that..  they will be looking for the simplest and most straight forward method of using BOM that does not screw up wearing their previously bought mesh clothing.. 

That makes 4 of us now on this thread (you Sparkly Rainbow  and as well as Skell Dagger's comments).   The only reason most SL users haven't been speaking about this until now is most of them didn't know because most are running Firestorm and until 3 days ago hadn't ever experienced or tried using BOM before.  In the coming days and weeks many SL user are going to awaken to this stupid and inconsiderate move on the part of mesh body creators such at Slink and Maitreya and those customer are going to be very unhappy and angry.  As both you and I have said neither the customer who have the bodies already (or potential new customers) as well as clothing makers are going to want to spend extra time creating Apha masks when you can just spend less time & effort making clothes for BOM mesh bodies that still have a Alpha cuts management system  in their HUDS.

Edited by Icheb
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27 minutes ago, Icheb said:

 In the coming days and weeks many SL user are going to awaken to this stupid and inconsiderate move on the part of mesh body creators such at Slink and Maitreya and those customer are going to be very unhappy and angry. 

Maitreya hasn't changed a thing with their body, and haven't said that they're planning on removing the alpha cut system.

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28 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Maitreya hasn't changed a thing with their body, and haven't said that they're planning on removing the alpha cut system.

ya, I don't think I said anything about any Maitreya changes to the body... what I said was I have been experimenting with my original Maitreya Mesh body.. using the hud put out by Maitreya to play with BOM  while we are waiting for the new body to come out..  

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Posted (edited)

***deleted duplicate post***

Edited by Icheb
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Posted (edited)
51 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Maitreya hasn't changed a thing with their body, and haven't said that they're planning on removing the alpha cut system.

I just going by the information in Tazzie Tuque post that I quoted but I guess I misunderstood what she was  saying about Alpha cuts with the Maitreya BOM body.  That being said she does state in the that in the following post that she agrees that any BOM mesh such as Slink still need to have Alphas cut for mesh clothing as this is needed by customers and by clothing creators

 

2 hours ago, Tazzie Tuque said:

I have been following this for some time now,  I have messed with BOM using the Maitreya hud on my original Maitreya body..  and the conclusion I have come to is  that any BOM mesh body should have and needs to have also the alpha cuts hud to remain.  No one is going to want to mess with alpha layers for BOM,  and that includes many clothing makers who make mesh clothing.  So I do hope the body makers are paying attention.. and NOT digging their heels in as it seems Slink is with the mens body at least.  Customers are NOT going to mess with trying to make alpha layers you can be sure of that..  There may be a few like those who have commented in here that have no problem with making their own alpha layers, but the majority of SL folks are not going to want to be messing with that..  they will be looking for the simplest and most straight forward method of using BOM that does not screw up wearing their previously bought mesh clothing.. 

Slink for fact has removed their Alpha cuts management system on their BOM Redux mesh bodies and I stand by all statements that I have made so far about that poorly decision that negatively will affects their customers experience using mesh

Edited by Icheb

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I'm extremely happy with Slink's new approach. Alpha cuts were buggy, tedious to set up, affected heavily by lag while using massive chunks of script memory. The new system needs only a little initial effort and then it's easier, more granular, and faster than the old ways.

I certainly never want the alpha cut system to return.

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There's no buggy behaviour in the alpha cuts on my Maitreya body.  Sure lag can affect it working but honestly I have never been found that to be a problem because the lag would have to be extreme and I would have to want to change mesh clothing which will also be affected by the lag.  The alpha cuts work everywhere I care about changing clothes.  So I am in the camp of wanting to retain the alpha cuts.  No way am I going to make alphas for over 6000 items of clothing and I would expect my inventory is lightweight compared to many who might feel similarly.

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