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Scylla Rhiadra

List of Creators Producing BoM-Compliant Goods

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56 minutes ago, Cinos Field said:

I'm extremely happy with Slink's new approach. Alpha cuts were buggy, tedious to set up, affected heavily by lag while using massive chunks of script memory. The new system needs only a little initial effort and then it's easier, more granular, and faster than the old ways.

I certainly never want the alpha cut system to return.

 

36 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

There's no buggy behaviour in the alpha cuts on my Maitreya body.  Sure lag can affect it working but honestly I have never been found that to be a problem because the lag would have to be extreme and I would have to want to change mesh clothing which will also be affected by the lag.  The alpha cuts work everywhere I care about changing clothes.  So I am in the camp of wanting to retain the alpha cuts.  No way am I going to make alphas for over 6000 items of clothing and I would expect my inventory is lightweight compared to many who might feel similarly.

Thennn some people will like not using the alpha cut system and some people will decide they want to keep it. And there's nothing keeping both groups from doing what they want.

Now let's all sing "Kumbaya."

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

There's no buggy behaviour in the alpha cuts on my Maitreya body.  Sure lag can affect it working but honestly I have never been found that to be a problem because the lag would have to be extreme and I would have to want to change mesh clothing which will also be affected by the lag.  The alpha cuts work everywhere I care about changing clothes.  So I am in the camp of wanting to retain the alpha cuts.  No way am I going to make alphas for over 6000 items of clothing and I would expect my inventory is lightweight compared to many who might feel similarly.

You like me realize how much burden it will be not having and Alpha cuts management system and how burdensome making TONS of Alpha masks will be.  Now if we could only get mesh body creators like Slink to come to their sense and realize that a BOM mesh body without an Alpha cuts management system is insane and that creating tons of Alpha cuts at cost to their customers is unacceptable!

3 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

 

Thennn some people will like not using the alpha cut system and some people will decide they want to keep it. And there's nothing keeping both groups from doing what they want.

Now let's all sing "Kumbaya."

You could not be more wrong.  There is something keeping both groups from doing what they want when Slink designed their BOM Redux body to not have an Alpha cuts management system!  Don't say use the classic Slink body because that means I cannot use BOM then since the classic body doesn't have BOM functionality and Slink plans no further updates for it.  Also don't say use an Omega BOM applier on the classic Slink body (this is asking for bugw and I do not need now want an unsupported hack to apply BOM textures on a non BOM body).

Edited by Icheb

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27 minutes ago, Icheb said:

You could not be more wrong.  There is something keeping both groups from doing what they want when Slink designed their BOM Redux body to not have an Alpha cuts management system!  Don't say use the classic Slink body because that means I cannot use BOM then since the classic body doesn't have BOM functionality and Slink plans no further updates for it.  Also don't say use an Omega BOM applier on the classic Slink body (this is asking for bugw and I do not need now want an unsupported hack to apply BOM textures on a non BOM body).

Indeed, there's something keeping you from doing what you want. However, it would be more polite for me to not say what it is in so many words.

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, Icheb said:

Also don't say use an Omega BOM applier on the classic Slink body (this is asking for bugw and I do not need now want an unsupported hack to apply BOM textures on a non BOM body).

Did you use skin appliers on your classic Slink body? If so, then you're doing nothing different by using the Omega BOM applier. It's not an "unsupported hack"; it's simply a skin applier. The only difference between that skin applier and one by any skin store is that the skin it's applying comprises the BOM bake textures. You could even make it yourself, by picking up the free Omega developer kit, downloading the BOM bake textures, and putting together your own Omega BOM applier.

The Slink redux body is just pre-textured with the exact same BOM bake textures, so using that would be the equivalent of never using any other skin applier and sticking instead to the default skins included with a mesh body's HUD.

Edited by Skell Dagger
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9 minutes ago, Skell Dagger said:

Did you use skin appliers on your classic Slink body? If so, then you're doing nothing different by using the Omega BOM applier. It's not an "unsupported hack"; it's simply a skin applier. The only difference between that skin applier and one by any skin store is that the skin it's applying comprises the BOM bake textures. You could even make it yourself, by picking up the free Omega developer kit, downloading the BOM bake textures, and putting together your own Omega BOM applier.

The Slink redux body is just pre-textured with the exact same BOM bake textures, so using that would be the equivalent of never using any other skin applier and sticking instead to the default skins included with a mesh body's HUD.

Not going to use an Slink ans well as SL unsupported hack to put BOM on mesh.  The classic body is end of life an Slink has said that themselves.  If I want BOM I do not intend to use an applier because that is not how BOM works and defeats the purpose of BOM.  Signature did the BOM the right way in respect to existing mesh clothing, and Slink should not have removed the Alpha cuts management system and put burden as well as cost on its customer to use mesh clothing on their BOM bodies.

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5 minutes ago, Icheb said:

as SL unsupported hack

You didn't read what I wrote, did you? And, if you did, then you didn't understand it. That's okay.

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10 minutes ago, Icheb said:

The classic body is end of life an Slink has said that themselves.

"But I hear you asking – “but what about the current body and all those appliers I have purchased or made over the last few years??” They aren’t going anywhere! The current body has been labelled “Classic” and you will find it packed along with the Redux update as a separate unpacker option. We have decided to leave a significant amount of time before we even consider removing it from the pack, to give people a chance to adjust and make the transition at their own pace. And even then, everything “Classic” will continue to work for as long as you want it to."
—Siddean Munro, on the SLinkStyle blog, announcing the Redux body 

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1 hour ago, Skell Dagger said:

You didn't read what I wrote, did you? And, if you did, then you didn't understand it. That's okay.

I read and understand perfectly well what you mean I am not not interested in a Omega applier to put BOM on a body that does have BOM support.  It is you who doesn't get it and your condensing attitude doesn't invalidate my point of view or that others who have the same point of view that I have on the matter of the missing Alpha cuts management system on the Slink body or other BOM mesh bodies.  Go preach to someone who actually cares about your point of view about Omega BOM hacks because you won't change how I feel about that subject. 

1 hour ago, Skell Dagger said:

"But I hear you asking – “but what about the current body and all those appliers I have purchased or made over the last few years??” They aren’t going anywhere! The current body has been labelled “Classic” and you will find it packed along with the Redux update as a separate unpacker option. We have decided to leave a significant amount of time before we even consider removing it from the pack, to give people a chance to adjust and make the transition at their own pace. And even then, everything “Classic” will continue to work for as long as you want it to."
—Siddean Munro, on the SLinkStyle blog, announcing the Redux body 

- The Slink Classic body is V2.0.7 - 04 December 2018 (this is not the current body and it does not have BOM support. V2.07 was out in 2018 and was just renamed Slink Classic body with the same version number as before the remain when they started offering the BOM bundle with that body and the BOM Redux body)

- Slink Physique Male Mesh Body Bundle (Redux) V4.0.0 - V4.0.0 - Last Update 03 July 2019 (this new body and it has the BOM support built in - does not use some Omega applier hack to put BOM textures on the body)

I have been very clear on this and it is you who haven't understood what I have written.  As I have said multiple time bodies such and Signature have BOM bodies have both BOM and an Alpha cuts management system for the body that can be controlled by the HUD.  Slink on it BOM Redux bodies removed/left out the Alpha cuts management system and expect their customer use to create and use Alpha mask (photo edit and pay to upload) or use the V2.0.7 Slink Classic body which doesn't support BOM to wear mesh.  Using an Omega applier to put BOM on the Slink Classic body V2.07 is essentially a hack and not supported by officially supported by Linden Labs or Slink as method for applying BOM Textures regardless of if it works or not and your opinion on that doesn't change that fact.  I don't want to have to chose between using 2 version on the body: a non BOM body for mesh clothing to have a proper Alpha cuts management system or using the BOM Redux body and having to manually create Alpha masks which is a nightmare and costs me additional money to wear clothes that used to work just fine.  2 bodies isn't a solutions and other meshes such as Signature did the correct thing and added BOM functionality to their bodies and while also keeping the Alpha cuts management system because this is a better solution for it customers to continue to use their mesh clothing they have paid for and own.

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17 minutes ago, Icheb said:

your condensing attitude

Quoth he who posts scorn-laughter as a response. Enjoy your superiority, darling. Take an oxygen mask with you, okay? The air's a bit thin up there ;)

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Icheb said:

I have been very clear on this and it is you who haven't understood what I have written.  As I have said multiple time bodies such and Signature have BOM bodies have both BOM and an Alpha cuts management system for the body that can be controlled by the HUD. 

Do you know what Signature did to "convert" their body to BOM? They offered a functionality that will texture it with the textures the BOM system replaces with the avatar bake. That's all they did. It sounds like they didn't even bother to change it to use alpha masking so it can't use worn alphas.

Applying those very same textures is exactly - exactly - what an Omega or any other applier does.

Edited by Theresa Tennyson
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Do you know what Signature did to "convert" their body to BOM? They offered a functionality that will texture it with the textures the BOM system replaces with the avatar bake. That's all they did. It sounds like they didn't even bother to change it to use alpha masking so it can't use worn alphas.

Applying those very same textures is exactly - exactly - what an Omega or any other applier does.

I'm ok with that because Signature is officially supporting that for their body.  If I did that with Slink and have issues Slink support will tell me I am out luck since they don't officially support that on their bodies.  I accept solutions that I can get support for the vendors I buy from.

Edited by Icheb

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23 minutes ago, Icheb said:

I'm ok with that because Signature is officially supporting that for their body.  If I did that with Slink and have issues Slink support will tell me I am out luck since they don't officially support that on their bodies.  I accept solutions that I can get support for the vendors I buy from.

Yeah -- it's not like Slink provides a setup where you can install Omega capability to their "classic" body parts.

 

Oh, wait! They DO!

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12 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

There's no buggy behaviour in the alpha cuts on my Maitreya body.  

You've been lucky then. I've had plenty of issues with buggy behaviour with both Maitreya and Belleza, on multiple alts, which have required relogging to resolve.

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, Stephanie Misfit said:

You've been lucky then. I've had plenty of issues with buggy behaviour with both Maitreya and Belleza, on multiple alts, which have required relogging to resolve.

I think we have to be careful not to categorise SL issues as purely product issues.  SL problems tend to need relogs where as purely product issues tend not to.

Purely product issues tend to be repeatable by anyone in a consistent manner if given the right reproduction steps, intermittent problems that cannot be reproduced on demand by others in this fashion tend more to be a result of the SL experience having some kind of issue whether it be an issue with PC hardware, lag, the viewer, a connection to an SL server or an SL server or service itself.  I know that is a blanket statement and not necessarily so for all cases but I think it is fair to say that in a lot of cases.

People come to the inworld groups all the time with experiences such as yours and ultimately when people have helped them the issues have either turned out to be something else or they are simply not reproducible by others.  Real bugs that are found through this method get reported.  During the update cycle from v3.5 through to v4.1 for example lots of bugs were found, reported and addressed.  Lara is very stable generally and I cannot think of any real bugs I ever encounter.

Different usage patterns can also expose bugs so if there is a consistently repeatable huge issue with Lara you are seeing then you can report this via @Gryphon Ronas and I am confident it will be addressed in an update.  There is one being worked on right now so please do report it with a good description of the issue and some clear reproducible steps.

One reason I think I have a lot less problems than a lot of people is that I never change mesh body parts unless upgrading them to newer versions.  My outfits that I switch between do not include the body parts so when I switch, it is only the clothing that switches.  I have noticed from my time on the inworld groups that people who swap mesh body parts when changing outfits tend to have an awful lot more problems.  I am not saying this is what you do but if you do it could be a factor too.

There are many variables though and I don't tend to have many of the problems generally that plague others unless SL is playing up but then I have a very fast PC with lots of RAM, very fast graphics card with lots of RAM and a 900/500 speed internet connection.  That probably helps my experience a lot.

I just don't believe that somehow I am charmed with luck in this respect and others are cursed with bad luck.
 

Edited by Gabriele Graves
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Let me just say if I have given anyone the impression that Slink doesn't support their customers it was not my intent and maybe my context was not clear.  Let me be clear on this over the 3 years that I have owned the body Slink support has been helpful, quick and responsive anytime I have contacted them.  I have found their support reps and team to be eager to help their customer and make sure they are happy.  Slink is the gold standard for support

I guess I have been having frustration with adapting to a major change to how mesh work.  I am sure in time as BOM matures and more vendors and customer are on board with it things will be standardize with mesh clothing on the body.  There will be growing pains to adapt to this change and to get old mesh clothing ready for easy wear.  That being said once this change is behind use BOM will greatly enhance our SL experience and out are better off for having it.

Using an Omega BOM applier on the Slink non Redux body will work as it does the other bodies.  I have learned that Slink will consider this to be an acceptable supported method for BOM even on the non Redux body so it shouldn’t be a concern of issue and I stand corrected thinking otherwise

I do deeply regret that I have offended anyone that makes the product as Slink is the finest mesh that I have ever use and the skill and talents of the developer as well as the efforts of all the involved with running Slink is to be applauded.  I do come across strong with my opinions and that is just who I am by nature.  That being said I am not beyond reason and nor incapable of revising my views when necessary or unable to say if I have misspoke or made error on points of things I say.

I wish Slink continued success with its products as they have always been top notch and are deserving recognition for being quality products that are worth their customer’s money and they have always offered and continued to give outstanding service instead of forgetting those customers once the purchase has been made.

 

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11 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Yeah -- it's not like Slink provides a setup where you can install Omega capability to their "classic" body parts.

 

Oh, wait! They DO!

The person you're replying to is doing a piss-poor job at communicating it, but is still making a valid point:

Slink will not be providing any further, unrelated technological updates to the Classic body. If an update similar to Bento came along, Slink Classic users would have to choose between the new technological update, or their existing clothing collection that does not come with system alpha layers.

Unlike with the original transition to mesh, there is no technological reason why a "throw out your old stuff and start over" approach is necessary. It's nothing more than a creator choosing to impose their ideological purity upon their existing customerbase. And that is something fully deserving of criticism.

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Once a person realizes how easy it is to combine system alpha layers to use instead of alpha cuts they will realize it's a better system. No longer do creators need to be confined to making creations that must align with alpha cuts thereby giving them a greater freedom in making more unusual clothing.

It's really quite easy to combine alphas to get the functionality that is now available in alpha cuts. For those who have been around long enough to have used system alpha layers before we switched to mesh bodies it will be a much easier transition for those who are new and have only used alpha cuts the process will take a little more effort to learn but it is effort well spent.

As a side note. I noticed that my YS&YS head applier came with a system layer for the body only. I was able to use this system layer with my Maitreya body and it's a perfect skin. This system layer skin is an exact match for the Maitreya body applier with the corrections already made for the fingers and toes. I went crazy buying skin details from Izzies. I'm so loving my "new" looking body with all the details and no glitching. Now I'm off to buy tattoos!

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Thennn some people will like not using the alpha cut system and some people will decide they want to keep it. And there's nothing keeping both groups from doing what they want.

Now let's all sing "Kumbaya."

Whenever there's a split of opinion like this, but one side is effectively saying "everyone else needs to change to suit my wishes"; that's the side that's in the wrong, in my opinion.

Options are good; options are amazing. "My way or the highway" is not.

Edited by AyelaNewLife
Original wording was overly harsh
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Posted (edited)

 

1 hour ago, AyelaNewLife said:

Whenever there's a split of opinion like this, but one side is effectively saying "everyone else needs to change to suit my wishes"; that's the side that's in the wrong, in my opinion.

Options are good; options are amazing. "My way or the highway" is not.

Who's saying that?

Perhaps you're arguing that removing the alpha cuts (on new bodies only) is "my way or the highway."

However, requiring people who don't want to use the alpha cut system to still have their body chopped up into multiple glitching pieces that they don't feel are necessary is also "my way or the highway."

Edited by Theresa Tennyson

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1 hour ago, Blush Bravin said:

Once a person realizes how easy it is to combine system alpha layers to use instead of alpha cuts they will realize it's a better system.

"Better system" is very subjective. I was around for a couple years before mesh bodies became a thing and had plenty of experience with alphas, because after checking the horrible system clothing it was mesh all since then. I did and still do think it's an awful system and prefer the alpha huds to it, by a lot. Same goes for makeup layers vs huds, like I already said before (in some related thread), one hud with 15-20 makeup with previews vs digging through folder trying to remember what is what.

No alpha cuts support on BoM bodies and half of decade worth of clothing made for those also mean that many people including myself (I have other reasons, too. like the lack of materials support) are unlikely to drop the non bom bodies anytime soon. And no, the pack of FP alphas from MP won't do it as the replacement for alpha cuts. It's fine if all you wear are jeans and tops with long sleeves, then yeah, it might work (or might not, because even jeans do vary a lot, high and low rise, some with cuts etc), but for anything slightly more unique you''d need to either make alpha yourself or hope creator will release it; in first case - no thanks, I don't have time or any desire to try and make alphas for several thousands of clothes and in the second - almost no chances creators will bother to update years worth of content.

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Posted (edited)

@AyelaNewLife has very succinctly got to the point about alphas.

It is really fantastic if you are using BoM, find items with perfect alpha layers and/or have the time and inclination to go back and create alpha layers for the possibly thousands of items of mesh clothing that haven't come with any alphas layers for a long time now.  That is wonderful, you just add them and go, simple and quick.  This is really not contentious, all the power to those people and I am absolutely sure we are all happy for those people.

It is the people who are not using BoM or who are using BoM and find that their clothing vendor still isn't shipping with alpha layers, the alpha layers they do ship are substandard due to laziness (and so many were back when vendors started adopting five sizes and most of us didn't have mesh bodies), have just too many items of mesh clothing to contemplate making alphas layers for everything even if they have the skills and finally the category of people who just do not have the skill with any graphics application to make alpha textures and who never will.

This last part is very important and is much glossed over.  No matter how much people who are proficient bang on about how easy it is to create alpha textures, it really isn't for those who haven't got that proficiency and it takes a stunning lack of empathy to fail to get this.

I am sure there are many things those people who are saying this cannot do that others can easily do and would be able to tell them how easy and simple it is to do them.  I am also sure that this would not impress them if a previously simple way of doing something they were able to do was deprecated, was now an under-class option.  That it would probably no longer be available in future updates where new features and/or fixes are introduced, will probably not be compatible with many future related add-on items that are released and yet they were just told now you need to gain that proficiency to achieve what was previously simple or continue with the simple way and not be able to move forward with new updates and related items.  The glib answer might be, "Oh well I would gain that proficiency and move forward" but what if you couldn't for whatever reason?

Having a commitment to alpha cuts as an equally first class feature along with alpha layers is a win for everyone.  This commitment means creators continuing compatibility in future body updates and continuing compatibility for them in the majority of clothing.  Obviously the option is theirs but the hope from the alpha cuts side of this debate is that the smarter ones will see that keeping both options with first class support is better customer support and is more likely to keep money from both groups flowing into SL.
 

Edited by Gabriele Graves
Correction

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, steeljane42 said:

,,,

 

18 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

@AyelaNewLife has very succinctly got to the point about alphas.

....

 

I've removed the actual text so that this isn't a huge repeat since their comments are just above this comment.

It's not a matter of finding a perfect alpha layer for your particular mesh garment, but rather selecting a combination of alphas to get the same result you would have gotten selecting several alpha cuts. Yes, I can see that there will be some effort when replacing the auto alpha cuts that garments do on their own. But if you want to switch to a BoM body that will be less laggy then taking the time to add the needed alpha layers to an outfit or garment is worth the time for those like me who love tats and lots of added skin details. Like my momma always said, where there's a will there's a way. I prefer to find the way so I can have my cake and eat it too!

I was contemplating making a set of system alphas that matched the Lara alpha cuts in the HUD, but with my new RL job I don't have the time. I'm hoping that Onyx will include system alphas that match the Alpha cuts in the HUD when she releases the BoM compatible body. 

Edited by Blush Bravin
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25 minutes ago, steeljane42 said:

I don't have time or any desire to try and make alphas for several thousands of clothes and in the second - almost no chances creators will bother to update years worth of content.

I can give you actual numbers now about how much work it is to change from alpha cut HUD's to worn alphas.

I just changed over one of my alts who has been wearing mesh bodies since the Wowmeh body came out. She has a very non-standard shape and none of her clothing was bought specifically to wear as standard size clothing - her shape also tends to cause unusual glitches.

After updating 32 existing outfits of mesh clothing to use alphas I can tell you:

14 required no alpha at all.

10 could use alphas that came with those clothing items.

6 could use alphas from other clothing items I already had.

1 is using an alpha from a demo I got to specifically use the alpha.

1 is using one of the Slink provided alphas.

So, none of the outfits required a custom alpha. However, I did make a custom alpha for one outfit to fix a glitch that the alpha cut system was unable to fix before.

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No matter how you try to spin it. What slink did is give a middle finger to its existing user base , it wasn’t linden that said this as the signature body shows. She said here’s system body 2.0 aka redux. 

This is the same thing as if linden said mesh bodies are out , if you still like your system body ,we locked the sliders and any update we do just leave sl cause you ain’t getting it. 

The alpha cut system was probable the biggest reason why most updated to mesh and she pissed on it.

I’m  sorry if this is blunt , but everyone has tried to say it nicely and the spin factory is still in effect.

Sl doesn’t reduce lag if the existing user base keeps classic as well as sink doesn’t care about the grid by being so draconian .

 

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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

 

I've removed the actual text so that this isn't a huge repeat since their comments are just above this comment.

It's not a matter of finding a perfect alpha layer for your particular mesh garment, but rather selecting a combination of alphas to get the same result you would have gotten selecting several alpha cuts. Yes, I can see that there will be some effort when replacing the auto alpha cuts that garments do on their own. But if you want to switch to a BoM body that will be less laggy then taking the time to add the needed alpha layers to an outfit or garment is worth the time for those like me who love tats and lots of added skin details. Like my momma always said, where there's a will there's a way. I prefer to find the way so I can have my cake and eat it too!

I was contemplating making a set of system alphas that matched the Lara alpha cuts in the HUD, but with my new RL job I don't have the time. I'm hoping that Onyx will include system alphas that match the Alpha cuts in the HUD when she releases the BoM compatible body. 

This will go a long way in helping some people and with some use cases and I think this would be a good thing for Onyx to include, no doubt.  However it is not complete a solution for all people and use cases I listed.  The only complete solution possible is to keep both alpha cuts and alpha layers supported as first class options.

Edited by Gabriele Graves
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