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TMP Legacy mesh body

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, halebore Aeon said:

Yes, and all your points do make sense. I can agree with you on that one. However, there is a big but. There is always big buts in this. Lol. The biggest problem we have here, is people are magpies. They see something shiny and new and must have it. They will get it and then throw away their old thing. As they feel it moot, and not the greatest thing. Humans are very fickle creatures, and we have been like this since the dawn of time. 

The word "but" is to completely erase every statement before it as discarded. You could have used the word "therefore", "though," "however," 'albeit," and so on LOL

Being a magpie is not a problem. If I am a "magpie", how is that a problem for you? It *could* be a problem for me, sure, but only if I decide it is a problem for me. Therefore, it is not a "problem". 

I get it, all the comments that lead toward the negative side of purchasing from this virtual company are to 1) express their own experiences, dissatisfaction, and otherwise disdain and 2) perhaps the hope to express to others "be very, very careful" (though, in reality, they are trying to say "Listen to me because I know what is better for you then you do.")

My all-time favorite reading entertainment is whenever someone else tries to place a value on something. Like when people try to sell SL land "Waterfront view, Worth L$100,000 and selling for only L$50000!!!" - Umm, no. It's worth is whatever someone purchases it for. if it's up for auction and the highest bid is L$10 then that is the actual "value" of that land.

As for this new body being L$5000? That is the value the creators have placed on it. You (general 'you') may balk at that and think it is stupidly ridiculous. However, anyone who purchases it will feel that is a fair price for the perceived value. I work for a business-to-business training company and we are always harping to salespeople "do NOT sell based on your own wallet, because you do not know the perceived worth and value your customer places on the product or service." Meaning: YOU may think it's over-priced crap, but they may think differently and you have no way of knowing why. Example: Someone brings in a 15-year-old crusty $50 watch for repair that will cost $150. Do you say "It's not worth repairing, why waste your money?" ... and if the answer is "It was my dads and he died last week, this is all I have left." - now you look like the real jerk. Good job.

The GENUS head is L$5000. For *JUST A HEAD*. AND, it is a rebirth of the Defunct "Genesis" group, meaning those Genesis heads are not only no longer updated or developed, but they also are actually no longer officially supported, yet the entire sim and retail location is still there and sales are (likely) still robust. And yet, the Genus head is selling like gangbusters (I have one myself). Go figure.

So, as I've said: all is fair in love, war, and business. :D

Edited by Alyona Su
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2 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

As for this new body being L$5000? That is the value the creators have placed on it. You (general 'you') may balk at that and think it is stupidly ridiculous. However, anyone who purchases it will feel that is a fair price for the perceived value. I work for a business-to-business training company and we are always harping to salespeople "do NOT sell based on your own wallet, because you do not know the perceived worth and value your customer places on the product or service." Meaning: YOU may think it's over-priced crap, but they may think differently and you have no way of knowing why. Example: Someone brings in a 15-year-old crusty $50 watch for repair that will cost $150. Do you say "It's not worth repairing, why waste your money?" ... and if the answer is "It was my dads and he died last week, this is all I have left." - now you look like the real jerk. Good job.

The GENUS head is L$5000. For *JUST A HEAD*. AND, it is a rebirth of the Defunct "Genesis" group, meaning those Genesis heads are not only no longer updated or developed, but they also are actually no longer officially supported, yet the entire sim and retail location is still there and sales are (likely) still robust. And yet, the Genus head is selling like gangbusters (I have one myself). Go figure. 

I think that goes without saying though. We are not salespeople for TMP and consumers are entitled to express their opinion of value. What discussions like this do is better arm consumers to make better purchasing decisions.

The comparison of TMP to Genus/Genesis Labs is an apples to oranges comparison and for a lot of reasons.

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4 hours ago, halebore Aeon said:

I think a lot of us are just weary about their business practices, their price, and how they go about doing things. That doesn't make it wrong for someone to want to buy it. Just fair warning though, be careful. I bought it back in like 2016 and liked it for a bit. So it was the coolest thing, was excited about the updates. Yet they never came, I waited and waited and waited. Until I got fed up, and switched to the Signature body. This was before I identified as female. But yeah the update did come, after 5 -6 years of them constantly promising. Then as a big old slap in the face, they sold their retire bodies at 500L. So all of us who paid a crap tonne of money into this body. Felt it was kinda unfair, that it took them 6 years to update. But right when they update, they sell it for 500L and discontinue the body. Fast forward a few months later, they come back with this brand new body. Looks like the old body, but things were updated. People went in droves to buy it, but some of us. Were really weary of this, especially with the price tag. 5k for a body and people were screaming praises that it was the best body on the grid. We questioned them and questioned them as to why. We got the same answer over and over again, and then they started talking about these deformers. However, there was one big problem. We the people, who wanted to actually give the body a second try, were perturbed. That A we couldn't take it home and fiddle with it, and B we didn't get the deformers in the demo folder. We just had to trust a video they released. And still there is no support, and there is probably never gonna be Omega support. You will just have to use their in-house skins, or buy an applier and install it on a HUD.  If they do shut down, or have to do maintenance or get attacked. The bodies will be useless. That is why people won't invest again. There is no good return, at such high price.

Exactly. Your story sounds a lot like my own. I waited and waited, listened to their promises of updates that never came. Buyers today expect more and know more. Back then there was very little in the way of competition and people took their word at face value. They presented us with a new shiny thing to have and I am sure they've quickly realized that things have changed and people haven't forgotten.

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4 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

So, as I've said: all is fair in love, war, and business. :D

In love, being fair to one another often means being honest and straightforward with someone.  Trying not breaking expectations that both parties have about their love and relationship.  It is most definitely seen as unfair by many if one party breaks any of these and yet this happens all over the world, all of the time.

War is never fair, for example how can the "acceptable losses" even be classified as such?, certainly not by even of one those affected.  Yet even within the context of warfare there are established international laws to attempt to level the playing field or in other words to try make it fair therefore implies that not all is considered fair even in the established context of war.  Use of banned weapons is one such example.

Businesses often engage in unfair practices.  Every day there are reports of more and more examples of businesses not playing fair with each other and/or their customers.  One example is breaking contracts, another is seeking to escape obligations with regards to warranties.  It happens all the time and is definitely not considered fair by the aggrieved party.  There are laws in most countries to govern what is fair and what is not.  Disclosure by a CEO about their business performance is an example of something governed by fairness laws.

So in reality, no, not all is fair in love, war or business, and no amount of repeating this phrase alters the reality, it only serves to misguide the unwary.
Life is not fair but we do not attempt to tell people "All is fair in life".  We say instead, "this is the reality, deal with it" and so it is the same with everything contained in life unless we ourselves make an effort to be fair with each other.

I know you are paraphrasing the more famous original phrase from John Lyly's novel Euphues from 1578 which is just "All is fair in love and war".
However that is an obviously romantic novel and not meant to be taken literally .  Unfortunately this phrase seems to have entered into the collective consciousness of society as an axiom or golden rule but it is nothing of the sort and certainly not something to believe in.

You did put a smiley on your last repetition of this phrase which did suggest you might be joking but the three repetitions in your previous post (without smiley) suggested to me a more serious belief as if you were trying to convince, hence my post.
 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Chase01 said:

The GENUS head is L$5000. For *JUST A HEAD*. AND, it is a rebirth of the Defunct "Genesis" group, meaning those Genesis heads are not only no longer updated or developed, but they also are actually no longer officially supported, yet the entire sim and retail location is still there and sales are (likely) still robust. And yet, the Genus head is selling like gangbusters (I have one myself). Go figure. 

Around 2 years ago, I bought a Genesis head from a sale evening. The head seem lacking of something (i cannot remember). I sent NC to the creator and she replied me anything not from their shop do not support. Wording was so blunt. She slapped my face. Since then I never visited their shop once. So I hate those no support product. Second Life always improve and also create new bugs. It is so inevitable need help from the creator. Buy no support product is risk on your own $L.  

Edited by Ruslana Koskinen
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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, Ruslana Koskinen said:

Around 2 years ago, I bought a Genesis head from a sale evening. The head seem lacking of something (i cannot remember). I sent NC to the creator and she replied me anything not from their shop do not support. Wording was so blunt. She slapped my face. Since then I never visited their shop once. So I hate those no support product. Second Life always improve and also create new bugs. It is so inevitable need help from the creator. Buy no support product is risk on your own $L.  

Very true. Though people seem to forget that the in RL there is legal recourse to any "unfairness" and I put that in quotes because the word fair is subjective (and I mean by this definition: "relating to or being experience or knowledge as conditioned by personal mental characteristics or states.") In truth, "fairness" is a compromise (often with each side give something up).

However, in SL it is 100% caveat emptor, a.k.a. "buyer beware"; there is no recourse to any perceived unfairness, legal or otherwise. I am not siding with the TMP folks, I am simply stating that whether they sink or swim is something the market will decide. In truth, their methods make strong business sense, customer support notwithstanding. There is low-margin/high-volume (a.k.a. Walmart or Costco) and there is high-margin/low-volume (a.k.a. Nordstrom Shoes or Burberry handbags) - in either case, Walmart will get Walmart Customers,  Nordrom's will get Nordstrom's customers, they target different markets. This is my main point.

[For our International friends: In the United States, Walmart and Costco purchase in huge bulk, cutting prices to a barebones minimum and this often draws people more concerned about price over quality, Nordstrom's is a High-Quality retailer with higher prices and higher quality of service, Burberry should be self-explanatory, for the ladies, at least LOL) Nevertheless, the difference in targetted customer should be clear.]

Edited by Alyona Su

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36 minutes ago, Ruslana Koskinen said:

Around 2 years ago, I bought a Genesis head from a sale evening. The head seem lacking of something (i cannot remember). I sent NC to the creator and she replied me anything not from their shop do not support. Wording was so blunt. She slapped my face. Since then I never visited their shop once. So I hate those no support product. Second Life always improve and also create new bugs. It is so inevitable need help from the creator. Buy no support product is risk on your own $L.  

I don't think you meant to quote me lmao. That was a quote from Alyona Su.

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1 minute ago, Chase01 said:

I don't think you meant to quote me lmao. That was a quote from Alyona Su.

That could be a forum glitch, it's happened to me a couple times :)

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18 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

However, in SL it is 100% caveat emptor, a.k.a. "buyer beware"; there is no recourse to any perceived unfairness, legal or otherwise.

Yes, thank you. We already knew this. That is exactly why threads like this are so valuable. So buyers can be educated on the product and make a better decision for themselves.

23 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

In truth, their methods make strong business sense, customer support notwithstanding.

 

Do you own anything TMP?

33 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

There is low-margin/high-volume (a.k.a. Walmart or Costco) and there is high-margin/low-volume (a.k.a. Nordstrom Shoes or Burberry handbags) - in either case, Walmart will get Walmart Customers,  Nordrom's will get Nordstrom's customers, they target different markets. This is my main point. 

What does this even have to do with what we're talking about?

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18 minutes ago, Chase01 said:

Do you own anything TMP?

Never have, likely never will. I've tried to demo (when they were still a "thing" - hated the very "shopping experience". admittedly, curious about this new one, if for no reason other than knowledge about it, though if the shopping experience is the same or similar, then ~shruugs~

Do you own TMP?

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37 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

Never have, likely never will. I've tried to demo (when they were still a "thing" - hated the very "shopping experience". admittedly, curious about this new one, if for no reason other than knowledge about it, though if the shopping experience is the same or similar, then ~shruugs~

Do you own TMP?

I did, on an account that used to be my main. I loved it at first, but over time after constant broken promises by TMP. I Switched to Signature. It took them 6 years to finally release the update, that they said they would have out.

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1 hour ago, Alyona Su said:

Never have, likely never will. I've tried to demo (when they were still a "thing" - hated the very "shopping experience". admittedly, curious about this new one, if for no reason other than knowledge about it, though if the shopping experience is the same or similar, then ~shruugs~

Do you own TMP?

I do, yes. If you'd like to see my comments you're welcome to read my previous posts in this thread.

 

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Posted (edited)

I kinda really like the fact that include the deformers to get compatibility with 90% of the clothes, I've seen the deformers on the female avi but im not sure if they also have with the male one

For me, the 5k worth it because of that fact(compatibility), as I first joined second life, it was way too difficult to me to learn (and probably to many new users, so thats why they leave), learning how to dress an avatar was very painful to me, so the fact that this body let you have compatibility and kinda standarize that, really worth the 5k, well im still looking forward to BOM, I hope that will solve all the compatibility problems so the old alpha system would work again, the main reason I own all male popular bodies is that...compatibility, still I really like how tmp body looks like (I havent bought the legacy one, but im still thinking about it)

Edited by SwainCamps
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1 hour ago, SwainCamps said:

im still looking forward to BOM

me too. It will I think mean the eventual end of body onion layers, and alpha huds.  And after a time as BoM becomes the new standard, most (but not all) people will have boxed away, or outright deleted, their current bodies because new technology available to us. In the same way that most (but not all) people have boxed away, or outright deleted, all their prim clothes

we are kinda in a holding pattern at the moment as we wait for LL and for what BoM body designers will offer us. From what I have heard all the established body designers are working on BoM bodies, so is going to be quite interesting what they come up with technically

and interesting in how they position their offerings in terms of pricing and/or their current lifetime upgrade policy. Like is a BoM body a new product or does the designer see it as an upgrade. I would not be surprised, and I personally would be ok with, designers who present their BoM body as a new product, with a discount for their existing customers  

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Mollymews said:

we are kinda in a holding pattern at the moment as we wait for LL and for what BoM body designers will offer us. From what I have heard all the established body designers are working on BoM bodies, so is going to be quite interesting what they come up with technically

For anybody that's selling an avatar body using the standard SL body template and what not, it's pretty straight forward to set up from my own lil experience tinkering with it.

Those of us with non standard though gotta be a bit creative, but the system is still usable for us too, just won't have the benefit of existing texture clothes and what not.

Peeps would have to make custom tailored texture clothes and markings, tattoos, etc for the specific UV of the model in question, but it's doable!

Edited by Digit Gears

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I would have thought it extremely unlikely TMP will support BoM when it arrives.  Currently all textures applied to the TMP bodies have to be included in their system and can only be applied via the TMP HUD from their off-world database.  I have heard creators complaining about this in their groups, not being happy to have to supply textures that could potentially be misused one day and that this contributes to their reluctance to support TMP.  Supporting BoM would mean TMP would have to drop this control over textures they currently have and considering that no Omega support has been forthcoming, it seems highly likely they don't want to do this.

It will be interesting to see how this develops though.

 

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2 hours ago, Mollymews said:

me too. It will I think mean the eventual end of body onion layers, and alpha huds. 

I don't. The different mesh bodies will still have a different architecture that will still require skin makers to release specialty skins and one 'generic' that might fit all (or no) mesh bodies. Try downloading the Baked On Mesh test viewer and applying one of your old system skins to a variety of bodies. It doesn't work like that at all. And hands will always need an applier. Have you seen Maitreya hands with a generic Maitreya applier or nail polish? 

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I am not too much expectation on BoM. I tried the BoM technology testing viewer with Omega hud for lot of old skin. We can see the UVmap of each brand for head/body are so different, despite the baseline are the same, nothing specially design and draw for them would be hard to achieve the best result. At the end, it can certainly skip the hud, but it still need the skin designed for a particular mesh body.  

I am not sure whether BoM can directly apply to the TMP mesh body or not. But I am sure that it would not have any update for that. Any update may become a new product. I am sure their bento head is on the way. They will repeat the business model as Legacy. 

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Posted (edited)

you have to also know that this brand was founded on tricky from the start , some thing i have been personally crying about ever since they become a thing 
DAZ 3D is  a soft where like 3Ds max and Maya where those models are the default models that come with the soft where and they just happened to be a 100% identical to the one used by the TMP brand , i almost believe that they just exported them as they are with no effort , and the updates to the softwhere match the timing of them updating their so called '' product ''  , coincidence ?
https://www.daz3d.com/ <--- see for your self
daz3d.jpg.5bac994cbc115ba79994258e24619ce3.jpg

Edited by vvvRavenvvv
typos
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13 hours ago, Chase01 said:

We are not salespeople for TMP and consumers are entitled to express their opinion of value.

there is a bigger issue with acting like this 
yes whoever creates some thing can put whatever price they want on some thing and whoever buys it is free to do so 

but you have to understand that this is the free market 
some business practices are malicious in nature and this one is a very good example 
to make matters worse , if we allow or even go to support people practicing such malicious tactics we allow other brands who would usually shy from using them to quickly adopt them , the consumer ( you ) dont seem to mind them , before you knwo it , every content creator will just make EA their idol 
not acceptable 
malicious practices should never ever be greeted with  the '' you do you '' attitude , because it infects the market  and soon you lose your choice 

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34 minutes ago, vvvRavenvvv said:

you have to also know that this brand was founded on tricky from the start , some thing i have been personally crying about ever since they become a thing 
DAZ 3D is  a soft where like 3Ds max and Maya where those models are the default models that come with the soft where and they just happened to be a 100% identical to the one used by the TMP brand , i almost believe that they just exported them as they are with no effort , and the updates to the softwhere match the timing of them updating their so called '' product ''  , coincidence ?
https://www.daz3d.com/ <--- see for your self
daz3d.jpg.5bac994cbc115ba79994258e24619ce3.jpg

This is a pretty heavy accusation. You're going to need to back it up with more proof than this. Yes, TMP/The Shops have had sketchy business practices from jump, but accusations of ripping/copying need substantial evidence. 

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Blaise Glendevon said:

You're going to need to back it up with more proof

maybe you need to read what i said
first i made an conclusion not a claim in which i said  the following 

 

49 minutes ago, vvvRavenvvv said:

i almost believe that they just exported them as they are with no effort

13 minutes ago, Blaise Glendevon said:

the updates to the softwhere match the timing of them updating their so called '' product ''  , coincidence ?

49 minutes ago, vvvRavenvvv said:

They just happened to be a 100% identical to the one used by the TMP brand

i didnt make a claim i made an observation  
in the first line i said '' believe'' that  means i have no  solid proof , just a genuine feeling , and not a hollow one at that because in this case  there are indications as to where this believe came from  which can be seen in the 2nd and 3rd lines
that is what a detection is , an observation  , if you want proof you can put some time and effort to clear out that this is NOT the case 
the burden of proof is on them not me , they claim that its  product they made , when i compare it to this plus the update times and even the rigging issues it has  i  can fairly assume so and voice my assumption 
had i said YES that IS what they did then i would be the one making the claim and i will be the one having to prove what i just said but i didn't , i merely stated my detection and if anyone has any thing to disprove this information or correct it then by all means 

Edited by vvvRavenvvv
typos

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1 hour ago, Blaise Glendevon said:

I don't. The different mesh bodies will still have a different architecture that will still require skin makers to release specialty skins and one 'generic' that might fit all (or no) mesh bodies. Try downloading the Baked On Mesh test viewer and applying one of your old system skins to a variety of bodies. It doesn't work like that at all. And hands will always need an applier. Have you seen Maitreya hands with a generic Maitreya applier or nail polish? 

yes. From what I gather the established designers are making new bodies that take advantage of BoM. As these BoM-enabled bodies become more commonly available then the current bodies will get retired by us the users. And yes there will be some people who will continue to use the old bodies as they do now. Just that should BoM bodies be preferred by their customers then the old bodies will not be upgraded by the designers

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Just now, Mollymews said:

yes. From what I gather the established designers are making new bodies that take advantage of BoM. As these BoM-enabled bodies become more commonly available then the current bodies will get retired by us the users. And yes there will be some people who will continue to use the old bodies as they do now. Just that should BoM bodies be preferred by their customers then the old bodies will not be upgraded by the designers

I honestly wouldn't mind the BOM work-around used in the test viewer, where the BOM layers are applied to the current mesh body with an Omega HUD. Using both for different purposes would be perfect for me. Clothes and cosmetics on the BOM layer, appliers for skin.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Blaise Glendevon said:

you haven't presented any. 

you are saying that me noticing that 

A

24 minutes ago, Blaise Glendevon said:

the updates to the softwhere match the timing of them updating their so called '' product ''

 

B

24 minutes ago, Blaise Glendevon said:

those models are the default models that come with the soft where and they just happened to be a 100% identical to the one used by the TMP brand

you want to say that A+B are not enough for  me  to reach this conclusion ? even when i added 

C

15 minutes ago, vvvRavenvvv said:

the same rigging issues it has 

some how i still need to  do their work for them ? , how about no , i didnt make the brand , they did , so they have to disprove me some how , first explain WHY my observation A and B are not against them , THEN provide an alternative information THEN they have to prove it

Edited by vvvRavenvvv
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