Inworld Store Closure - Similar to RL Blue Laws

[Bitsy Buccaneer]

6 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

Didn't know that about the SDA. That's about all I want to know about them.

Also, this is the internet. Basic and normal behavior shouldn't be assumed.

Seventh Day Adventists observe a Friday-Saturday Sabbath and refrain from working on it and that's enough for you to write them off altogether? OK.

Why should norms of respect be excluded from the internet? I know that's where things have gotten, but do they really need to be that way? Can't we try for better? Respecting another person's wishes still seems to me to be a basic and normal thing to do, even on the internet.

[Bitsy Buccaneer]

22 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

Honestly Bitsy, I had hoped someone would have thought to ask if what I had been stating earlier was my personal opinion or not.

And yes, I am a bit of an arse and a bit pedantic on that.

Yes, I will often give my opinion from the outset, especially in threads where opinions are being asked for. In this case tough I felt it was necessary to lead with how Second Life's systems treat things and what options one has on a system level.

It was not my intention to give the impression that those responses reflected my opinion.

I need to log off now but I will read over the thread again when I'm able with an eye to seeing if I made a mistake. I did re-read your posts a few times during our interaction but perhaps I missed something.

May I just say though that you had more information about the misunderstandings and that put you in a better position to realise and clarify it. Repeating what was misunderstood just reinforces the misunderstanding. I will try to remember these things about you, but maybe this is something you can take on board too?

KRs x

[Solar Legion]

3 minutes ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

I need to log off now but I will read over the thread again when I'm able with an eye to seeing if I made a mistake. I did re-read your posts a few times during our interaction but perhaps I missed something.

May I just say though that you had more information about the misunderstandings and that put you in a better position to realise and clarify it. Repeating what was misunderstood just reinforces the misunderstanding. I will try to remember these things about you, but maybe this is something you can take on board too?

KRs x

Like I said, I can be a bit of a pedantic arse at times ... It honestly depends on my mood though much of the time I prefer that if someone wishes to know my thoughts/opinions on something that they ask for them a bit more directly.

From where I sit the main interaction was predicated on the assumption that the majority of my statements reflected my opinion and thus that there was either some deeper reasoning behind such blunt, fairly straight forward statements or that something was not being communicated properly.

I was treated the requests for clarification as not understanding what had been stated rather plainly, not as a request for clarification of or a statement of my views.

A bit of a mutual misunderstanding/error there.

[Sookie Perlmann]

3 hours ago, BelindaN said:

The thing is, my timezone isn't compatible with a specific 24hour period where a store owner might reside.  So it might be Sunday 'there' but it might be Monday 'here'. 

And in RL I can buy on line 24/7, so I just don't understand why a store in SL, a virtual world, would do that, when transactions by and large are automated.

It doesn't bother me at all, I just don't get why.

It's not like it's a pharmacy and you need your medicine to survive lol why not just be respectful of someone religion and wishes?

[Skell Dagger]

2 hours ago, Fionalein said:

You camshop on Shabbes - you're banned - easy as pie.

Devil's advocate:

• Shopper has banlines disabled in their viewer because they have an unreasonable neighbour who has put them up and they're visible through the walls of their own home.
• Store is in a laggy location or Shopper is on a poor connection that means they tend to land, take one step aside, and then camshop.
• It's Saturday or Monday where Shopper lives, and Shopper has no idea - because of the lack of banlines and the presence of working vendors inside the store - that Store Owner has "closed their shop" because - where Store Owner is - it's a Sunday, and they don't want sales on that day.
• Shopper gets banned, and has no idea what the hell they did wrong, as they had no visual clues whatsoever that Store Owner didn't want to make sales on that day.

Is it unreasonable to expect that - given those very real possibilities - the Shop Owner would either disable their vendors (perhaps with a custom texture on them stating "This store is closed on Sundays - please come back at XYZ time SLT!") or rezzes out very visible and obvious signs to the same effect?

[MoiraKathleen]

3 minutes ago, Skell Dagger said:

Is it unreasonable to expect that - given those very real possibilities - the Shop Owner would either disable their vendors (perhaps with a custom texture on them stating "This store is closed on Sundays - please come back at XYZ time SLT!") or rezzes out very visible and obvious signs to the same effect?

I don't think that's unreasonable, and to be fair, in the initial post, for the particular store which started this discussion, she said that there was a notice in the store (which is how she became aware of the situation).  I would hope that the store notice is very visible and that it would include times (either notated as SLT or the time zone that the owner's RL is in).

[Skell Dagger]

18 minutes ago, moirakathleen said:

I would hope that the store notice is very visible and that it would include times (either notated as SLT or the time zone that the owner's RL is in).

Indeed visible and preferably rezzed in multiple locations (if the store is anything more than a very small one), as some people may just use area search to find an item and not actually look around the store, or might have picked up demos the day before and know exactly where they need to cam in order to find the vendor the next day (again, assuming that the "Closed on Sundays" ads might only be rezzed out on Sundays ; there are multiple potential parameters here!). Closing down vendors - assuming those are used instead of the classic click-to-purchase prim ads - with a custom texture would at least prevent any "I didn't even see the notice!" protests from those who don't look around the whole store, for whatever reason. Or possibly a large textured prim could be rezzed in front of the vendors that gives out an information notecard about the Sunday closure when clicked?

Edited November 30, 2018 by Skell Dagger

[MoiraKathleen]

Given the apparent aversion many shoppers have towards reading signs and/or notecards, I'm sure there will be complaints no matter how many signs are posted, or whether the vendors are active or not.    I can just see a rant in the forums in the future, about someone complaining about a store where they had to - all of a sudden (it was fine yesterday) - cam in because of ban lines, and then even after doing that, the vendors weren't working?!?  Or the vendors were working, but they subsequently got (unfairly) banned from the store (and LL should do something about that!!!!)

[LittleMe Jewell]

8 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

  the original poster's refusal just to simply and quietly accept the reason for a person's request related to religious practice.

 

I brought it up for two reasons:  I was curious if anyone else had encountered anything similar in SL before and per my normal curiosity, I was interested in knowing where within a religion the concept of online sales / receiving money fell, even when the person is doing no active work.  I do not know the specifics on most religions, especially any that considers the Sabbath to run from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset.

As I said before, I don't have any issue with not being able to shop at the store during that time.  The closure had simply sparked some curiosities in me.

 

 

6 hours ago, Akasha Sternberg said:

it´s kind of interesting to see it in SL, too - I´ve never encountered that before.

IMHO it caters to those screaming for realism and "SL IS LIKE RL!!!!!!!!11111!!!!1" cos - believe it or not.... in Germany shops are closed on Sundays (well 99% of the shops are...) it might be an old religious tradition, yes, but there´s work-communities and contracts stating that Sundays are off... Just now the city of Bonn had their "advent shopping Sundays" cancelled by the District Courthouse in Cologne. We live

@LittleMe Jewell did you gather any more info about the owners? Are they german? (yes I use the lower case on purpose...no I´m not patriotic...) and... would you mind poking me inworld with some names?^^ I´m seriously intrigued who´d do that ^^ I mean on one hand it shows they hold their values close, even put them over profit (cos they lose a whole day of inworld income - not including the marketplace^^), on the other hand apparently they even repell people by it... For the record - I´m religious, roman catholic, too, but I´m not much of a hardliner so there´s a grey area, too

I didn't send the owner any questions - I simply read the notice about the closure and was curious if anyone had ever come across such in SL before.

 

 

6 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

They want their store closed on the Sabbath. Like RL.

That doesn't really answer the question of how passively receiving money fits into any specific religion.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Tamara Artis said:

 SL is perfect place to see how other people, religions, nations do certain things. But, what is sad, instead of trying to find something positive in their rules, we focus on the differences. It is not a competition and we're not trying to find the best religion or best kind of people. 

 

The bolded part -- that is exactly why I opened the thread - to discuss why or how SL sales, without actively working, fit into a religion.  I'm not dissing the person in any way and fully support their right to not sell anything during any period they wish.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

I certainly respect anyone's desire to respect Shabbat, but in Second Life there are significant problems with doing it.

The merchant is saying that their Shabbat goes from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. What determines that? It should be the time when the sun sets for the merchant, but the customer would probably have no way of knowing that, especially given that the exact time of sunset changes every day. I'm curious how the merchant plans to enforce this.

This, of course, completely ignores the fact that the sun rises and sets every four hours in Second Life.

I'm not sure of where the owner is from, so I don't know what their time frame is that would be corresponding to the SL time frame of sunset Friday through sunset Saturday.  The owner did mention in the notice that the "exact moment" of closure and re-opening would likely vary by a bit each day.

 

 

 

As to the banning aspect, the owner specifically said that a person would not be banned on their first time of cam shopping, but would be contacted.  If the cam shopping then happened again, they would be banned.

 

I do find the concept of how online sales interplay with religious views & practices to be an interesting topic.

 

[Donna Underall]

1 minute ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I brought it up for two reasons:  I was curious if anyone else had encountered anything similar in SL before and per my normal curiosity, I was interested in knowing where within a religion the concept of online sales / receiving money fell, even when the person is doing no active work.  I do not know the specifics on most religions, especially any that considers the Sabbath to run from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset.

What about when SL time isn't synced with RL time?

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

6 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

They want their store closed on the Sabbath. Like RL.

That doesn't really answer the question of how passively receiving money fits into any specific religion.

It may. Want me to google it? Later, I posted also that a valid reason to not want sales that day is, they are not available to support on the Sabbath.

[ThorinII]

1 hour ago, Sookie Perlmann said:

why not just be respectful of someone religion and wishes?

Why should anyone be that?

When I do go to a store inworld, I want to shop there, period. And if the door is closed but the vendors are active, of course, I'd use these vendors to buy stuff. No matter what some signs say.

[LittleMe Jewell]

1 hour ago, moirakathleen said:

I don't think that's unreasonable, and to be fair, in the initial post, for the particular store which started this discussion, she said that there was a notice in the store (which is how she became aware of the situation).  I would hope that the store notice is very visible and that it would include times (either notated as SLT or the time zone that the owner's RL is in).

 

44 minutes ago, Skell Dagger said:

Indeed visible and preferably rezzed in multiple locations (if the store is anything more than a very small one), as some people may just use area search to find an item and not actually look around the store, or might have picked up demos the day before and know exactly where they need to cam in order to find the vendor the next day (again, assuming that the "Closed on Sundays" ads might only be rezzed out on Sundays ; there are multiple potential parameters here!). Closing down vendors - assuming those are used instead of the classic click-to-purchase prim ads - with a custom texture would at least prevent any "I didn't even see the notice!" protests from those who don't look around the whole store, for whatever reason. Or possibly a large textured prim could be rezzed in front of the vendors that gives out an information notecard about the Sunday closure when clicked?

I didn't spend any time looking around for other notices, but may do so this evening.

 

 

10 minutes ago, Donna Underall said:

What about when SL time isn't synced with RL time?

I did also mention that I wasn't sure of the owner's timezone and thus not totally sure what hours the "SL Friday sunset to Saturday sunset" actually are for the owner.

 

 

 

8 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

It may. Want me to google it? Later, I posted also that a valid reason to not want sales that day is, they are not available to support on the Sabbath.

Given that support is not necessarily tied directly to the moment of sale, and thus the owner could be getting support IMs throughout Friday evening and all days Saturnday now, I highly doubt that support has anything to do with it. 

I'm pretty sure it falls into that area that a few have mentioned as "passive sales" are forbidden by the religion - that concept just never dawned on me before.

 

I did go check and while the store has an MP, it is empty.  Not sure if they previously had the MP populated or if it has always been empty.  The owner has been in SL for over a decade.

 

[MoiraKathleen]

2 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I'm pretty sure it falls into that area that a few have mentioned as "passive sales" are forbidden by the religion - that concept just never dawned on me before.

It could be that the religious beliefs have prohibitions or guidelines against commerce on Sabbath, and the individual has decided to interpret that as any type of sales, whether passive or not.  Or perhaps the particular set of prohibitions or guidelines have been updated to include internet sales.  I could see a situation where a person could feel as if their inworld persona was skirting around something that was part of their core beliefs, and that they finally reached a point where they needed to have harmony between their inworld self and their RL self.  

[Tari Landar]

9 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

This is a lot of non-grounded hypothesizing which again, was based on the original poster's refusal just to simply and quietly accept the reason for a person's request related to religious practice.

If they didn't shut their MP, maybe it's because it's too much of a hassle to take it down and put it up again. At least they've mitigated it by making a request for a soft norm, i.e. even if "you can" because of some electronic exigency, you won't, as a courtesy. It also saves people buying something, then wanting customer service, then finding the merchant isn't available.

Why is this so hard? It's not.

 Putting out a sign that a store is closed and requesting that people not buy on the Sabbath is merely making and placing a sign. It's not work. It isn't "taking all necessary steps" as if they are binding themselves up with seven chains. It's just a request. Sounds like the hard work is in people accepting it, and "needing" to have an explanation for it.

The hell you arguing with me about this for?  I didn't hypothesize anything, I declared *my* experience, nothing more, nothing less. I'm not judging the religious beliefs of others, in the slightest. In fact, I respect them for holding their beliefs so true and dear that they are committed enough to uphold every rule presented to them by their beliefs...because *I* could not do it. 

I see nothing wrong at all with shuttering one's business, for whatever time necessary, to uphold one's beliefs. I think you saw a contrarian attitude where one didn't exist. You might want to read my words again, I assure you, I'm not knocking them, nor do I *need an explanation. If asked not to shop at their location, hell even if the doors were wide open, I would respect that. I don't have to share beliefs with someone to feel, very strongly, they are allowed to have them, or feel strongly that I should respect them(and I very much do). 

 

Edited November 30, 2018 by Tari Landar

[Madelaine McMasters]

9 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

That doesn't really answer the question of how passively receiving money fits into any specific religion.

I first encountered this idea way back in college. I've wondered about it and analogous situations ever since, I had a conversation with someone who's religion (I don't remember what it was) prohibited earning money on the Sabbath. I asked if he had an interest bearing savings account. He did. I then described that the balance in such accounts earns interest every day of the week, and wondered if that posed a conflict. I got a frown, but no answer.

Years later, this topic came up again with another person, who explained that such interest doesn't count unless it's withdrawn from the account on the Sabbath, and she never withdraws money on the Sabbath. I asked about checks from an interest bearing account written by her and cashed by someone unaware of the Sabbath rule, where the bank clears the check on GMT while she's living in PST.

"They cashed the check, not me." That was a more interesting answer than the more typical "Do you always have to be such a pain in the neck, Maddy?", but I still found it wanting.

In both of my discussions, I had the impression that the person's understanding of the proscription, and the intention behind it, was as thin as their understanding of the impossibility of avoiding the proscribed behavior completely. Imagine how difficult it would be to run a religion if the hierarchy had to observe the letter of the law, rather than the intent. What parts of a religiously affiliated hospital would you be able to run on the Sabbath (ER?) and which not (cafeteria?). If you follow the intent, running a hospital becomes much easier.

I suspect that the gods of the World's religions understand the complexities of modern living better than the humans who're doing the living. It would be reasonable to believe that they'll judge accordingly and that their understanding will eventually trickle down to the humans, who'll adjust their interpretation of scripture.

8 hours ago, Tari Landar said:

I'm not judging the religious beliefs of others, in the slightest. In fact, I respect them for holding their beliefs so true and dear that they are committed enough to uphold every rule presented to them by their beliefs...because *I* could not do it. 

Whether you think you can, or think you can't... you're right - Henry Ford

As an atheist, I can still appreciate the intention behind keeping the Sabbath or its equivalent. There is value in stepping back from the hustle and bustle of daily living to recognize what's important and to recharge.

A quick Googling finds this...

https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/selling-online-and-sabbath-keeping.66981/

Edited December 1, 2018 by Madelaine McMasters
Fixing punctuation, so I can complain about others'.

[AyelaNewLife]

First off, if a creator were to say "No customer support or manual redeliveries on Saturdays", I would have zero problem with that. That's totally fine, whether for religious reasons or just raw laziness.

If a creator wants to shut down their automated vendors and marketplace because of a personal conviction that prevents them from "working" on a given day - stuff that requires no work or input from them to keep running - then... that's less ideal, but still okay I guess. That's logically coherent.

But if a creator wants to keep their marketplace shop open (so they'll still be selling stuff and making money), keep the inworld vendors open (so they'll still be selling stuff and making money), yet claim that they're closing the store on the Sabbath and then banning anyone that buys anything from the shops that they left open, that's stupid. They're not actually closing the store and therefore not meeting their own definition of keeping the Sabbath, they're just causing problems for themselves and for their customers for no actual benefit.

Now they're allowed to do stupid things, of course. That's part of the free economy of SL. But I'm allowed to say that their decisions are stupid, and that life's too short to deal with such nonsense, and to go shop elsewhere instead.

My 2p, for what little it's worth.

[Callum Meriman]

3 hours ago, Skell Dagger said:

Devil's advocate:

• ....

Is it unreasonable to expect that - given those very real possibilities - the Shop Owner would either disable their vendors (perhaps with a custom texture on them stating "This store is closed on Sundays - please come back at XYZ time SLT!") or rezzes out very visible and obvious signs to the same effect?

It's also not hard to place a prim over vendors, can be done in a holodeck so 1 button to press.

[Madelaine McMasters]

3 minutes ago, AyelaNewLife said:

First off, if a creator were to say "No customer support or manual redeliveries on Saturdays", I would have zero problem with that. That's totally fine, whether for religious reasons or just raw laziness.

If a creator wants to shut down their automated vendors and marketplace because of a personal conviction that prevents them from "working" on a given day - stuff that requires no work or input from them to keep running - then... that's less ideal, but still okay I guess. That's logically coherent.

But if a creator wants to keep their marketplace shop open (so they'll still be selling stuff and making money), keep the inworld vendors open (so they'll still be selling stuff and making money), yet claim that they're closing the store on the Sabbath and then banning anyone that buys anything from the shops that they left open, that's stupid. They're not actually closing the store and therefore not meeting their own definition of keeping the Sabbath, they're just causing problems for themselves and for their customers for no actual benefit.

Now they're allowed to do stupid things, of course. That's part of the free economy of SL. But I'm allowed to say that their decisions are stupid, and that life's too short to deal with such nonsense, and to go shop elsewhere instead.

My 2p, for what little it's worth.

The discussion I linked on puritanboard.com gets into this a little. Subjecting patrons to banning as the result of making a purchase on the Sabbath, according to reasoning there, might be a violation of "Love thy neighbor". That reasoning has merit.

[Love Zhaoying]

6 minutes ago, Callum Meriman said:

It's also not hard to place a prim over vendors, can be done in a holodeck so 1 button to press.

Like a vinyl cover over a BBQ grill.

[Callum Meriman]

5 hours ago, Syo Emerald said:

Most people understand, that you can't always answer within 24 hours and its possible to manage a store and vacation.

The number of people who expect a support question answered in under 5 minutes is pretty high.

Quote

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[09:00:00]  Second Life: User not online - message will be stored and delivered later.
[09:00:01]  Silli.Resident: Look, I have a huge problem with your hair
[09:00:01]  Second Life: User not online - message will be stored and delivered later.
[09:00:02]  Silli.Resident: Are you there yet?
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[09:00:03]  Silli.Resident: what ***** service you *** **** **** **** and should *** your ****
[09:00:03]  Second Life: User not online - message will be stored and delivered later.
[09:00:04]  Silli.Resident: Muted and reported too! Have a nice day.
[09:00:04]  Second Life: User not online - message will be stored and delivered later.

 

[Selene Gregoire]

Haven't really read the thread yet but wanted to get my 2 cents in, just in case.

What hours a store sets to do business (RL or SL) within is up to the business owner. Their reason(s) for choosing a certain day/time to be closed isn't relevant. There was a time when store hours weren't as convenient as they are today. It isn't about what is convenient for the consumer. It's about what works for the owner/operator of the business.

[LittleMe Jewell]

21 minutes ago, AyelaNewLife said:

First off, if a creator were to say "No customer support or manual redeliveries on Saturdays", I would have zero problem with that. That's totally fine, whether for religious reasons or just raw laziness.

If a creator wants to shut down their automated vendors and marketplace because of a personal conviction that prevents them from "working" on a given day - stuff that requires no work or input from them to keep running - then... that's less ideal, but still okay I guess. That's logically coherent.

But if a creator wants to keep their marketplace shop open (so they'll still be selling stuff and making money), keep the inworld vendors open (so they'll still be selling stuff and making money), yet claim that they're closing the store on the Sabbath and then banning anyone that buys anything from the shops that they left open, that's stupid. They're not actually closing the store and therefore not meeting their own definition of keeping the Sabbath, they're just causing problems for themselves and for their customers for no actual benefit.

Now they're allowed to do stupid things, of course. That's part of the free economy of SL. But I'm allowed to say that their decisions are stupid, and that life's too short to deal with such nonsense, and to go shop elsewhere instead.

My 2p, for what little it's worth.

Well, in this case, the person does not have an MP. 

Since they made the statement about banning for multiple occurrences of cam shopping, then I assume the store vendors will still be up.  I'm guessing that there will either be ban lines during the down time or a security orb that boots everyone from the parcel, so you'd have to definitely know that you are not getting physical access to the store property and make a decision to shop from the neighboring parcel / store.

I've never wanted to buy something bad enough that I would ever try camming in from another location if a security orb or ban lines did not let me actually get to the store.

However, if I did not know the reason for such and it happened multiple weekends, I'd probably take the store off my shopping list. 

 

Side note here -- the store does participate in 55L Thursday and 60L weekends.  That might also make a difference in how people view this closure.

 

Edited November 30, 2018 by LittleMe Jewell

[Tari Landar]

40 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

As an atheist, I can still appreciate the intention behind keeping the Sabbath or it's equivalent. There is value in stepping back from the hustle and bustle of daily living to recognize what's important and to recharge.

 

Oh, I ensure that I take time to recharge my batteries, so to speak, I make sure my whole family does. It's super easy to let life get to ya, everyone needs time to wind down, focus on important things they might not have had time to focus on before, and generally..escape, as it were.

I do that more frequently now than I ever have, and I can definitely appreciate the intention behind those who take the time to do it(religious beliefs or not). But I also know that if I were of a religion that required it, or had other requirements, I couldn't do it. I only know I couldn't, because I spent my entire life, until well into adulthood, taking part in a religion that had some very similar (and other) requirements that I came to realize were unrealistic, difficult for most, and impossible for me. 

[Madelaine McMasters]

1 minute ago, Tari Landar said:

Oh, I ensure that I take time to recharge my batteries, so to speak, I make sure my whole family does. It's super easy to let life get to ya, everyone needs time to wind down, focus on important things they might not have had time to focus on before, and generally..escape, as it were.

I do that more frequently now than I ever have, and I can definitely appreciate the intention behind those who take the time to do it(religious beliefs or not). But I also know that if I were of a religion that required it, or had other requirements, I couldn't do it. I only know I couldn't, because I spent my entire life, until well into adulthood, taking part in a religion that had some very similar (and other) requirements that I came to realize were unrealistic, difficult for most, and impossible for me. 

Avoiding the proscribed passive earnings on the Sabbath behavior was impossible for both of the people I mentioned, yet neither of them believed they were in conflict. The reality of a situation doesn't change with our perception of it. I might argue that you, like me, think too much about things, and therefore discover boatloads of impossibilities (boatloads of possibilities too!). But, I bet we both have misperceptions that allow us to believe things that just aren't true. Again, whether you believe you can, or you believe you can't...

Thinking too much is fun!