Are we afraid to talk about who creates low lag mesh bodies?

[Ceka Cianci]

1 hour ago, Eirynne Sieyes said:

Lots of denial, opposition, and rationalization going on!

Like I said earlier, log in on a low setting. You will find that SLINK and EBODY are visible; most others are not. Just goes to show that some designers know how to design. 

If we can get past ourselves, we may get the offenders to continue making beautiful things in a way that increases everybody's performance. 

And, for the record, SL has historically touted itself as playable by even low end users.

I will not be posting to this thread anymore. I don't want to fight or argue. I have pointed out my observations and and ask you to put aside your biases and consider what I've said. 

Have a great day!

 

 

Disagreeing doesn't equal arguing..I just don't agree since I know there was a worse time in the past..

So I still say as I did from the very start..It's way less bloated today than before. Way less.

[Chic Aeon]

MAITREYA

Edited August 28, 2018 by Chic Aeon

[Syo Emerald]

To quote this person from their first thread: "I know very litte about mesh".

Seems like its mesh _and_ lag.

[Phorumities]

2 hours ago, Eirynne Sieyes said:

Try going in on low. Most will be jelly. Ask people who you can see what they are wearing. Very interesting...

I guess if you change your settings to low it automatically lowers the arc limit that will start jellying avatars.

Try setting the arc limit yourself instead of letting the viewer set a limit for you.

then you will see the effect avatars have on your frame rate

[Nalates Urriah]

1 hour ago, Jupiter Firelyte said:

How do you know ...

How do you know ...

Professional standards? What professional standards? The problem of avatars and mesh should never have been ours to solve. Linden Lab should have taken care of it years ago. The pressure should be on them, not the designers who took it upon themselves to create a hack to improve the appearance of avatars.

The questions you use to challenge statements are valid. I suspect in most cases the statements are opinion or repetition of something people have heard and accepted as true without any objective validation. They are just repeating what they heard.

But, the 'standards' ideas you voice are just wrong. There are accepted goals in 3D modeling for real time games. These might be called 'best practices', but whatever they are called they easily fit the definition of 'standards'. One can find them in any 3D modeling course. A whole series of do this not that...

As to who has the responsibility for content... that is us. Not the Lab. The Lab could go all Blue-Mars-fascist and tightly control everything uploaded to SL. How did that work out? Instead they provide us artistic freedom to create whatever we want at whatever skill level we have. So, as a beginner one can be uploading and enjoying SL. They don't have to spend time tediously learning the fine details of 3D model optimization. That certainly has its downsides. BUT... SL is still here and several similar efforts that have tried to limit content to ONLY optimized content have closed. One learns from history, or they don't.

I see your thinking about having the 'Lab fix it' as the current day equivalent of promoting the nanny state. People  in favor of the nanny state think someone has to make 'other' people DO IT RIGHT so they are not inconvenienced. They forget large bureaucracies turn into fascist states and force everyone to conform. Creative freedom... well, freedom period... vanishes.

You misuse the term hacked... but, we get your meaning. Designers have found ways to game the ACI system to get low ACI numbers. They didn't hack/change the system to accomplish their goals. They are taking advantage of what they have to work with.

The Lab is planning to correct ACI and remove incentive to use some of the loop holes currently found in the system. They continuously work to improve SL. But, they also strongly consider artistic freedom and avoid infringing on it. The coming changes are expected provide incentive, not limits or restrictions, to use better LoD models and lower poly counts. BoM is hoped to remove the incentive to use onion skinned models. As technology changes, SL changes and the design criteria used by the Lab changes with it. They could not have anticipated today's tech in any way that would allow them to 'have handled this years ago'.

[Janet Voxel]

Nobody’s agreeing with OP

[ChinRey]

17 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

Try setting the arc limit yourself instead of letting the viewer set a limit for you.

then you will see the effect avatars have on your frame rate

Me sighs

How many times do I have to say this in the same thread?

ARC has nothing whatsoever to do with how a fitted mesh affects frame rate or any other lag factor! A fairly low lag fitted mesh may well show up with quite high ARC while a really laggy one may show up with neglible ARC.

This is mainly caused by a serious bug (or rather two serious bugs) that is well documented here for those who care to read:

https://community.secondlife.com/forums/topic/419469-rigged-mesh-lod-bug/

 

[ChinRey]

13 minutes ago, janetosilio said:

Nobody’s agreeing with OP

I do agree with the OP on principle - at least to some degree.

But we do not at the moment have any reasonably good way to measure fitmesh lag and that means we can not - and should not try to - list who are the good and who are the bad ones. It is possible that project Arctan will fix that but even if it does, it'll probably still be many motnhs before it's launched.

Edited August 28, 2018 by ChinRey

[Phorumities]

2 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

Me sighs

How many times do I have to say this in the same thread?

ARC has nothing whatsoever to do with how a fitted mesh affects frame rate or any other lag factor! A fairly low lag fitted mesh may well show up with quite high ARC while a really laggy one may show up with neglible ARC.

This is mainly caused by a serious bug (or rather two serious bugs) that is well documented here for those who care to read:

https://community.secondlife.com/forums/topic/419469-rigged-mesh-lod-bug/

 

everything you say, i'm sure its all true but all i know is if i jelly everyone my frame rate goes up and my computer doesnt overheat and go to sleep.

i cant determine who has "good" mesh and who has "bad" mesh, but lowering the arc limit, lowering draw, derendering "stuff" and throttling my frame rate allows me to have a reasonable existence in SL.

when i get my shiny new computer with a top of the line graphics card ill probably still jelly everyone run at med/high with minimum shaders and no shadows because, why not?

 

[ChinRey]

7 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

everything you say, i'm sure its all true but all i know is if i jelly everyone my frame rate goes up and my computer doesnt overheat and go to sleep.

Oh yes. Any avatar you derender will reduce the overall lag, even if they are the least laggy ones. That goes without saying. But that's only about how many avatars you're asking your computer to handle. You might as well pick avatars at random to jellybean as to base it on their ARC.

In any case, this thread is about which mesh bodies are the least laggy and ARC says nothing about that.

Edited August 28, 2018 by ChinRey

[Ceka Cianci]

Why were we doing this again? Because I'm not sure what is supposed to happen when I go to low settings..Things seem to just run better is all.

This is with Genus Project beta head and Maitreya body and BonBon mesh hair mesh shirt and mesh shorts and mesh shoes with mesh socks in mah mesh home with my mesh furniture..

 

 

Edited August 28, 2018 by Ceka Cianci

[Nalates Urriah]

8 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

I do agree with the OP on principle - at least to some degree.

But we do not at the moment have any reasonably good way to measure fitmesh lag and that means we can not - and should not try to - list who are the good and who are the bad ones. It is possible that project Arctan will fix that but even if it does, it'll probably still be many months before it's launched.

ChinRey's link is to a good post where their conclusions are based on their testing and measuring. A good opportunity to move off opinion.

I would rephrase her "should not try". Looking to see who makes decently optimized content based on ARC/ACI is going to be misleading. But, we can press Ctrl-Shift-R and look at the item in wire frame view. So... shouldn't try based on ACI...

To get an idea of what is reasonable, look at the classic avatar in wire frame, 7,000+ polys. With the recent video cards the render speed measured in polys per second has exploded. So, two are three times the density of the classic avatar isn't ALL THAT bad. But, less remains better.

[Janet Voxel]

19 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

Why were we doing this again?

Because 3 or 4 similar topics just aren’t enough.

Edited August 28, 2018 by janetosilio

[Nalates Urriah]

8 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

Why were we doing this again? Because I'm not sure what is supposed to happen when I go to low settings..Things seem to just run better is all.

The idea was to force a Jelly Doll kick in, which will never happen with your avatar only other avatars. So, try it at a landing hub or any place with lots of avatars. Preferably one where the people are spending some money on their avatars and wearing mesh.

Ctrl-Shift-R can give you better idea of which mesh is better designed. But, you have to understand what you are looking at. So... it is probably less explaining to say change from a Quality setting to Performance and see who goes to Jelly.

As to 'runs better'... We balance quality versus performance. So, our ideas of better are pretty fluid. The more advanced we are in our understanding of 3D rendering the more likely we are to knock the slider back a notch or two from what we like and tweak individual settings to get a better look and performance level we are willing to live with than from just tweaking the slider. 

http://blog.nalates.net/2016/06/05/nvidia-settings-2016/

More detailed explanations: http://blog.nalates.net/2010/12/17/graphics-tweaking-for-second-life/ (2010)

[Ceka Cianci]

10 minutes ago, janetosilio said:

Because 3 or 4 similar topics just aren’t enough.

I think this one and the other thread they made are the only ones I've been in..

The only reason I chimed in is because they made it sound like it's worse now than before,which it's not..

Edited August 28, 2018 by Ceka Cianci

[Jupiter Firelyte]

1 hour ago, Nalates Urriah said:

As to who has the responsibility for content... that is us. Not the Lab. The Lab could go all Blue-Mars-fascist and tightly control everything uploaded to SL. How did that work out? Instead they provide us artistic freedom to create whatever we want at whatever skill level we have. So, as a beginner one can be uploading and enjoying SL. They don't have to spend time tediously learning the fine details of 3D model optimization. That certainly has its downsides. BUT... SL is still here and several similar efforts that have tried to limit content to ONLY optimized content have closed. One learns from history, or they don't.

I see your thinking about having the 'Lab fix it' as the current day equivalent of promoting the nanny state. People  in favor of the nanny state think someone has to make 'other' people DO IT RIGHT so they are not inconvenienced. They forget large bureaucracies turn into fascist states and force everyone to conform. Creative freedom... well, freedom period... vanishes.

It's a big leap from 'fix this one thing' to 'remove all creative freedom'. I'm not sure how you landed on fascism, but let me assume that I didn't express myself well enough. 

I was not referring to content. The avatar is not user created. It's user enhanced. Mesh bodies have become something creators make, and that's fine, no issues with that. But the avatars were created by Linden Lab. The mesh bodies solved some problems, but created others. We've come a long way from Ruth, but mesh bodies show us what's possible. If LL had done this work, we might not have the complicated mesh body system we've got, the fragmentation of the clothing market, the lag/bloat that potentially results from mesh bodies, the increased learning curve, and the poor user experience of landing and seeing half invisible avatars with bits of their bodies and clothes in all the wrong places. Having a more attractive system avatar doesn't impede the ability to create for it. There would still be a market for skins, cosmetics, hair, clothing, Lolas, etc. and creators would fill it, as they've done for years.

 

Edited August 28, 2018 by Jupiter Firelyte

[Skell Dagger]

5 hours ago, Eirynne Sieyes said:

I will not be posting to this thread anymore.

What a shame you had to flounce. There was some interesting discussion after you picked up your petticoats and departed with your nose in the air. You might have learned something

[MoiraKathleen]

1 hour ago, Jupiter Firelyte said:

It's a big leap from 'fix this one thing' to 'remove all creative freedom'. I'm not sure how you landed on fascism, but let me assume that I didn't express myself well enough. 

I was not referring to content. The avatar is not user created. It's user enhanced. Mesh bodies have become something creators make, and that's fine, no issues with that. But the avatars were created by Linden Lab. The mesh bodies solved some problems, but created others. We've come a long way from Ruth, but mesh bodies show us what's possible. If LL had done this work, we might not have the complicated mesh body system we've got, the fragmentation of the clothing market, the lag/bloat that potentially results from mesh bodies, the increased learning curve, and the poor user experience of landing and seeing half invisible avatars with bits of their bodies and clothes in all the wrong places. Having a more attractive system avatar doesn't impede the ability to create for it. There would still be a market for skins, cosmetics, hair, clothing, Lolas, etc. and creators would fill it, as they've done for years.

 

I'm not sure that even if LL had made more attractive starter avatars, whether that would have prevented other creators from making mesh bodies, given the large number of, and the diversity of, mesh bodies currently on the market (unless LL did something like prohibit creators from making a mesh body).  

Given that there had been some trying to come together by creators for mesh clothing (with the standard sizing) I'm wondering why the creators didn't try to keep compatibility between the mesh bodies they were creating and the standard size clothing (or a new mesh body standard sizing).  It seems to me that the creators themselves have to take some credit for creating the fragmentation of the clothing market. 

[Fionalein]

5 hours ago, moirakathleen said:

It seems to me that the creators themselves have to take some credit for creating the fragmentation of the clothing market. 

I still wait to see a close to calssic avi mesh body... most creators have their own vision of beauty and that sadly includes budging bicepses, bigger hips, bigger asses and much  more... we cannot get it to fit. Everytime someone tells me a mesh body is true to classic I do the following procedure:

1. add mesh body
2. wear standard sizing shape
3. add standard sizing bikini bottom
4. look dissappointed

they get near classic, sure we can wear long coats and suits with our mesh bodies... but the rest is meh

 

Edited August 29, 2018 by Fionalein

[Phorumities]

45 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

I still wait to see a close to calssic avi mesh body... most creators have their own vision of beauty and that sadly includes budging bicepses, bigger hips, bigger asses and much  more... we cannot get it to fit. Everytime someone tells me a mesh body is true to classic I do the following procedure:

1. add mesh body
2. wear standard sizing shape
3. add standard sizing bikini bottom
4. look dissappointed

they get near classic, sure we can wear long coats and suits with our mesh bodies... but the rest is meh

 

you aren't trying, you can make a mesh body look almost identical to your original system shape, or at least i could.

and why are you even bothering with standard sizes? Fitmesh made those obsolete

 

Edited August 29, 2018 by Phorumities
added a line

[LittleMe Jewell]

1 hour ago, Fionalein said:

I still wait to see a close to calssic avi mesh body... most creators have their own vision of beauty and that sadly includes budging bicepses, bigger hips, bigger asses and much  more... we cannot get it to fit. Everytime someone tells me a mesh body is true to classic I do the following procedure:

1. add mesh body
2. wear standard sizing shape
3. add standard sizing bikini bottom
4. look dissappointed

they get near classic, sure we can wear long coats and suits with our mesh bodies... but the rest is meh

 

The mesh body adds to the overall size of the system shape that you wear.  So if you wear system shape of Standard Size Small and then a mesh body over that, your mesh body size will be bigger than Standard Size Small and thus those mesh items will not fit right.  You can edit the shape and further reduce it to maybe make the Standard Size Small fit, but it is usually just easier to wear mesh clothing specifically made for the mesh body you are wearing.  Granted, depending on the rigging, even then you might need to use alpha cuts, but it will typically be a better fit.

Edited August 29, 2018 by LittleMe Jewell

[Marianne Little]

1 hour ago, Phorumities said:

 

and why are you even bothering with standard sizes? Fitmesh made those obsolete

 

Very good question. Standard sizes is barely rigged at all compared to those rigged for bodies. At least in the tops, they don't follow breast edits at all. Yesterdays technology.

[Chic Aeon]

36 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

The mesh body adds to the overall size of the system shape that you wear.  So if you wear system shape of Standard Size Small and then a mesh body over that, your mesh body size will be bigger than Standard Size Small and thus those mesh items will not fit right.  You can edit the shape and further reduce it to maybe make the Standard Size Small fit, but it is usually just easier to wear mesh clothing specifically made for the mesh body you are wearing.  Granted, depending on the rigging, even then you might need to use alpha cuts, but it will typically be a better fit.

I understand what you are saying but when I switched to Maitreya I went from a standard size S to a XS on pretty much ALL standard size clothing.  Of course now that we have clothes MADE for the different bodies that doesn't figure in.

 

I did not change my shape

 

 

Edited August 29, 2018 by Chic Aeon

[LittleMe Jewell]

12 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

I understand what you are saying but when I switched to Maitreya I went from a standard size S to a XS on pretty much ALL standard size clothing.  Of course now that we have clothes MADE for the different bodies that doesn't figure in.

 

I did not change my shape

 

 

Yeah, that pretty much makes no sense.  Apparently you are just odd  

I went from a standard size small to between a small and medium, which is more what I'd expect to happen.

 

[Jupiter Firelyte]

1 hour ago, Phorumities said:

you aren't trying, you can make a mesh body look almost identical to your original system shape, or at least i could.

It depends. If your avatar is along the lines of what's popular in SL - the young, very tall, very slim fashion model with eyes half-closed and full lips - it's easier. 

There are people for whom the avatar is an extension of their "real" selves. They prefer their avatar to look like them. That might mean shorter, fatter, with bumpier curves, a flatter butt, etc. It's not impossible to achieve that with a mesh body, but it's more challenging not only because of the mesh bodies themselves, but also because what's made for them (e.g. skins, clothes) also leans towards young, flawless, and sexy.