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Are we afraid to talk about who creates low lag mesh bodies?


Eirynne Sieyes
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53 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Yeah, that pretty much makes no sense.  Apparently you are just odd  :P

I went from a standard size small to between a small and medium, which is more what I'd expect to happen.

 

Well I LIKE odd LOL.

Works for me.

 

 

 

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When I made my shape I didn't care anything about the so called "standard" sizes. What I did was that I took real female photo, put it on prim and set the size so that she was the height what I wanted my avatar to be. Then I put my avatar on its side and started tweaking my avatar so that it was as close as possible to the real woman. This is easy way to get the proportions right. If there is no reference when adjusting the shape it can go very wrong - unless one is an artist and knows intuitively how real human looks.

The avatar in the picture is classic (AKA system) avatar. When I bought mesh body and adjusted its shape I did the same with it as with system avatar.
With good real photo as a reference, adjusting avatar's body shape quite easy job to do.

2095817777_Avatarvsrealhuman.jpg.0c5491126deab63af6b8e32513fa4fd1.jpg

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I absolutely hated standard size mesh clothing. The difference between medium and large was ridiculous and the XS to smalls were all basically the same with very minimal differences, all of which were much too frail for my liking. The number one reason I jumped to a mesh body and rigged mesh clothing was so I could finally delete every last piece of standard size clothing I ever owned!!!! I'd leave SL before going back to such a standard. I feel that strongly about it.

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I always chuckled at the fact that there was pretty much always a Small, XS, and even XXS, but yet seldom anything bigger than Large, which really was not very large in the true scheme of thing (though a few creators did make XL).  It definitely highlighted the fact that so many of the females in SL were super skinny.

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34 minutes ago, Rhonda Huntress said:

This is my body work shop :)

Of interest (and some eyerolling) is that which I have highlighted below. Why does the female figure have to wear heels (albeit low ones) when the male figure wears no shoes at all? Given the art style, that looks like a bit of casual 1940s-50s sexism there. ¬¬

Nothing against you, Rhonda, for choosing that image; rather I'm eyerolling at the original artist. (Also, the male figure's side-on posture is bloody terrible. That's some seriously bad anterior pelvic tilt he's got going on!)

heels.jpg.4068c3ab66b2fe6255df068233490f52.jpg

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6 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Do you sell that thing?  If so, where? If not, then you should.

Anyone could make it.  If you want a copy, just ask and I'll pass it to you.

In use, scale the whole thing until the Y-axis size is the avatar height you want.  I have thought about scripting this to scale itself but so far I haven't had the wantto to do it.

[ETA]
I went ahead and dropped a generic resize script in them and edited it to tell you the height on the touch menu.

 

Edited by Rhonda Huntress
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6 hours ago, Rhonda Huntress said:

This is my body work shop :)

a61f901f4499f047a3d4d21638071254.jpg

The grid is "head size" scale.

Earlier I used that same female image made by an artist. Somehow I didn't quite like the artist's idea about the human body. So I started to use real female photo instead, just to be sure that I get the proportions on the avatar as close as possible with real human.

Naturally the body proportions of real humans have some variations. So I browsed through a lot of photos and then I selected the one which I liked the most.
 

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9 hours ago, Blush Bravin said:

I absolutely hated standard size mesh clothing. The difference between medium and large was ridiculous and the XS to smalls were all basically the same with very minimal differences, all of which were much too frail for my liking. The number one reason I jumped to a mesh body and rigged mesh clothing was so I could finally delete every last piece of standard size clothing I ever owned!!!! I'd leave SL before going back to such a standard. I feel that strongly about it.

I still have several standard size articles of clothing. They managed to fit my regular non standard size system body, and lo and behold they still fit my mesh body when i had finished adjusting the sliders to recreate the dimensions of my system body in mesh.

 

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On 8/28/2018 at 9:21 AM, Ceka Cianci said:

SL has always had a system recommended requirements and a minimum requirements.. So SL was not always intended for everyone..just those that meet the requirements..

might be able to run the client .. as in technically run, but you're going to have a miserable time.

https://secondlife.com/support/system-requirements/

SL on a Pentium 4 or ATOM with 1GB of ram total .. yeah, good luck with that.

 

On 8/28/2018 at 12:40 PM, Ceka Cianci said:

I think this one and the other thread they made are the only ones I've been in..

The only reason I chimed in is because they made it sound like it's worse now than before,which it's not..

It is demonstrably worse.

Turning your own viewer down to low & disabling advanced lighting as if to prove a point is quite literally grasping the wrong end of the stick, showing people the clean end and commenting on how good a handle the sponge makes.

Edited by CoffeeDujour
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7 hours ago, CoffeeDujour said:

might be able to run the client .. as in technically run, but you're going to have a miserable time.

https://secondlife.com/support/system-requirements/

SL on a Pentium 4 or ATOM with 1GB of ram total .. yeah, good luck with that.

 

It is demonstrably worse.

Turning your own viewer down to low & disabling advanced lighting as if to prove a point is quite literally grasping the wrong end of the stick, showing people the clean end and commenting on how good a handle the sponge makes.

Funny how long it used to take to rez a sim then compared to now..let alone myself..heck many times i remember not being able to rezz myself let alone anyone else..

It's not like I took a quess at what i was saying..I happend to have been there as well as the rest of you.

So,Im gonna disagree about it being worse now.

I've only had my good computer for the past year..

 

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Eirynne Sieyes:

I know you said that you would no longer be posting in this thread, but perhaps you are still reading some of the replies...

On 8/28/2018 at 12:01 PM, ChinRey said:

I do agree with the OP on principle - at least to some degree.

But we do not at the moment have any reasonably good way to measure fitmesh lag and that means we can not - and should not try to - list who are the good and who are the bad ones. It is possible that project Arctan will fix that but even if it does, it'll probably still be many motnhs before it's launched.

This reply is probably the most accurate, insightful and on-point you have received.  Please think about it and consider taking it to heart. She is basically saying that it would irresponsible to make a list of the worst offenders and call them out, because we currently have no OBJECTIVE way to determine which mesh bodies cause the most "Lag." It's just not a fair way of doing things.

 

On 8/28/2018 at 8:52 AM, Eirynne Sieyes said:

Try going in on low. Most will be jelly. Ask people who you can see what they are wearing. Very interesting...

On 8/28/2018 at 8:58 AM, Eirynne Sieyes said:

So you can see what meshes are visible in low, the ones who won't lag you. Then you can switch back. Try it. It's a very interesting experiment.

This method of assessment you are proposing is very SUBJECTIVE.  Different people will have a different experiences on the low setting for all the reasons many have already stated. I know it seems like "common sense" approach, but it really is just your experience and not necessarily indicative of what is really going on.

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What i can say to this type of conversation; -is that a couple years ago, i was still using Cable Ethernet connection speeds at a very basic price package, and on a Gaming PC with a decent network card, i usually always ran into an array of loading/texture/sim issues.

Fast-forward to today, I've upgraded to 250mb Fiber internet on the very same Gaming PC, and I've seen tremendous differences (improvements) overall since I've returned to Second Life.

I don't know how much of what i just typed can be extrapolated as useful or constructive, but for me personal, my bottleneck all these years appeared to primarily exist inside my internet connection speeds.  

Edited by Neo Kaligawa
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The difference between past problems and current problems is different.

SL is exceptionally CPU dependent, so much so that if you build a brand new PC with high end graphics card .. the graphics card will barely break a sweat while SL chugs running one of your CPU cores maxed out. The graphics load SL presents is bottle-necked by your processor, and that in turn bottle-necks literally everything else the viewer does.

CPU cores are not getting faster, We are instead getting systems with many cores side by side. This does not benefit us in the slightest.

In effect, we have hit a hard limit on performance with the current SL architecture.

Changing the way SL works to scale over multiple cores would be such a major undertaking as to be an entirely new beast. 

This is one (of many) design limitations SL suffers from and why LL decided to go make Sansar. 

 

High poly mesh avatars & clothing are killing us.

 

On 8/30/2018 at 6:17 AM, Ceka Cianci said:

I've only had my good computer for the past year..

Is a bit like saying you don't think pot holes are a problem anymore since you bought a new truck. What's everyone upset about.

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4 hours ago, CoffeeDujour said:

Is a bit like saying you don't think pot holes are a problem anymore since you bought a new truck. What's everyone upset about.

No,It's saying this..I have been on the same computer for my whole time in SL,feeling all the bumps in the road the whole time, but the past year.. My whole time was spent on A Dell Dimension 4700 all BUT the last year..

In other words I have a very good idea of how SL felt for me the whole way, since 2006 until last year 2017..I'm not that old yet to be forgetting it and don't really wear rose colored glasses about my SL..

Lag was just something that was always a part of my SL..I knew it all too well ,when it was good and when it was bad..The only time SL hasn't been one trouble shoot after another was the past year..

There is no way I was doing more trouble shooting in recent years like i was doing the years before then. That I know for a fact..

GOL Elements was one big rez the whole time it was around, with people not rezzing for hours if at all..I was there for like four years living in lag central..

Yet I could go to a club like Rez, that is surrounded by a huge mall, packed club and mesh bodies on the dance floor, using my same old computer I used at GOL Elements. Everyone rezzed and in way less time..

 

So when I say, I've only had my new computer since this past year ,it means I didn't just get here this year..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, CoffeeDujour said:

High poly mesh avatars & clothing are killing us.

 

958DCA64-CF9E-4943-8262-6CDA4EA1C337.jpeg*Edit* Oops sorry coffee, I thought someone else said it. Repeating something I state often: I made sure to have my last PC built with SSD, so no disk bottleneck. We don’t always know which exact aspect of complainer’s system is causing them grief. I think my PC is 7-8 years old now, and I have absolutely no problem with SL. I find your statement a bit inflammatory, and yes I read your thread on Mesh LOD.

Edited by Love Zhaoying
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7 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

*Edit* Oops sorry coffee, I thought someone else said it. Repeating something I state often: I made sure to have my last PC built with SSD, so no disk bottleneck. We don’t always know which exact aspect of complainer’s system is causing them grief. I think my PC is 7-8 years old now, and I have absolutely no problem with SL. I find your statement a bit inflammatory, and yes I read your thread on Mesh LOD.

From my vantage point, the writing is on the wall. There are parts of the viewers rendering we can hope to improve, texture use and VRAM being a big one, and parts we have no hope of improving short of dumping the entire pipeline and rebuilding it with vulkan from scratch ... with no certainty of improvement (skipping over the minor point that there probably isn't a single person in the TPV community with the experience/skills/time to do it).

We're out of fancy tricks, the cards have been dealt, we've been fiddling with the order and design for years but no amount of shuffling is going to change this.

If you're not personally feeling the pinch then you're simply fortunate enough to be above water, but the tide is rising and we're all seeing the low end go under, and while they don't bring high power gaming computers to the party, they do make up the bulk of the user base and economy.

Keep in mind, an underpowered computer isn't necessarily an old computer, it could easily be a brand new laptop that sacrifices raw processor speed for battery life or form factor (thinner = less cooling = lower sustainable top speed ... Apple have been getting flack for their throttled mac pros, but this problem has been common in PC circles for years, only no one cares how badly a Dell performs due to poor design).

The load is going though the roof and from the perspective of the viewer, hardware has been essentially static for years.

Poly count matters.

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8 minutes ago, CoffeeDujour said:

From my vantage point, the writing is on the wall. There are parts of the viewers rendering we can hope to improve, texture use and VRAM being a big one, and parts we have no hope of improving short of dumping the entire pipeline and rebuilding it with vulkan from scratch ... with no certainty of improvement (skipping over the minor point that there probably isn't a single person in the TPV community with the experience/skills/time to do it).

We're out of fancy tricks, the cards have been dealt, we've been fiddling with the order and design for years but no amount of shuffling is going to change this.

If you're not personally feeling the pinch then you're simply fortunate enough to be above water, but the tide is rising and we're all seeing the low end go under, and while they don't bring high power gaming computers to the party, they do make up the bulk of the user base and economy.

Keep in mind, an underpowered computer isn't necessarily an old computer, it could easily be a brand new laptop that sacrifices raw processor speed for battery life or form factor (thinner = less cooling = lower sustainable top speed ... Apple have been getting flack for their throttled mac pros, but this problem has been common in PC circles for years, only no one cares how badly a Dell performs due to poor design).

The load is going though the roof and from the perspective of the viewer, hardware has been essentially static for years.

Poly count matters.

Will have to post my spec sometime. I’m blessed with good internet in addition to SSD, but now my “custom built” “gaming PC” is out of date. Mayyybe I saw lag when recently shopping for my mesh avatars, or definitely massive lag when GYC was packed (due to me making L$200k donation to ROFL ball to cause chaos). 

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Ok, here it is. Just checked and have 45 FPS on my home mainland region right now. Note how old my CPU and graphics card are.

Second Life Project BakesOnMesh 5.1.7.518013 (64bit)
Release Notes

[redacted location]

CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-2600K CPU @ 3.40GHz (3410.03 MHz)
Memory: 32720 MB
OS Version: Microsoft Windows 10 64-bit (Build 17134)
Graphics Card Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation
Graphics Card: GeForce GTX 560/PCIe/SSE2

Windows Graphics Driver Version: 23.21.13.8813
OpenGL Version: 4.6.0 NVIDIA 388.13

Window size: 1920x1017
Font Size Adjustment: 96pt
UI Scaling: 1
Draw distance: 128m
Bandwidth: 10000kbit/s
LOD factor: 1.125
Render quality: 5 / 7
Advanced Lighting Model: Enabled
Texture memory: 512MB
VFS (cache) creation time: September 01 2018 12:10:45

J2C Decoder Version: KDU v7.10.4
Audio Driver Version: FMOD Ex 4.44.64
Dullahan: 1.1.1080 / CEF: 3.3325.1750.gaabe4c4 / Chromium: 65.0.3325.146
LibVLC Version: 2.2.8
Voice Server Version: Not Connected
Packets Lost: 43/35,455 (0.1%)
September 01 2018 12:22:59

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But how many avatars do you see on screen and are they mesh bodied & dressed? With your hardware being very close to one of my workstations (same CPU), I'm willing to bet it's only your own .. two tops.

I can see why you're thinking there  is lots of headroom, a 7 year old CPU has to be bordering on obsolete, right?

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6 minutes ago, CoffeeDujour said:

But how many avatars do you see on screen and are they mesh bodied & dressed? With your hardware being very close to one of my workstations (same CPU), I'm willing to bet it's only your own .. two tops.

I can see why you're thinking there  is lots of headroom, a 7 year old CPU has to be bordering on obsolete, right?

Nope, I go places where everyone is Mesh and they all show ok. Care to suggest a place for me to test? I’ve already admitted places where Mesh bodies are sold are one of the only laggy places, but I don’t remember anyone being undressed. Prove me wrong, and I’ll upgrade! 

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