Is non-mesh doomed to extinction?

[TaiVelikova]

I've seen several articles about mesh versus non-mesh avatars. My question is, do you think that eventually everyone will have a mesh avatar?  Is mesh like the Borg, certain to assimilate you in the long run?  Or do you suppose there will always be a group of people that use the non-mesh style?  I have both, but it is much easier to use the older style than fuss with the mesh and get everything right.  If I don't learn to use the mesh, will that doom my social life?  

[Lisa006 Baxton]

I honestly believe you will always have the folks that don't believe in keeping up with the latest and greatest and will forever enjoy their non-mesh avatar that they were born with. As you stated the non-mesh avatars are less hassle and there are still tons of non-mesh clothing option on the marketplace. Plus the many that have been around forever may have tons of clothing pieces that are not mesh compatible and do not want to invest in a whole new wardrobe. Unfortunately not moving over to mesh and being the sore eye in a crowd could possibly get you de-rendered by the many beautiful mesh avatars and doom your social life lol 

Honestly it took me forever to move over to mesh, until my tenants started making smart remarks on how outdated i looked lol. Once I updated to mesh, there was/is no turning back for me. At first it was complicated and time consuming to get everything just right but now I am a pro and can't imagine going back to an SL without my sexy mesh bod!

Edited March 19, 2017 by Lisa006 Baxton

[KarenMichelle Lane]

As lovely as the [new] generation 2 mesh avatars are,  the system "generation 1 mesh" avatars are still hanging about and I for one love my System Mesh Avatar. I've read no comments from Linden Lab staring that the old System Mesh Avatars are being eliminated nor do I think they can be realistically. They are a part of the core code of the servers and the viewers.

Yes we are all actually mesh [generation 1 or generation 2] just that some of the new exoskeleton features seem to be tied to the [new] generation 2 mesh avatar skeleton structures.

Because I have full control over my shape which I designed myself, I keep variations of her about so I can wear the latest new rigged-mesh fashions designed for specific generation 2 mesh avatars for sale in the Market Place. Mind you. with mesh clothing versus system layer clothing the physics features, whereby some of our "soft" body parts can move semi-realistically, needs to be turned off when wearing mesh & rigged-mesh clothing. This prevents embarrassing peek through. Additionally, you do have to size up your shape to match the mesh size you choose to wear to prevent the twilight zone gap at the fabric/skin edge when also wearing the included Alpha Body Eraser.

I still get complements about my AVI and her fashion styles being able to mix and match clothing items from both worlds into a fun layering and new to the eye fashion statement .You'll be able to do this as well with some experience.

Fear not.

Edited March 19, 2017 by KarenMichelle Lane

[JezzebellWest]

I think that the system mesh avatars will forever be a thing. That is inevitable. I still enjoy them at times, but I've since updated to my new mesh self, and I don't see me going back now.

It is hard to adjust at first, and I honestly question how I got to where I am. But I love my sexy mesh. I have invested in two mesh bodies, three heads, and I have slink hands and feet just in case, haha. 

I feel that the system avatars will still be around, but most are updating to mesh to save their social rep, as you put it. 

[Bobbie Faulds]

When I run into a new female resident, the only thing I would suggest a female avi purchase would be Slink feet. There are several reasons. First and foremost, the default feet are UGLY....paddles with line on them. Secondly, Slink has pretty much become the standard for shoes so, if you want to be able to wear shoes and you're a female, you need High and Flat at the very least. Flat for the beach and when you want to be barefoot, and high since that seems to be the most popular shoe height. The feet are also a good way to get into the flow of things and get used to appliers and some of the basics of mesh before plunging into full on mesh bodies and heads.

I encourage any new residents to wait at least 4 weeks before investing in a mesh body so they can concentrate on the basics of SL since SL does have a steep learning curve. 

[Marianne Little]

20 minutes ago, Bobbie Faulds said:

When I run into a new female resident, the only thing I would suggest a female avi purchase would be Slink feet. There are several reasons. First and foremost, the default feet are UGLY....paddles with line on them. Secondly, Slink has pretty much become the standard for shoes so, if you want to be able to wear shoes and you're a female, you need High and Flat at the very least. Flat for the beach and when you want to be barefoot, and high since that seems to be the most popular shoe height. The feet are also a good way to get into the flow of things and get used to appliers and some of the basics of mesh before plunging into full on mesh bodies and heads.

I encourage any new residents to wait at least 4 weeks before investing in a mesh body so they can concentrate on the basics of SL since SL does have a steep learning curve. 

Can agree to all you said. Especially about Slink feet and that it is the standard of shoes being made. New makers of bodies has to make their feet exact the same as Slink, or make a leg cut that makes it possible to wear the body with Slink feet.

There is the downside of mesh bodies and body parts, there is less and less things being made for the default avatar. It was a longer thread over on another forum about how they could barely find mesh outfits in standard sizing in the "We love Roleplay" event.

I can also see a trend in one body to rule them all, more and more content is being made for one female body. This forcing the users of the other bodies to switch to the "popular" choice, try to convince clothing makers to make content for their body, or just settle for the outfits that they can get.

I think there is little money to be made for new designers in making system clothes. It is already so many quite nice freebies for the default body. Mesh in standard sizes will hang in for a while, but designers don't have vast resources of time, they will look at what sells most in stores and at events. They may find out that loosing the few sales of standard sizing is worth it to save time, so they can concentrate of one line and create more new for that system.

But it is also lots of mesh kits sold cheap, so designers will buy mesh models and re-texture them for sale. There will be new stuff to get, but maybe not original mesh.

Male avatars on the other hand, so much of male clothing is sold only in standard sizes, even if it is advertised to "made for yyy body". I can't tell you how many times I dressed a male alt, just to find that claim bogus. Where I can wear clothes advertised to fit a female body system without having to edit alphas in 99% of the time, with male clothes advertised to fit for "yyy" body, I must tinker with the alpha layers almost all the time.

I think this is because the male bodies is not worn by that many avatars, and so there is not in the designers interest to make special content for them. Designers know male avatars have to take what they make, because male clothing is a small part of the clothing market. One exception here, the very muscled body that can't take standard clothing. It still has a noticeable part of the clothing and accessories market, because it is so popular with the males who want to look big. It is enough demand for special made clothing for it to make it worth the time.

[Syo Emerald]

8 hours ago, TaiVelikova said:

I've seen several articles about mesh versus non-mesh avatars. My question is, do you think that eventually everyone will have a mesh avatar?  Is mesh like the Borg, certain to assimilate you in the long run?  Or do you suppose there will always be a group of people that use the non-mesh style?  I have both, but it is much easier to use the older style than fuss with the mesh and get everything right.  If I don't learn to use the mesh, will that doom my social life?  

No, mesh is not like the Borg. The Borg don't ask, if you want to join them or not. They do not give you a choice, but forcefully assimilate you into their hivemind. Nobody ever will force you into wearing mesh clothes or using mesh avatar parts and there is no wave of elimination of older content, so what you got till this point will not be culled by a fashion police. And from my social experiance, there are still plenty of people around, who did not go full mesh. Either, because they are not motivated enough to learn how to use mesh, or they fear their own lack of knowledge and hesitate to put themself into a new "newbie" feeling or they can't or don't want to spend that much money. Because lets face it: Mayor mesh body parts cost a lot at once. Others are too nostalgig to let go off clothes they brought in 2009 and then you have the group of people who are against mesh for idiology reasons.

So no, you will never be alone. And you won't be socially isolated.

The only thing that could become a little complicated in the long run are big shopping trips and shopping events. Currently, there are some creators who focus on making mesh clothes with mesh bodies in mind and do not include a version designed for system avatars.

[Penny Patton]

Before mesh bodies were a thing you could walk into any store and buy any clothes off the rack and, with a little manual adjustment you could have made it fit. The problem with mesh bodies is that there are no standards. So, now if you want to shop for clothes, you're typically limited to only those clothes made specifically for the body you're using.

Add to that, most mesh bodies are no-mod, severely limiting the amount you can personalize your own avatar if you're using one of them. (And yes, I know you can do some personalizing with appliers and HUD options, but that only ever scratches the surface of what someone with modding skills can do with a modifiable body.)

For these reasons I think the classic avatar will remain around for the foreseeable future despite the benefits of mesh.

[George39]

Hallo everybody!

[HarrisonMcKenzie]

23 hours ago, TaiVelikova said:

I've seen several articles about mesh versus non-mesh avatars. My question is, do you think that eventually everyone will have a mesh avatar?  Is mesh like the Borg, certain to assimilate you in the long run?  Or do you suppose there will always be a group of people that use the non-mesh style?  I have both, but it is much easier to use the older style than fuss with the mesh and get everything right.  If I don't learn to use the mesh, will that doom my social life?  

On a technical level, system avatars and clothes will always be there. On a practical level, system clothes died ages ago. They look awful, just like more system avatars.

It's worth noting that there is no "learn how to use mesh." You put it and the accompanying alpha on. If you have to learn how to do that, you're doing something wrong. Now, a poorly made mesh avatar can be a problem because it's poorly made. And I'm not sure how prevalent the problem is, but many avatar makers seem to not want to share offline files for designers to build off of. This makes it impossible to size things properly, and thus means things won't fit even the avatar they are meant to fit. If people stopped trying to have an exclusive market and actually worked with clothing designers, things would go a lot better.

[JamieThunder]

A better comparison would be Europeans assimilating Native peoples

[Morwen Blaisdale]

16 hours ago, Penny Patton said:

Before mesh bodies were a thing you could walk into any store and buy any clothes off the rack and, with a little manual adjustment you could have made it fit. The problem with mesh bodies is that there are no standards. So, now if you want to shop for clothes, you're typically limited to only those clothes made specifically for the body you're using.

Add to that, most mesh bodies are no-mod, severely limiting the amount you can personalize your own avatar if you're using one of them. (And yes, I know you can do some personalizing with appliers and HUD options, but that only ever scratches the surface of what someone with modding skills can do with a modifiable body.)

For these reasons I think the classic avatar will remain around for the foreseeable future despite the benefits of mesh.

I am hoping that mesh ultimately is as (or more) modifiable as the original avatars back when I joined up.

 

[Conifer Dada]

Mesh bodies might have brought better detailing but they've done nothing to improve peoples' sense of scale or proportions in SL!

[Love Zhaoying]

The peer pressure for mesh is getting ridiculous. Even in the furry community. I prefer my old avatars, more to choose from and more easily customizable.

[Dalah]

Hello to all

I still like my system AVI very much, after all .. I worked on perfecting every aspect of the shape and expression for a long time. Two years ago I began wearing Mesh bodies, Belleza venus and shortly after that Maitreya Lara. I like them both, they serve a purpose - especially at the beach  . I never switched to the Mesh Heads, they just don't look right to me, LOL . However I am truly dissatisfied with the inability to apply 2 of my older skins to the mesh bodies and the creators (Belleza and Pulse) have either discontinued and/or are no longer selling the skin. Many creators don't update their older skins to work with Mesh bodies and this makes it difficult to find just the right RGB color codes for matching skin [with the slider] as unique and detailed as Pulse skin. -

I agree with those who have pointed out the usefulness of slink hands and feet. If you have pretty hands and feet and have applied your skin tattoo over the seem how lovely it is with your System Avatar! And if you fudge a little with the color codes on hands/feet it is hardly noticeable. Add a lovely bracelet and wristwatch - voila.

You can find me still looking at all types of System clothes because of the wonderful Mesh attachments which are so often included in their very affordable outfits. Often I will spend a few  Lindens just to have the attachments advertised with the outfit. So, yes .. I think it is quite acceptable to run around SL with a System Avatar wearing a nice skin, Mesh hands/feet, lovely new hair, cute Mesh eyes and Mesh clothing designed to be worn with your System AVI and never feel out of place.

-Dalah

Edited March 20, 2017 by Dalah
grammar

[Syo Emerald]

4 hours ago, Conifer Dada said:

Mesh bodies might have brought better detailing but they've done nothing to improve peoples' sense of scale or proportions in SL!

They wouldn't have any tool to do that. A sense for scaling is tied to the camera perspective of the viewer. And proportions...well, I strongly believe many "mis-proportioned" avatars are controlled by people who truely think their avatar looks beautiful that way.

[Annika Velde]

I think its safe to say that there are still quite a bit of non mesh users. Personally, I could never go back to the system avi's. They're too rough in my opinion. Mesh bodies are smooth and a lot of creators make things for the maitreya, so I chose well. With bento heads being made, I feel like customization and individuality of returned to SL. Before all mesh heads kinda looked the same to me. 

As far as clothing goes, I enjoy the more realistic looking clothes that don't look like body paint. Again, this is just my opinion. 

I think its to each their own though. Non mesh will never be extinct as long as there are content creators in SL. Maybe endangered, but not extinct.

[Marigold Devin]

On 3/19/2017 at 0:49 AM, TaiVelikova said:

I've seen several articles about mesh versus non-mesh avatars. My question is, do you think that eventually everyone will have a mesh avatar?  Is mesh like the Borg, certain to assimilate you in the long run?  Or do you suppose there will always be a group of people that use the non-mesh style?  I have both, but it is much easier to use the older style than fuss with the mesh and get everything right.  If I don't learn to use the mesh, will that doom my social life?  

Supply and demand usually dictates whether something disappears altogether, in real life, in Second Life. Unless the "town planners" decide to remove something altogether, in spite of some dinosaurs (like myself) protesting to save something.

I don't think your social life is doomed because you prefer the older style. Only the shallow people would judge you entirely on being pre-mesh. 

[Conifer Dada]

4 hours ago, Syo Emerald said:

They wouldn't have any tool to do that. A sense for scaling is tied to the camera perspective of the viewer. And proportions...well, I strongly believe many "mis-proportioned" avatars are controlled by people who truely think their avatar looks beautiful that way.

People can get a sense of scale from their given avatar height in 'shape' settings or by making a prim of the desired height and measuring themselves against it.  There's a slight inconsistency between the two, I know, but they're close enough to give an idea.  If people want to be 8 feet tall in SL I have no problem with that, it's up to them. But I suspect that it's always been the case in SL that some people just want their avatar to look big on their screen without any thought on how 'big' it really is because it's easier than playing with camera angles etc. 

[Syo Emerald]

3 minutes ago, Conifer Dada said:

People can get a sense of scale from their given avatar height in 'shape' settings or by making a prim of the desired height and measuring themselves against it.  There's a slight inconsistency between the two, I know, but they're close enough to give an idea.  If people want to be 8 feet tall in SL I have no problem with that, it's up to them. But I suspect that it's always been the case in SL that some people just want their avatar to look big on their screen without any thought on how 'big' it really is because it's easier than playing with camera angles etc. 

Nobody pays attention to what the viewer says about height or how many cubes of primes you can stack up next to your avatar. What matters is viewing perspective and relation. Because of the perspective, people do not realize, they are too big. Also I remember faintly, that the starter avatars back in the day were also more optimized to that viewing angle, rather than realistic messurements. People started building for that perspective. Thats why (especially old) furniture and rooms are so big. And nobody wants to look like a dwarf next to their kitchen counter.

The situation now is actually better than it was back then. Avatars overall have scaled down a little bit, since mesh became popular.

[Rhonda Huntress]

24 minutes ago, Syo Emerald said:

Nobody pays attention to what the viewer says about height

I must be nobody.

hmmm

As the old saying goes, Nobody's perfect.

 

[ETA]

Syo, you need 4 more likes ..

ok, 3 more now.

Edited March 20, 2017 by Rhonda Huntress

[Bobbie Faulds]

On 3/19/2017 at 9:36 AM, Penny Patton said:

Before mesh bodies were a thing you could walk into any store and buy any clothes off the rack and, with a little manual adjustment you could have made it fit. The problem with mesh bodies is that there are no standards. So, now if you want to shop for clothes, you're typically limited to only those clothes made specifically for the body you're using.

Add to that, most mesh bodies are no-mod, severely limiting the amount you can personalize your own avatar if you're using one of them. (And yes, I know you can do some personalizing with appliers and HUD options, but that only ever scratches the surface of what someone with modding skills can do with a modifiable body.)

For these reasons I think the classic avatar will remain around for the foreseeable future despite the benefits of mesh.

Most mesh is fitmesh so is rigged to the SL skeleton. So, they do respond to most of the sliders just like the SL default body does. I have both Tonic bodies, both Slink, Belleza and Maitreya. My current preference is the Tonic Fine. I don't have a serious problem getting clothes to fit, whether they be specific body clothes or standard sizes. In fact, for some clothes that usually use standard sizes or only one other,

I make a shape to wear under my body for those clothes. I actually did the same for the default because these particular designers placed the fit for the tush and the breasts in odd places and I didn't feel like redoing my avi every time I wore those clothes. 

The differences I've noticed between the bodies are length from the breast line to the shoulder, shoulder width/shape, breast shape, tush shape and calf shape.

[Penny Patton]

1 hour ago, Bobbie Faulds said:

Most mesh is fitmesh so is rigged to the SL skeleton. So, they do respond to most of the sliders just like the SL default body does. I have both Tonic bodies, both Slink, Belleza and Maitreya. My current preference is the Tonic Fine. I don't have a serious problem getting clothes to fit, whether they be specific body clothes or standard sizes. In fact, for some clothes that usually use standard sizes or only one other,

I make a shape to wear under my body for those clothes. I actually did the same for the default because these particular designers placed the fit for the tush and the breasts in odd places and I didn't feel like redoing my avi every time I wore those clothes. 

The differences I've noticed between the bodies are length from the breast line to the shoulder, shoulder width/shape, breast shape, tush shape and calf shape.

If I'm understanding you correctly, the difference is that back in the old days you would adjust the outfit to fit your personal shape.

These days you have to give up any sort of personal shape to squeeze your body into the clothes.

That's a huge difference and I think the latter is more offputting for most people. People want to personalize their avatar, make it their own. People get attached to their shapes. It's a part of who they are. Forcing them to change it to wear a dress or a shirt or a pair of shoes will always make people unhappy. That's one of the reasons people hated the initial implementation of mesh and pestered LL to do it again.

Of course I'm generalizing, some people are fine changing their shapes for clothes. But I do think the majority favour the clothes fitting them, not the other way around.

[Rhonda Huntress]

1 hour ago, Penny Patton said:

These days you have to give up any sort of personal shape to squeeze your body into the clothes.

I edit my shape much less now with mesh clothes.  The clothes bend to fit me; not the other way around.  I only change my shape when I want to actually change my shape.  Then when I do, all my clothes fit the new shape.  It is very convenient now, that's for sure.

[Chase01]

I couldn't agree more Penny! I love being able to purchase clothing that will fit the shape I have created. The old system didn't make for a great out of the box experience. Now we realize just how valuable that is because there is so much more diversity in shapes as a result of that change. I also agree with Harrison when he said " On a technical level, system avatars and clothes will always be there. On a practical level, system clothes died ages ago." ... I don't see everyone using a mesh avatar anytime soon but we're definitely headed in that direction. In the future they may just be more of a novelty thing more then anything else.