Is Lindenlab choosing a doomed path for SL ? Tell us if the EEP and PBR introduction changed the way you play SL

[Ceka Cianci]

5 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

EEEK.

Dahling, I feel your pain.

Try a different EEP! (The new midday one isn't terrible.)

I fixed it just now.. hehehe

I forgot we have two layers in the 4.0 Lelutka hud for lipstick now.. hehehe

Edited June 22 by Ceka Cianci

[Love Zhaoying]

4 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

8 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

he biggest problem I'm having after trying the new FS viewer is,

My favorite applier lipstick is too Glossy!! \o/

!quit

EEEK.

Dahling, I feel your pain.

Try a different EEP! (The new midday one isn't terrible.)

I had to change a materials setting..(but this was for my body, I think).

[Rowan Amore]

7 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

The biggest problem I'm having after trying the new FS viewer is,

My favorite applier lipstick is too Glossy!! \o/

!quit

Check out some of Ives older lip colors as some include the BoM option.  I wish they had continued offer those and not just appliers.  You won't get the glow/shine with the BoM.  My go to right now is their Drama lipgloss.

[Cristiano Midnight]

7 hours ago, Sid Nagy said:

One thing is for sure, on the SLB sims that hold LL builds one can see how easily one can overdue with PBR effects.
With region settings the builds are .... eh.... overdone?
Ugly? 
Nasty?
Well. let's be friendly and I'll say, it's not my style. 
PBR possibilities should be used way more sparsely and subtle IMHO.

You will see people go nuts with it at first to see all that can be done. PBR materials are overkill for some things, and for others, allow them to look more realistic. I have seen some very cool materials done with it, and some awful ones - much like pretty much everything in SL. Some people will slap mirrors on everything too - the novelty of mirrors wear off pretty quickly.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

Check out some of Ives older lip colors as some include the BoM option.  I wish they had continued offer those and not just appliers.  You won't get the glow/shine with the BoM.  My go to right now is their Drama lipgloss.

How do I kiss them all at the same time?

[Arielle Popstar]

7 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Stated delicately: If we dumb it down TOO much, it will look..dumb.

(Like a kid's drawing in MS Paint, similar to some things I've seen in PrimFeed posts.)

Remember the dumbed down world you initially joined? I joined initially because I was able to create my own skybox with a week of joining up. It was pretty rough admittedly but it progressed because I was able to learn more inworld without having to take a 6 month to year long break to learn blender.

[Cristiano Midnight]

As  far as the original question, yes EEP and PBR both changed SL to a degree for me, especially PBR. EEP being inventory items that you can buy collections of on the marketplace has allowed me to have some fantastic custom EEP settings for my pictures, which as a photographer, I appreciate. PBR materials have excited me as a creator again - I love making materials in Substance Painter and Materialize and seeing their effect in SL. I appreciate the changes. YMMV.

[Flea Yatsenko]

12 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I think this is somewhat true, although arguably the introduction of mesh, which can't be built (at least easily) in-world really marked the end of creative building as a major component for most of the SL experience.

The primary new hurdle that this adds is creating additional maps for PBR. Not everyone uses Blender and/or Substance Painter. But creating normal and spectral maps for the old system also involved moving outside of Photoshop -- and there are some cheap or even free tools available online.

I've got a really good feeling a lot of these spec/norm materials look terrible in PBR because the spec/norm was created with one of those free tools that generates them from a regular diffuse texture. Generating PBR from diffuse/spec/norm is a very difficult thing to do even if the spec/norm was created properly, let alone with LL's alpha channel tricks that are supposed to be in the spec/norm maps.

Just because it's physically based doesn't mean it's accurate. Nothing is stopping creators from going "SHINY GOOD!!" and setting roughness to be super shiny. I think that's going to be a big problem for PBR when it starts out.

[Ceka Cianci]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

Check out some of Ives older lip colors as some include the BoM option.  I wish they had continued offer those and not just appliers.  You won't get the glow/shine with the BoM.  My go to right now is their Drama lipgloss.

I use their Hela version a lot..

The one I was having a problem with was their, Baddest Gloss version.. But the Lelutka hud fixes it with their second layer they added..

I just updated to 4.0 last night , so I'm just now exploring the hud..

I just thought it would sound silly if I quit for something silly like that.. hehehe

 

[animats]

9 hours ago, RicDelMoro said:

I hated all these arrogant changes that force us to buy stronger computers. With the PBR it is worse, it puts more strain on the machine and socialization is becoming unfeasible.

The basic situation now is pretty simple. Now you need a reasonably good GPU.

I have two desktop machines side by side. One has an NVidia 640 2GB, a GPU from 2012 that now costs about US$50. The other has an NVidia 3070, a GPU from 2020 that costs about US$500.

With Firestorm 6.x, both were acceptable for running SL. The low-end machine could get about 18 FPS in New Babbage, with about 75% GPU utilization. So, as usual, the viewer was limited by main-thread CPU speed.

On the low end machine, frame rate drops to 15FPS with Firestorm 7.x. Nothing seems to be able to get it above that speed. "Auto-tuning" doesn't help. GPU utilization is 100%.

With Firestorm 6.x on the high-end machine, FPS is still only 18 in New Babbage. GPU utilization is 39%.

On the high-end machine, though, frame rate goes up to 138 FPS. GPU utilization is at 87%. If I turn on every rendering feature, frame rate is 80 FPS in the same place.

So, at last, having a good GPU improves SL quality substantially.

This is going to be a problem for laptops with "integrated graphics". Many of them just don't have enough GPU engine, and you can't upgrade.

What to get now? The cheapest NVidia GPU of a current generation is the GeForce RTX 3050 8GB, for about US$200.

[Prokofy Neva]

9 hours ago, RicDelMoro said:

My experience with EEP : I made some very simple skies and I use them everywhere I go. With PBR I try to deactivate the maximum of features as possible.
I hated all these arrogant changes that force us to buy stronger computers. With the PBR it is worse, it puts more strain on the machine and socialization is becoming unfeasible.
Users who like simple things like driving and doing some roleplaying in door don't care at all about these "improvements" that LL introduced.
If you're the type of guy who goes out to buy a new computer every time Lindelab's mood changes, congratulations, but not me, I'm a normal person who plays just for fun and I have thousands of other leisure options on the Web.
As a result of these beautiful news,my gameplay has deteriorated,caused an effect opposite to that desired by LL. It's sad to say, but currently I avoid places with more people and very complex landscapes, I've been playing in a kind of "survival mode". I know if I step outside my box my PC will overheat or crash. And the time I spend online in SL has decreased. I keep logging into SL out of sheer stubbornness, even though my rational side is saying: "go do something else"...This is just my opinion, if you are happy with all these changes tell us here.
 

Yes, you've described the situation beautifully, and yes, this is stubborn techie self-laceration that lashes out at everyone else and tells them they're the problem.

I just had a tenant tell me that if Firestorm didn't find a way to let people change their settings or roll back to the previous version, she would leave SL. For all the reasons you've stated. Most people have other socializing or creative activities they can do, and even other worlds to go to like VRchat.

The thread specifically on these issues doesn't bode well, as it sounds like both SL and FS are determined to go the way blazed by Oz Linden in imposing 2.0, even with search crippled (which Firestorm then essentially repaired/maintained which enabled people to shop for the next 15 years).

I am a determined user, have gone through many computers over the years and have spent some weeks on SL unable to move, in the dark, waiting for these spasms to pass -- sometimes they do, but they sound too wedded to PBR. The world was shiny enough without this and it is not justified. I bet even if the concurrency was cut in half, with many people citing PBR, the Lindens would keep going because they would believe that just around the corner is a mob of new people with fast, new computers who will find this a breeze and come flocking into SL.

At present I am on a very lousy computer (even if new) without sufficient graphic power and memory to play SL, and I am forced to be on FS VERY reluctantly because nothing else would work -- I prefer Alchemy or the regular SL viewer. I am waiting to repair my other computer when I have the cash but that's only to bring it back to the status quo ante with the SL viewer -- not to play PBR which evidently will be forced on us soon, as viewer 2.0 and mesh were forced on us.

 

[Prokofy Neva]

9 hours ago, AlbaneClaray said:

No, this is not only your opinion. Being a landscaper and estate owner, since yesterday I am seriously thinking to sell all my lands and stop all activities on SL. This new PBR totally ruined my SL. Of course I uninstalled the PBR firestorm version to come back to the previous one but I know it is only a temporarily solution. That is really the badest experience.

Albane, how did you manage to do this with FS? I have a tenant saying she uninstalled and can't get the previous version back on. You are a voice of authority here as you do such beautiful landscaping and you want things to look nice.

[Love Zhaoying]

I never really messed with EEP, OR with WindLight.

So, having to do anything at all for things to be "acceptable" is "new to me"! 

GET OFF MY LAWN!

 

 

[Prokofy Neva]

3 hours ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

If you do not limit the frame rate, it will run at full gear and will deliver more fps than most (if not all) other viewers, but will also squeeze the last bit of power from your CPU, and throw has many draw calls as it can at your GPU, making your fans roar.

To prevent ludicrous frame rates (I can get up to 1500fps in my sky box with two alts around and in forward rendering mode, which of course does not make much sense at all), get your PC to run cool and quiet, and get things to rez even faster (the ”free” CPU time between frames being used to load objects and textures faster), do use its smart frame rate limiter (”Preferences” floater, ”Cool features” tab, ”Misc.” sub-tab, ”Frame rate limit” spinner) !

Do you have a link to your latest viewer and a tutorial explaining how to do these settings? 

[Nalates Urriah]

9 hours ago, RicDelMoro said:

My experience with EEP : I made some very simple skies and I use them everywhere I go. With PBR I try to deactivate the maximum of features as possible.
I hated all these arrogant changes that force us to buy stronger computers. With the PBR it is worse, it puts more strain on the machine and socialization is becoming unfeasible.
Users who like simple things like driving and doing some roleplaying in door don't care at all about these "improvements" that LL introduced.
If you're the type of guy who goes out to buy a new computer every time Lindelab's mood changes, congratulations, but not me, I'm a normal person who plays just for fun and I have thousands of other leisure options on the Web.
As a result of these beautiful news,my gameplay has deteriorated,caused an effect opposite to that desired by LL. It's sad to say, but currently I avoid places with more people and very complex landscapes, I've been playing in a kind of "survival mode". I know if I step outside my box my PC will overheat or crash. And the time I spend online in SL has decreased. I keep logging into SL out of sheer stubbornness, even though my rational side is saying: "go do something else"...This is just my opinion, if you are happy with all these changes tell us here.
 

You have completely lost touch with reality.

The idea the Lab is arrogantly changing things is your opinion. That you are forced to buy a new computer... no. Watch David Clement's "Let My People Go" to get sense of how people in touch with reality think of force. The Lab is way behind on viewer technology for games. They do their best to help legacy users come along. But when it is at the expense of new users, something has to give.

If you pay attention to the community and especially if you attend user group meetings and talk with the Lab's engineers you know there is considerable pressure to upgrade SL to newer tech.

It should be obvious they will not and cannot cater to your specific needs/desires and stay in business.

Technology is advancing. Microsoft, Apple, all the gaming companies phase out their older products and versions as they move to more advanced tech. The users spending money, want new tech. You are a minority. Wake up.

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

Tell us if the EEP and PBR introduction changed the way you play SL

PBR: It doesn't really change the way I play, but I don't really like the way it looks. I didn't really like materials either, though, so none of the "improvements" or "updates" made my SL any better.  I dislike shiny, greasy so I was never going to like the new graphics.

EEPs: I eventually got used to using EEPs. They look better than default lighting.

As far as how they were introduced... There could have been much more education on how they work and why the switch was made. By "education" I mean for average users and not just a few creators. 

[Cristiano Midnight]

47 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I think this is somewhat true, although arguably the introduction of mesh, which can't be built (at least easily) in-world really marked the end of creative building as a major component for most of the SL experience.

The primary new hurdle that this adds is creating additional maps for PBR. Not everyone uses Blender and/or Substance Painter. But creating normal and spectral maps for the old system also involved moving outside of Photoshop -- and there are some cheap or even free tools available online.

In the building and texturing forum, I posted links to Materialize and GLTF Packer - both are very useful, and free. GLTF is just more maps (and some need to be combined in a single map on RGB channels). Nothing done with normal and specular maps in terms of creation can't be accomplished with free tools for PBR either. Hell, there are even tutorials on Youtube for creating PBR materials with free AI tools.

Edited June 22 by Cristiano Midnight

[BriannaLovey]

14 minutes ago, animats said:

The basic situation now is pretty simple. Now you need a reasonably good GPU.

I have two desktop machines side by side. One has an NVidia 640 2GB, a GPU from 2012 that now costs about US$50. The other has an NVidia 3070, a GPU from 2020 that costs about US$500.

With Firestorm 6.x, both were acceptable for running SL. The low-end machine could get about 18 FPS in New Babbage, with about 75% GPU utilization. So, as usual, the viewer was limited by main-thread CPU speed.

On the low end machine, frame rate drops to 15FPS with Firestorm 7.x. Nothing seems to be able to get it above that speed. "Auto-tuning" doesn't help. GPU utilization is 100%.

With Firestorm 6.x on the high-end machine, FPS is still only 18 in New Babbage. GPU utilization is 39%.

On the high-end machine, though, frame rate goes up to 138 FPS. GPU utilization is at 87%. If I turn on every rendering feature, frame rate is 80 FPS in the same place.

So, at last, having a good GPU improves SL quality substantially.

This is going to be a problem for laptops with "integrated graphics". Many of them just don't have enough GPU engine, and you can't upgrade.

What to get now? The cheapest NVidia GPU of a current generation is the GeForce RTX 3050 8GB, for about US$200.

Or you could just use Cool VL Viewer, which makes PBR optional: http://sldev.free.fr/

[PekeNL]

10 hours ago, RicDelMoro said:

I hated all these arrogant changes that force us to buy stronger computers.

By this alone everything you say has become invalid. glTF, The PBR SL uses, got released in 2015, and the fact people cannot upgrade is not a valid factor for technical changes within the engine. PC is a hobby. If you can't pay for it, that's on you, nobody else should suffer because there's a group that refuse to accept their 10 year old PC/Laptop will one day be rendered insufficient for things.

Either you upgrade, or you don't - but nobody is to blame you cannot play SL but yourself. (If you cannot upgrade, I'm sorry to hear that)

[Scylla Rhiadra]

18 minutes ago, Flea Yatsenko said:

I've got a really good feeling a lot of these spec/norm materials look terrible in PBR because the spec/norm was created with one of those free tools that generates them from a regular diffuse texture. Generating PBR from diffuse/spec/norm is a very difficult thing to do even if the spec/norm was created properly, let alone with LL's alpha channel tricks that are supposed to be in the spec/norm maps.

Just because it's physically based doesn't mean it's accurate. Nothing is stopping creators from going "SHINY GOOD!!" and setting roughness to be super shiny. I think that's going to be a big problem for PBR when it starts out.

I don't at all disagree. Add to that the fact that BP diffuse textures often already have an AO baked in, and that the old maps just look different in the new rendering system.

And even "professional" creators in SL are going to face a learning curve. How long before they figure out that old spectral maps can't be recycled as rough maps?

[Luna Bliss]

A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing, so I've heard.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

12 minutes ago, Cristiano Midnight said:

In the building and texturing forum, I posted links to Materialize and GLTF Packer - both are very useful, and free. GLTF is just more maps (and some need to be combined in a single map on RGB channels). Nothing done with normal and spectral maps in terms of creation can't be accomplished with free tools for PBR either. Hell, there are even tutorials on Youtube for creating PBR materials with free AI tools.

Yeah. I've been using GLTF Packer for a while. I haven't experimented yet with making my own rough or emissive maps yet; I've just modified some free PBR textures in Photoshop.

Next step. It's doable.

[Cristiano Midnight]

4 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Yeah. I've been using GLTF Packer for a while. I haven't experimented yet with making my own rough or emissive maps yet; I've just modified some free PBR textures in Photoshop.

Next step. It's doable.

Check out Materialize also - there are some excellent tutorials for it on Youtube.

[AmeliaJ08]

1 hour ago, BriannaLovey said:

Not everyone has a dedicated GPU. The vast majority of systems have only integrated graphics, most of which are inadequate for rendering PBR.

In that case they've been using systems incapable of running SL with ALM enabled even. That was 2014...

That is also not what LL say, they claim to have done hardware surveys and believe the users use systems capable of running this.

 

Edited June 22 by AmeliaJ08

[PekeNL]

6 hours ago, RicDelMoro said:

"Overengineering can kill your product"  I suggest you guys take a look at this interesting article here :

https://www.mindtheproduct.com/overengineering-can-kill-your-product/

Except they aren't overengineering it. They're trying to come back from years of technical debt that is partially the fault of people running core 2 duo's expecting a smooth experience.