So what changed in the Terms of Service?

[Qie Niangao]

27 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

[…] -- and, in any case, if someone's wearing an alpha layer, how do you know what's underneath it?

Yeah. I promised myself never to discuss this again, but I just can't get it out of my head: Who will know including Governance that I'm wearing a verboten skin under an alpha mask rather than the modesty-patched version of that skin under the same alpha mask? So why should anybody need a new, approved skin instead of a decent alpha mask? How could anybody or anything beyond the baking service know the difference?

The only way I've been able to make any sense of this is if all potentially child-representing avatars are replaced by a new generation with a non-BOM lowest texture layer. But of course that doesn't actually prevent anything because "anything" can be layered on top, unless these avatars prevent the use of any skins at all.

[Love Zhaoying]

I think, that there's enough "new Forumites" who don't understand the Forum Community Guidelines, or know to stop and listen to moderation, that if there's not a change the thread could be in danger soon.

Hopefully, there's a possibility of staying on topic: underwear. I mean, the TOS changes.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Qie Niangao said:

Yeah. I promised myself never to discuss this again, but I just can't get it out of my head: Who will know including Governance that I'm wearing a verboten skin under an alpha mask rather than the modesty-patched version of that skin under the same alpha mask? So why should anybody need a new, approved skin instead of a decent alpha mask? How could anybody or anything beyond the baking service know the difference?

The only way I've been able to make any sense of this is if all potentially child-representing avatars are replaced by a new generation with a non-BOM lowest texture layer. But of course that doesn't actually prevent anything because "anything" can be layered on top, unless these avatars prevent the use of any skins at all.

Nobody will know. It's just awful, if people don't follow the new guidelines, they will be walking around with nothing underneath their clothing.

On the plus side, since no one will know, it is up to everyone to use common sense and give the benefit of a doubt. We don't want to have checkpoints with underwear inspections!

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 hour ago, Honey Puddles said:

@Linden Lab @Tommy Linden @Maggie Linden @Keira Linden

This post is not intended to 'join in' on the arguing back and forth. This is some direct and considered feedback that I hope you will consider when updating the FAQ in the coming days.

There seems to be a lot of kibitzing going on over the specific words and phrases being used in the rules, and people are poring over it for any scrap of loopholes. Some issues that need to be specifically addressed (in direct words) in the FAQ are:

Regarding Modesty Panels

Layers?
Change uses of the word "Layer" to "Panel" or "Patch".. This is causing confusion as to whether the use of system clothing 'layers' are an acceptable alternative to having a modesty patch on the skin.

Baked, they said Baked!
Similarly, change usage of the phrase "Baked onto" if you do not mean to imply that Bakes-On-Mesh Layers are an acceptable solution. Perhaps a better phrase is "Rendered or painted directly on the skin's textures", if that's what you mean to imply.

How much modesty, is modest enough?

Are grey crotch triangles and/or nipple-cover pastie style circles acceptable, or must this be an apparent clothing item? Do 'girl presenting avatars' with fully flat chests have to have bras? Is there an apparent age point where one is and isn't required?  Is a C-string style cover acceptable, or do child avatars need actual panties painted on? Are thongish panties or high-cut briefs compliant, or does everyone need knee-length boxers?

What specifically must be covered? It's an uncomfortable question to ask and answer particularly from the corporate world of worries of sexual harassment, sensitivity, etc, but there must be no ambiguity here, for child avs and asset creators. Where is the line here?

Regarding "Must not match the skin tone"

Surprisingly there's some room for quibble here as well. "by how much" is hard to quantify.. but also 'must the patch be hard edged?" comes into play here as well. A slightly different shade of brown or tan.. technically doesn't match. Does the patch need to be hard edged like a stamp, or can it be feathered along the edges to provide a more subtle transition for situations where an edge might peek out of a swimsuit?

Tintable panels?

A further question is raised if the modesty panels are accomplished through use of a transparent 'hole' in the skin textures, allowing the tint-able system layer under the skin textures to show. If creators offer this on a modifiable skin, it's potentially possible for users to tint their modesty panels to match the skin. Even if not sold that way, will the creator face sanctions when a user tints their modesty panels to match their skin?

Regarding "Fully Nude"

This phrase in actual SL usage is extremely vague. We realize you're not regular users of the service and it's often hard to remember every way SL is used.

For the pedants, "I'm wearing socks" can be interpreted by some as compliant with the idea of 'not being fully nude'.

Less pedantically, there are some clear questions about the phrase. Does a worn mesh diaper comply? Does mesh panties even if the skin has genitals on it? Do BOM layer undies or a C-string comply? If an avatar strips down to nothing but a body/skin (that *IS* compliant, complete with painted-on modesty panels).. is THAT considered being nude? Do modesty panels alone constitute 'not nude?

Regarding child avatar users

Some folks seem to be getting the idea that this rule only applies to content creators, and that child avatar users themselves have no direct compliance requirements. I personally think it's pretty clear, but I have 18+ years of experience in reading LL's announcements. Child avatars can't be forced to personally modify their skins, because child avatars largely don't make their own skins, they buy them. The creators need to update their assets, the child avatars need to use compliant assets by June 30. This needs some clarification.

Regarding "use of Moderate or Adult keywords"

Will creators be notified at time of publication which keywords they've used are considered Moderate or Adult? It seems unfair to threaten content creators with expulsion from SL over keywords they may not realize are not allowed to be utilized. It may be time to put an end to the 'hidden rules' mindset. Yes, this allows certain creators to potentially abuse the situation. Those abusers can be admonished. Do not march child-avatar asset creators, trying in good faith to comply, to their doom across a hidden minefield.

Example.. the word "Latex" may be understood to be one of those words. But Latex is a name for a shiny material, which may be used (for example) in the description of included material options for a diaper cover. "Cute cartoon patterned diaper cover for your Toddleedoo, available in Plastic, Rubber, and Glossy Latex finishes" .. there should be some system in place for 'you've used the wrong keyword, it's been removed' or 'you need to change that'.

lol you are absolutly right….. in before the lock 😂

[BilliJo Aldrin]

4 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Yeah. I promised myself never to discuss this again, but I just can't get it out of my head: Who will know including Governance that I'm wearing a verboten skin under an alpha mask rather than the modesty-patched version of that skin under the same alpha mask? So why should anybody need a new, approved skin instead of a decent alpha mask? How could anybody or anything beyond the baking service know the difference?

The only way I've been able to make any sense of this is if all potentially child-representing avatars are replaced by a new generation with a non-BOM lowest texture layer. But of course that doesn't actually prevent anything because "anything" can be layered on top, unless these avatars prevent the use of any skins at all.

all children will be required to purchase a new no mod avatar.

”Lets lift off and nuke it from orbit, its the only way to be sure”

[Ingrid Ingersoll]

7 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I, for one, thank you and applaud you for wearing underwear. 

Thank you. Its not as hard as people make it out to be.

[Cindy Evanier]

1 minute ago, Blush Bravin said:

How are you going to distinguish a 17 year old from an 18 year old?

Well, since I cultivated my own RL just turned 18 yr old I am not. If you lined all their friends up together male, female and trans) there is just no way to tell but since it is my region, I will observe their behavior and then make a judgement call. I get the personal ick from certain behaviour when theres older male looking avatars around this age of avatar but that's another story.

[Starberry Passion]

4 minutes ago, Wincil said:

Well some things in anime can be a exaggeration of real life thing's so. 

That's not what I said. It can be an exaggeration all it wants but it will never be a real actual human.

It will always be a fictional character, just my avatar will never be a real actual human. It's just my doll that I get to dress up

talk to other people on, live on a sim, visit other sims. 

When you log off of your p.c and you look at the people in your house, Those are real humans, those are real people.

On here, the avatars we use are not real people, the person behind the avatar is real but non of the avatars on second life is real.

[Love Zhaoying]

14 minutes ago, Wincil said:

It's way to curvy to be considered teenage cartoons they don't look like that to me. 

Did you know, that the way you emphasize your text, it looks like this in Dark Theme? It's highly unusual, so I wanted to point it out. A lot of Forumites use the Dark Theme due to vision problems, etc.

 

[Vivienne Schell]

7 minutes ago, Daniel Regenbogen said:

International law does not forbid non-sexualized child nudity. It rightfully forbids pornography, but that is something different.

Once  graphics displaying some "child avatar" in explicit poses, which were produced in SL, are found on some raided pedo circle hard disks or the dark net Linden Lab will be in trouble.

With AI gaining momentum in the pedo circles the situation - inavodably - will become even much more critical, in regards to app created sexualised child display. Linden Lab cannot simply ignore that, Meta already reacted, also the most european countries and governments are reacting. Linden Lab only protects itself and their platform, and also their customers by these measurements.

[Daniel Regenbogen]

5 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

On the plus side, since no one will know, it is up to everyone to use common sense and give the benefit of a doubt. We don't want to have checkpoints with underwear inspections!

Common sense? From the self-declared child protectors and pedo hunters? They are on a crusade which started many years ago.

[Blush Bravin]

14 minutes ago, Wincil said:

It's way to curvy to be considered teenage cartoons they don't look like that to me. 

I've already addressed the issue of curves and age in more than one post. Unless you're putting on a lot of weight post age 18 or have given birth, you're shape is not going to be much different from the one you had at 15! And even if you have given birth and lost the weight put on during pregnancy the difference in your shape is going to be minimal. Weight is the difference not age!

[Wincil]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Did you know, that the way you emphasize your text, it looks like this in Dark Theme? It's highly unusual, so I wanted to point it out. A lot of Forumites use the Dark Theme due to vision problems, etc.

 

Tbh I don't think really see any need to do that if people can see it clearly. 

[BilliJo Aldrin]

3 minutes ago, Starberry Passion said:

That's not what I said. It can be an exaggeration all it wants but it will never be a real actual human.

It will always be a fictional character, just my avatar will never be a real actual human. It's just my doll that I get to dress up

talk to other people on, live on a sim, visit other sims. 

When you log off of your p.c and you look at the people in your house, Those are real humans, those are real people.

On here, the avatars we use are not real people, the person behind the avatar is real but non of the avatars on second life is real.

What’s sad is that a man went to jail in rl recently for having hard core anime porn on his computer. I’ll try to find a link when i get home

[Daniel Regenbogen]

Just now, Vivienne Schell said:

Once  graphics displaying some "child avatar" in explicit poses, which were produced in SL, are found on some raided pedo circle hard disks or the dark net Linden Lab will be in trouble.

With AI gaining momentum in the pedo circles the situation - inavodably - will become even much more critical, in regards to app created sexualised child display. Linden Lab cannot simply ignore that, Meta already reacted, also the most european countries and governments are reacting. Linden Lab only protects itself and their platform, and also their customers by these measurements.

Oh good that you mentioned AI. AI generated pictures are waayyyyyy more advanced than *anything* that can be done in SL. Compared with AI generated pictures SL graphics are last century technology.

[Wincil]

8 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

I've already addressed the issue of curves and age in more than one post. Unless you're putting on a lot of weight post age 18 or have given birth, you're shape is not going to be much different from the one you had at 15! And even if you have given birth and lost the weight put on during pregnancy the difference in your shape is going to be minimal. Weight is the difference not age!

Again that still doesn't address the issue not everyone would want children ngl this can come off as body shaming for some people.  

Edited May 4 by Wincil

[Chery Amore]

8 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Yeah. I promised myself never to discuss this again, but I just can't get it out of my head: Who will know including Governance that I'm wearing a verboten skin under an alpha mask rather than the modesty-patched version of that skin under the same alpha mask? So why should anybody need a new, approved skin instead of a decent alpha mask? How could anybody or anything beyond the baking service know the difference?

The only way I've been able to make any sense of this is if all potentially child-representing avatars are replaced by a new generation with a non-BOM lowest texture layer. But of course that doesn't actually prevent anything because "anything" can be layered on top, unless these avatars prevent the use of any skins at all.

Alpha masks can come off easily just by putting on something else.. and I'm not suggesting that it's something lewd by saying that. My items come off all the time because I hit "wear" by mistake.. or worse yet put on a whole folder.  Even alpha cuts can be glitchy on the bodies they can go on and off with glitches or if a certain clothing isn't made right. As for BOM undies.. the same thing applies it can come of very innocently when you try something else on or do something by mistake. I think the skin rules allow no oppsie accidents either innocent or not. All bases are covered. 

I do want to say something else about this in general. I see a lot of people trying to buck the system already over these rules in this thread.... saying I won't or they won't know. I wonder how many of them are going to end up banned and then go crying that they did nothing wrong on other forums. I can even see the Lindens trying to educate them on rules and being met with protests in return instead of compliance with the rules leading to actual bans.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

4 minutes ago, Vivienne Schell said:

Once  graphics displaying some "child avatar" in explicit poses, which were produced in SL, are found on some raided pedo circle hard disks or the dark net Linden Lab will be in trouble.

With AI gaining momentum in the pedo circles the situation - inavodably - will become even much more critical, in regards to app created sexualised child display. Linden Lab cannot simply ignore that, Meta already reacted, also the most european countries and governments are reacting. Linden Lab only protects itself and their platform, and also their customers by these measurements.

why would anyone waste time recording sl porn when with AI you could produce far more graphic and realistic porn featuring any age you wanted?

[Starberry Passion]

Just now, BilliJo Aldrin said:

What’s sad is that a man went to jail in rl recently for having hard core anime porn on his computer. I’ll try to find a link when i get home

If that was the Canadian man, that is Canadian laws, not U.S. laws, however

anime is not real, it shouldn't be equated to human being at all, they're fictional characters. He cannot touch them, cannot feel them, cannot hurt those anime cartoons so he shouldn't have been arrested and put in jail but we have to refrain from speaking of such things here.

But no art, fictional creation should be considered an actual human.

[Blush Bravin]

29 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Who will know including Governance that I'm wearing a verboten skin under an alpha mask rather than the modesty-patched version of that skin under the same alpha mask?

My experience is that while rezzing in before completely rezzed, I've often seen parts of the mesh body that were made invisible once the alpha actually rezzed. It's the main reason why I wear BoM undies and don't just rely on an alpha for modesty.

22 minutes ago, Starberry Passion said:

That's not what I said. It can be an exaggeration all it wants but it will never be a real actual human.

When I said the avatars didn't look human, I meant they didn't LOOK human. They look like cartoons who share some human characteristics. I am not confusing the fact that avatars are NEVER really human. To further explain, to me most avatars using Lelutka heads LOOK human, but I've seen some that distort the facial proportions so much that they move past looking human to looking more alien.

All that said, whether an avatar looks human or not if they present as a child then I believe the rules need to apply to them as well, human or not.

21 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Did you know, that the way you emphasize your text, it looks like this in Dark Theme? It's highly unusual, so I wanted to point it out. A lot of Forumites use the Dark Theme due to vision problems, etc.

 

I have vision issues and honestly the dark theme makes it so much worse for me. So while I get that for some dark works better .. I HATE it!

Edited May 4 by Blush Bravin

[Starberry Passion]

2 minutes ago, Vivienne Schell said:

Judged by your comments you enjoy last century sexualised display of children a lot. Oe why do you defend it?

Please do not equate child avatars to actual children, child avatars are not real, children are real. Just call them child avatars.

[Ingrid Ingersoll]

7 minutes ago, Vivienne Schell said:

Eith AI gaining momentum in the pedo circles the situation - inavodably - will become even much more critical, in regards to app created sexualised child display. Linden Lab cannot simply ignore that, Meta already reacted, also the most european countries and governments are reacting. Linden Lab only protects itself and their platform, and also their customers by these measurements.

And as someone pointed out, most other platforms like roblox, imvu etc don't even allow nudity. SL is the last place you can go to see nude child avatars with full genitalia. And that's probably why there is panic, because there no where else to go to see that now.

[AmeliaJ08]

25 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

How are you going to distinguish a 17 year old from an 18 year old?

Therein lies the problem. Plenty are taking it as a "who cares, I'll just report anyone who looks younger than me" opportunity as if they've been handed some kind of superpower. In a sense they're right.

 

[Jackson Redstar]

On 5/2/2024 at 1:35 PM, Rowan Amore said:

Residents presenting as Child Avatars shall be prohibited from the following:

Entering any Region rated Adult. Residents must change to a non-child or non-childlike avatar to visit Adult rated regions.

 

again one of those well intentioned things that doesn't always work out properly. I do weddings, and alot of wedding are on private sim, often with a A rating, and alot of wedding have children - flower girls and ring bears, along with sometimes just children of the guests

[Love Zhaoying]

13 minutes ago, Wincil said:

Tbh I don't think really see any need to do that if people can see it clearly. 

Just letting you know, I've no idea what it looks like in light mode, but in dark mode it's similar to pasting text from a website.