An observation about interactions between men in Second Life

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Just now, Persephone Emerald said:

I'd like to hear from more guys in this thread about their friendships with other men in SL.

Yeah. It's interesting, I suppose, that a few of the men who have posted here seem to confirm the OP's generalization, but that's a very small sample.

I'm ducking out of this thread because I do think it's rather pointless if it's only women speculating about men. And there does seem to be some resentment about that as well, which I have no wish to provoke.

[Love Zhaoying]

10 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I'm not sure it's "sexist" -- that's a function of whether or not value judgments are being applied.

Has anyone argued that it's somehow a failure in men that they don't socialize as much with other men (if that is in fact the case)? I have been pretty careful not to imply that. "Different" doesn't mean "worse." It just means . . . different.

Maybe I've missed it, but I haven't seen anyone saying any of these things here?

Even BilliJo's take -- which is that men are the way they supposedly are because they're mostly interested in sex -- doesn't necessarily imply a criticism of men. It's fine to be mostly interested in sex, surely?

Merely implied. But no, I'd say BJ's take on it is a judgement.

[Love Zhaoying]

5 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Yeah. It's interesting, I suppose, that a few of the men who have posted here seem to confirm the OP's generalization, but that's a very small sample.

I'm ducking out of this thread because I do think it's rather pointless if it's only women speculating about men. And there does seem to be some resentment about that as well, which I have no wish to provoke.

90% of my SL friends have always been men (mostly straight).

I think if you turned the tables on the discussion and it was "men discussing women", it would be crystal clear where the perceived resentment comes from. Basically, there's a double standard at play here.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

90% of my SL friends have always been men (mostly straight).

I think if you turned the tables on the discussion and it was "men discussing women", it would be crystal clear where the perceived resentment comes from. Basically, there's a double standard at play here.

I don't think that if you had men talking about women, that the women would shy away from responding here.

I also don't know how much more emphatically I, and others, could have articulated our hope that men would post here.

In any case, I don't want to contribute even to the perception of a double standard.

Edited October 22, 2023 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I'm ducking out of this thread because I do think it's rather pointless if it's only women speculating about men. And there does seem to be some resentment about that as well, which I have no wish to provoke.

Yep, after my one comment, I see the resentment as well.  Okay, guys, take over and see where this goes.  Have fun with your discussion.

[Gopi Passiflora]

I read the thread and your responses. I agree with some of your ideas and I appreciate all what you have said to me.

I agree with the ideas that men may be more activity-oriented and that men prefer one-on-one relationships. I can see myself (a man IRL) being more activity-oriented (in RL, I mostly like bonding with fellow men at video game conferences for example.) I also see myself as one-on-one type person (sometimes I'm a "third wheel" with more than two people.)

As @Love Zhaoying also said, I agree I should be less passive if I want friendships.

But again, I must also be careful not to make generalizations like I did in my OP,  like some of you have warned. I apologize yet again, I was rash when I made this topic.

[Love Zhaoying]

35 minutes ago, Gopi Passiflora said:

As @Love Zhaoying also said, I agree I should be less passive if I want friendships.

But again, I must also be careful not to make generalizations like I did in my OP,  like some of you have warned. I apologize yet again, I was rash when I made this topic.

Thank you again for the topic.  Despite some misinterpretation of my own posts, I think the discussion has gone well.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

3 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Which is why it would be so interesting to get other perspectives, and particularly male ones.

Another thought - we really don't know if some of those females posting in the thread with strong opinions are actually RL males.

That makes it a little harder to discuss, because nobody in that situation will want to give their opinion after being told by the gatekeepers to "let the males speak".

Although I DID figure it out, the "gatekeeping" is by individuals who only want to hear from males.

That makes me genuinely sad.  Not because I missed it, but because someone may think it is necessary.

Edited October 22, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[UnilWay SpiritWeaver]

3 hours ago, Persephone Emerald said:

Do others notice this pattern? That guy friends are for having fun together, while female friends are for emotional support?

It's an old stereotype that when you approach your men friends to talk about your issues they'll approach the conversation with a set of power tools and get all up in your business trying to fix you. But if you approach your women friends to talk about an issue they won't help you solve a darn thing, but they will let you vent and work through it using them as a sounding board.

Blokes have a whole Ph.D degree in the subject of "how to be a woman friend" called "clinical psychology".

I suppose the degree in "how to be a man friend" is called "computer science degree".

You can go to either set for "emotional support" - but when the stereotype actually holds (it is a stereotype after all - these these are true as often as they are false), the kind of support will feel very different.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

Just now, UnilWay SpiritWeaver said:

It's an old stereotype that when you approach your men friends to talk about your issues they'll approach the conversation with a set of power tools and get all up in your business trying to fix you. But if you approach your women friends to talk about an issue they won't help you solve a darn thing, but they will let you vent and work through it using them as a sounding board.

Yep! It's the whole, "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" trope (literally, the book with that title).

That whole attitude - unless one sincerely and truly believes it - is denigrating to women. IMHO. Because, it implies that women just want to talk about their feelings (i.e., "complain", etc.) and men - with the best intentions, want to "help" but that "help" is neither wanted or welcome by women. It paints women in a very negative light.

That people still "believe" it - IMHO - means that our culture has failed us.

This extends to Second Life.

 

[Persephone Emerald]

4 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Yep! It's the whole, "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" trope (literally, the book with that title).

That whole attitude - unless one sincerely and truly believes it - is denigrating to women. IMHO. Because, it implies that women just want to talk about their feelings (i.e., "complain", etc.) and men - with the best intentions, want to "help" but that "help" is neither wanted or welcome by women. It paints women in a very negative light.

That people still "believe" it - IMHO - means that our culture has failed us.

This extends to Second Life.

If we believe it, we probably see this dialectic as seeming true in RL. This doesn't mean it's true all the time, but it might seem to be true most of the time.

As an example, the guy friend I mentioned earlier doesn't try to solve my problems when I want to vent. He just lets me vent.

Another guy friend in RL may offer an alternate (often a more positive) perspective, which I don't like because this feels invalidating to me. I know he's trying to be helpful and might be offering a solution, but sometimes I want emotional validation at that moment. I was complaining about my former landlady keeping my coat hangers, for instance, so he bought me new coat hangers. I appreciated the gesture, but from my perspective I didn't need them as much as I needed someone to agree that she was a bad person for not respecting my property rights.

[Love Zhaoying]

15 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

If we believe it, we probably see this dialectic as seeming true in RL. This doesn't mean it's true all the time, but it might seem to be true most of the time.

As an example, the guy friend I mentioned earlier doesn't try to solve my problems when I want to vent. He just lets me vent.

Another guy friend in RL may offer an alternate (often a more positive) perspective, which I don't like because this feels invalidating to me. I know he's trying to be helpful and might be offering a solution, but sometimes I want emotional validation at that moment. I was complaining about my former landlady keeping my coat hangers, for instance, so he bought me new coat hangers. I appreciated the gesture, but from my perspective I didn't need them as much as I needed someone to agree that she was a bad person for not respecting my property rights.

It's definitely complicated - as the experiences of both sides may "reinforce" the stereotype despite everyone. 

In this case, men may be "reluctant" to participate in THIS thread, despite the question being asked by Gopi (who in most threads is discussing being "a woman" in Second Life), due to being given negative feedback in the  past for offering their advice.

 

[Paul Hexem]

Can confirm that the answer is, as noted, being activity oriented.

The few male friends I have in SL are guys I work on projects with. All my other male friends are guys I play other "real" games with or ride motorcycles with or whatever. SL would be awkward, boring, or worse with most of these guys.

Sure it's a stereotype that women want gossip and men want to complete projects, but as much as people hate to admit it, most stereotypes are based on reality, even if only mostly true.

Also, why is anyone surprised at the lack of male participation? Any time men participate in these threads, someone inevitably comes along with a gender studies degree and starts quoting biased stats about violence or something and eventually the thing just gets locked.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Paul Hexem

[Persephone Emerald]

2 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

Can confirm that the answer is, as noted, being activity oriented.

The few male friends I have in SL are guys I work on projects with. All my other male friends are guys I play other "real" games with or ride motorcycles with or whatever. SL would be awkward, boring, or worse with most of these guys.

Sure it's a stereotype that women want gossip and men want to complete projects, but as much as people hate to admit it, most stereotypes are based on reality.

Depending on the project, people can work together and gossip at the same time. Before social media, women in the Midwest or South might have a quilting bee, where they could work on a quilt together while sharing the local news. Men might do much the same at their local bar, although their conversation would likely include sports and politics, as well as what was going on with people they knew. Church ladies would share news while working on church socials. Others would spill the tea at their beauty parlor, barbershop, or at Sunday brunch.

It's not just women who gossip. Men just don't call it that.

[Arielle Popstar]

[Paul Hexem]

2 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

It's not just women who gossip. Men just don't call it that.

Situation Report?

[Love Zhaoying]

I think us men need a Letterkenny Club in Second Life, and do what those guys do.

ETA: Sorry @Gopi Passiflora, I had meant to put this in my "What do 'men friends' do?" thread! But it works here, too! 🙂 

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[Arielle Popstar]

On 10/21/2023 at 11:24 PM, Gopi Passiflora said:

tl;dr summary:

-I see at man at Social island 10 more interested in talking to women than men, despite me (a man) having said "hi" first.

-Most of my male friends/interactions are with my woman characters. My man and non-human characters are friends with and interact with women.)

-Someone made an observation that male friendships weren't common a while back.

-Maybe there's truth to that statement, and perhaps also true of positive and genuine interactions between men?

-I'm also guilty of not pursing male friendships in real life. Maybe that's the attitude the SL men have regarding them.

I remember years ago when in my early teens I tried "bonding" with my father who was into testerone inducing activities like hunting, fishing and spectator sports. Stuff I tried but didn't really care for. He used to big on table tennis and even was a champion in his community when he was young but by the time I was of an age to enjoy it, he had lost interest and would no longer play on the table we had in the basement no matter how I cajoled him. As a result we never really had a great relationship as neither of us was willing to take an interest in each others activities.

I did however have interests in motorcycles and off road trucking and being an avid reader learned lots about those and was able to talk up a storm about those activities with male friends. I've have some long term friends because of those interests and some of those initial bonding experiences, led to something deeper as years went by.

I think in SL there are few of those sorts of testerone inducing activities other than car racing, zombie killing combat sims and scoring with hot babes at clubs. The first two can be group situations whereas the latter not so much though in all there is an element of competition with each other which I think is an important factor for quite a few males. Maybe if you and the man who you said jumped into the place you were at started to engage in some competition for the females that were there, it might have led to a bonding between you as he didn't seem to be interested in trading recipes 👩‍🍳

Any case, those are some random thoughts I had about the topic.

[Flower Caerndow]

Perhaps the reason hetero men are less likely to be friends with other men in SL than in RL is because SL is perceived by many as a place for adult activities. Or maybe the men who do like socializing are the ones with female avatars.

[Ziggy Starsmith]

I been catfished so many times in SL I now believe all woman avatars are men in real life and vice versa.

[Kalegthepsionicist]

I only have one male friend I considered as friend, the other jist dj that just need to spam tp when they on set.

other guy I met is gay that want to hit on me.

problem with dude from my side, they most rp er... while I most just semi afk. when i talk always OOC

 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Kalegthepsionicist

[Kalegthepsionicist]

11 hours ago, Flower Caerndow said:

Perhaps the reason hetero men are less likely to be friends with other men in SL than in RL is because SL is perceived by many as a place for adult activities. Or maybe the men who do like socializing are the ones with female avatars.

yes also I dont like small talk ,

beside most men are in rp mode aka not being themself here.

there are dude I met talk alot since he ia drunk lol , so thats a good start of friendahip , being friemd with drunken dude

 

 

[cariboustag]

There's some intelligent and some... well, let's just call them interesting takes here.

As for my personal experience as a man interacting with other men; this just occured.

Had an interaction with a guy where he barked at me repeatedly. Usually, that'd be horrifically rude, but since he was a literal dog and I was an actual cat, I feel like it was in order. I don't think running around and goofing off as animals is the typical fare for most guys on SL though. He was a nice chap, anywho. Not a single word the entire 15 minute interaction. What a blessing for my reclusive tendencies.

Edited October 24, 2023 by cariboustag
residual phantom cat paws aren't adept at spelling it appears.

[brodiac90]

I've never played an adult male or female so I can't speak from that side, but I have a lot of experience of talkin to people as a child avatar so perhaps I can offer a unique perspective? 

I find that lots of female avis are happy to chat, I assume because there is no implicit threat? My guess is that more women would chat with men if they didn't feel pressured or under threat etc? 

As for men. Most men absolutely ignore kid avis unless they're with a significant other who is already chatting to you, and then it's more out of 'being polite,' or humoring if you know what I mean? 

It's interesting, isn't it? Women chat because there is no threat, men do not because there is nothing to gain and when they do it's because there's something to lose if they don't? 

[Love Zhaoying]

49 minutes ago, cariboustag said:

well, let's just call them interesting takes here.

I like your take on it!

49 minutes ago, cariboustag said:

Had an interaction with a guy where he barked at me repeatedly. Usually, that'd be horrifically rude, but since he was a literal dog and I was an actual cat, I feel like it was in order. I don't think running around and goofing off as animals is the typical fare for most guys on SL though. He was a nice chap, anywho. Not a single word the entire 15 minute interaction. What a blessing for my reclusive tendencies.

One of my best friends in SL was always a dog (but a RL female).  Someone who can be "in character" as a feral (not anthro) animal is always fun!

Consider also, that Dogs are stereotypically 'man's best friend'...

There's also a saying, "Need a friend? Get a dog!"  

So in his small (very small) way, the guy in your story was being a GREAT friend!

Edited October 24, 2023 by Love Zhaoying