An observation about interactions between men in Second Life

[Love Zhaoying]

11 hours ago, Gopi Passiflora said:

 

(Might be yet another incoherent train of thought. I'll try to summarize what I said at the end. I understand some of you may not accept my apology, but please understand that this topic involves gender again. The thought just came to my head.)

 

Thanks for your bravery in bringing up what is often an interesting, yet contentious topic.

[Ceka Cianci]

30 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Most guys don't want to make friends with other guys, that's the point. If a straight guy hangs around a club or social hub wanting to make friends with other straight guys, he's probably wasting his time, and THAT is what the OP wanted to know

I didn't see anywhere in the post about it being just about social clubs, but did see something about them saying, someone said male friendships weren't common.. Which is wrong because they are very common and a lot of men probably have more male friends than they do women..

It might be more common in SL for men to have less men friends.. But that's not how it is in RL.. Men do look to make male friends  or they wouldn't have so many of them..

A situation where it's a club or a place where they go to meet women.. Ya that's different and you could probably look at SL as being that sort of club in many peoples eyes..

The OP might have been about one situation in one place, but they expanded on that to a more general range..

Edited October 22, 2023 by Ceka Cianci

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

I am not a guy, so I'm not sure what advice I can give to guys who just want other guy friends.

In real life many of the guys I know that are friends with each other do things like work on a car together or drink a beer around a campfire or discuss pruning the trees or discuss hunting or politics.  I'm not sure how those kinds of interactions would translate in SL.  Maybe going to a sandbox or building class?  Joining a combat or racing group?  What activities inworld might have more male interest without having "hooking up" as the end goal?

Maybe you just need to join groups for things you're interested in.  Same advice as for any friendship for anyone of any gender or none.

Hanging out in a club or welcome area doesn't really provide an activity to discuss so finding friends randomly could be harder for anyone not looking for a sex partner.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 hour ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I don't think the topic is about men picking up men to get lucky, but more men meeting in places.

Why did the guy talk to the girls instead of him was what I gathered from it.. Not ,why did the guy try to get laid from the girls instead of me.. hehehe

the guys talked to the girls because they wanted to get laid. they were not there to make new male friends.

but you do suggest another point, if a guy was approached by another guy at a social hub, he might suspect that the guy talking to him is gay, since from his point of view, why would anyone ever talk to anyone else unless they were trying to get lucky?

[Scylla Rhiadra]

This is a pretty old question, and a pretty well-recognized phenomenon. I think I may have even started a thread on the subject myself once.

And, again, like all of these sorts of things, we are dependent upon anecdotal information that may say more about context and community than it does about gender as a whole.

But -- bearing in mind again that this is just my experience, and should be applied carefully (if at all) as a generalization -- the men I know, none of whom are exactly "players" in the conventional sense (although they are mostly straight) do tend to fit into this pattern of being relatively uninterested in male friends, and mostly drawn to women ones.

A case in point from about a half year ago: at a music event filled mostly with people who all knew each other pretty well, a conversation on this theme arose in local during the dancing. A man friend of mine was apparently intrigued, and later contacted a mutual friend (a man) in IM to discuss this. Both are straight, and both already know each other pretty well (in fact, I met one through the other); neither is what I would call homophobic. But my friend who was contacted to discuss this IMed me to get advice on it, in a tone that was sort of half way between "bemused" and "mildly panicky." He didn't know what to make of it, and he didn't know how to respond. He later suggested to our mutual man friend -- the one who'd reached out -- that he talk to me -- a woman -- to get my insights into it. Like, I'd know?

I don't get it at all, and what makes it weirder is that men do bond, quite a bit, with other men in RL: there have been books (some very influential ones) on male homosociality in RL.

And it's not mirrored, at least in my communities, by women's behaviour: most of the women I know (and I'd include myself in this number) do bond a lot, probably mostly, with other women, and in fact create small communities or coteries of women who get together to talk, shop, or whatever.

I have no idea why. And again, this is just my experience: YMMV. But it certainly seems to me that men's social behaviour is different in SL in a way that women's is not. And in my experience it isn't just, or even primarily, about sex.

[Ceka Cianci]

6 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

the guys talked to the girls because they wanted to get laid. they were not there to make new male friends.

but you do suggest another point, if a guy was approached by another guy at a social hub, he might suspect that the guy talking to him is gay, since from his point of view, why would anyone ever talk to anyone else unless they were trying to get lucky?

Ya, that situation was pretty obvious.. I'm not saying that it wasn't.. But the OP was asking more than that and made it more in general than guys out looking for girls or other guys to get laid.

I'm just saying, guys do seek out other guys for more than just getting laid..  Because I have a whole crowd of guys that my husband knows that  he'll drag home and be hanging out with in the house, that I have to kick out because of it getting late, or down at the shop or  the garage or the barn... There always seems to be a new one added into there as well..

But, I will say this also.. it doesn't have to be a social club for a man  to approach a women either..

I've went to the gun range, gotten in my stall and have the range start to slow down.. Then have 5 guys aging anywhere from 25 to 60 behind my booth commenting on the clustering in my targets and asking me about my guns and how long I've been shooting,where am I from,am i married.. Then the owner bring out all kinds of guns to let me try.. Then the next thing you know everyone is in my booth trying out the new guns and just socializing in my booth.. If i would have walked in there with my husband, that would have never happened.. lol

The grocery store, the bank, the gas station, parking lots.. guys don't really need a club to try and get laid.. They just need the opportunity.. hehehehe

 

[Love Zhaoying]

If you go where you see activity like a guy saying "hi" to all the women, it's not really a reflection of Second Life, or "all guys" in Second Life. It's just a reflection of "that guy" in "that setting".

It's disappointing and depressing that some jump to the lowest denominator and say, "that's just how guys are", and "that's just how Second Life is. B.S.!

[Persephone Emerald]

8 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I've went to the gun range, gotten in my stall and have the range start to slow down.. Then have 5 guys aging anywhere from 25 to 60 behind my booth commenting on the clustering in my targets and asking me about my guns and how long I've been shooting,where am I from,am i married.. Then the owner bring out all kinds of guns to let me try.. Then the next thing you know everyone is in my booth trying out the new guns and just socializing in my booth.. If i would have walked in there with my husband, that would have never happened.. lol

Sounds like the owner knows an opportunity to sell more guns when he sees one. 

[Ceka Cianci]

1 minute ago, Persephone Emerald said:

Sounds like the owner knows an opportunity to sell more guns when he sees one. 

Ya, He sure did.. I was so tempted to get one, but the more I thought about it, the more I didn't need all the fancy addons it had.. hehehe

Some of them were way too big for me and way too loud.. I didn't even touch the .45 and .50 calibure ones.. Those are too much for me.. I'm comfy with anything in a 9mm petite.. hehehe

[BilliJo Aldrin]

15 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

Ya, that situation was pretty obvious.. I'm not saying that it wasn't.. But the OP was asking more than that and made it more in general than guys out looking for girls or other guys to get laid.

I'm just saying, guys do seek out other guys for more than just getting laid..  Because I have a whole crowd of guys that my husband knows that  he'll drag home and be hanging out with in the house, that I have to kick out because of it getting late, or down at the shop or  the garage or the barn... There always seems to be a new one added into there as well..

But, I will say this also.. it doesn't have to be a social club for a man  to approach a women either..

I've went to the gun range, gotten in my stall and have the range start to slow down.. Then have 5 guys aging anywhere from 25 to 60 behind my booth commenting on the clustering in my targets and asking me about my guns and how long I've been shooting,where am I from,am i married.. Then the owner bring out all kinds of guns to let me try.. Then the next thing you know everyone is in my booth trying out the new guns and just socializing in my booth.. If i would have walked in there with my husband, that would have never happened.. lol

The grocery store, the bank, the gas station, parking lots.. guys don't really need a club to try and get laid.. They just need the opportunity.. hehehehe

 

They are all hitting on you in some way.

When a guy ims me, either a friend or a stranger, I always assume it is because he hopes to get laid.

Of course when you call them out, its always noooo I just wanted to say hello.

I had a guy I've not talked to 18 months im me last night. He didn't expect to get any last night, but him and I both know where it's going if I let it.

That why i never im guys, either strangers or friends, because i'm pretty sure their initial thought is "oooo BJ is iming me, she must want some... it's my lucky day".

 

[Persephone Emerald]

I have one male friend in SL who I met at an Adult sim (The Chamber) years ago. That was the kind of place where most of the people just stand around and talk to each other in IMs while they're trying to hook up, so not so different from most SL clubs. He said hello to me, we chatted, and ended up becoming friends. I'm sure there was the idea that this could become sexual, but when we tried SL sex a couple times, we just didn't click. We've stayed friends though, of the sort that say hi and check in with each other, but don't do much else. We met in RL once, but didn't click in RL either.

He's told me that he's frequently working or playing another computer game with friends while he has SL open. He seems to have a few female friends in SL. He was once partnered to a female Dj, so patrons wouldn't hit on her. Last I heard he was married in RL, so I don't think he's looking to hook up in SL, so much as just to have someone to talk with. It seems to me like his male friends are the guys he plays real video games with, while his female friends in SL are the ones who listen to him when he feels down. 

Do others notice this pattern? That guy friends are for having fun together, while female friends are for emotional support?

Edited October 22, 2023 by Persephone Emerald

[Scylla Rhiadra]

3 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

That guy friends are for having fun together, while female friends are for emotional support?

Interesting insight, and . . . maybe?

It would certainly marry well with gender stereotypes (men are adventurous, women are nurturing and more emotionally connected). Which is maybe one reason to be a bit skeptical about it?

It's also, however, a case of conflating RL and SL. Why (if it's true that this is the case) do men feel ok with bonding on computer games with each other, but not in SL? Is it something specifically about SL that discourages men from socializing with other men?

[Ceka Cianci]

20 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

They are all hitting on you in some way.

When a guy ims me, either a friend or a stranger, I always assume it is because he hopes to get laid.

Of course when you call them out, its always noooo I just wanted to say hello.

I had a guy I've not talked to 18 months im me last night. He didn't expect to get any last night, but him and I both know where it's going if I let it.

That why i never im guys, either strangers or friends, because i'm pretty sure their initial thought is "oooo BJ is iming me, she must want some... it's my lucky day".

 

I'm not disagreeing with you in that at all.. Because they sure weren't gathered in each others booths before I got there.. hehehe

But I've met over the years in SL some really good guys that we've had common interests in things and become friends..

A lot is situational though too.. Like if I'm sitting at a nude or swin suit beach half naked all by myself just doing my inventory..Most IM's from guys that I get are going to be guys looking for a relationship or to go off with them to some place private  or even do whatever, right there  on the beach.. hehehe

But not all of them have.. I've had some guys where I thought they were flirting  because of being used to certain lines and them say , they weren't  one of those guys and really were just looking to chat because of something they seen in my profile..

I really don't like to put guys into a category of something like, guys are like this, and this is how we deal with that.. Because Not all guys are running around with their testostirone cranked up to maximum like a 21 year old that just moved out of the house..

I think certain places invite more of that because more like that will show up, where in other places less like that will show up.. then again, it's timing too.. I don't think all men  with all the different ages walk around thinking about women and  hooking up all the time..

I kind of think it's unfair for me to slap them into a wild animal stuck on a path of never ending , how can I get laid category.. For me they are much much more  deeper than that..

I sometimes generalize about them, but for the most part it is in fun.. But I know better really..

Edited October 22, 2023 by Ceka Cianci

[Love Zhaoying]

11 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

 Is it something specifically about SL that discourages men from socializing with other men?

The ease of "self-selecting" where you go and who hang out with, naturally skews your perception to what you see in those few places you go (bubble effect).

Similarly, if the only / majority of guys you see, in those few places you choose to go, are just "on the hunt" - then your perception is similarly skewed (limited sample bias).

Edited October 22, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[Scylla Rhiadra]

A last observation which is, again, purely anecdotal and based solely on my understanding of the women and men I know . . .

Women tend to build communities, where men seem to prefer one-on-one interactions.

That's a HUGE generalization, and I myself can think of lots of exceptions to it. One of the most community-oriented people I know in SL is a man, and he works very hard to build that. And I certainly engage one-on-one with women a great deal.

But on the whole, in my experience, women seem to be more comfortable than men (in SL) engaging in groups. My most active Discord channel is a group of seven women. I have a couple of male friends there too, but they only engage one-on-one. And in-world, I get together very frequently with groups of other women. The same doesn't seem to be true of men? I don't see packs of them wandering wild through SL, operating as a social group.

Again, qualification qualification qualification: this is just my observation. And it shouldn't be taken to imply that one approach is better than the other: I don't see anything necessarily superior to socializing in groups.

It would be awfully nice and interesting to hear some men weighing in on this. I am genuinely interested in their experiences and insights. I'm just watching from a distance.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

3 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

The ease of "self-selecting" where you go and who hang out with, naturally skews your perception to what you see in those few places you go (bubble effect).

Similarly, if the only / majority of guys you see, in those few places you choose to go, are just "on the hunt" - then your perception is similarly skewed (limited sample bias).

Definitely. For instance, BilliJo's experiences are not the same as mine, and her generalizations don't apply very well to my own experience of men.

Which is why it would be so interesting to get other perspectives, and particularly male ones.

 

[Ayashe Ninetails]

In real life, I've been the only sole woman in a group of men before. They were all close friends long before I came along and I was easily adopted into the group as I was dating one of them. They'd all go clubbing together, hang out and go shopping, go to restaurants and pubs/bars, try (and fail spectacularly) to make indie films, etc. Just dood things. I enjoyed the shenanigans and always felt welcome to join, but even if I wasn't around (I had classes 2 hours away), they'd be off on their own doing their thing and I'd hear all about it later.

SL's been a little different, but I think a lot of that has to do with why men are in here to begin with. In real life, guys can meet in tons of different places without even trying, though school and work are pretty common, as are online venues like multiplayer games and chat and offline activities like sports or hobby groups. In SL, we've got nightclubs and other activities that may or may not get a ton of people participating at once. If a guy is here for general roleplaying, then yeah sure, I can see him socializing with other guys on a regular basis. If he's here specifically to find women, likely not. A builder/creator - yeah, he might network with other male builders and creators and event managers, sure. A DJ - might just pop in on occasion to do a few sets and bounce until next time without socializing with anyone at all.

I don't think male friendships in general are rare, but I do think SL does lend itself to focus-mode a bit more than some other online platforms. "I'm here for this, and this only" vibes.

[Love Zhaoying]

39 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Women tend to build communities, where men seem to prefer one-on-one interactions.

Except fighting games, working together on SL businesses (building, "real estate" - look at the groups of men in some "realtor" pictures), running clubs (successful ones are a joint venture), etc. 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

Except fighting games, working together on SL businesses (building, "real estate" - look at the groups of men in some "realtor" pictures), running clubs (successful ones are a joint venture), etc. 

By fighting games, do you mean RP?

Two out of three of those are about "business" rather than pure socializing, though. They are working together because it's efficient or necessary to do so for other reasons; the socialization is a side-effect, maybe?

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

By fighting games, do you mean RP?

Combat. (Not really RP, guys with guns.)

1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Two out of three of those are about "business" rather than pure socializing, though.

I can think of more, those are low-hanging fruit.

Note also that straight furries tend towards more males (in my experience), whose friends are mostly males..

I can't speak for Gor.

Do you really want me to come up with a list? It does seem awfully unfair and sexist for a thread with "mostly women" to discuss all these assumptions about men and male friendships. Doesn't it?

Ironically, I've heard it said that in RL, a lot of women don't have many "real" women friends, I suppose due to the "competition".

See how well stereotypes work?

I know you're trying to be supportive, but I'm just trying to preserve some perspective.

[Love Zhaoying]

Standard logic: Men are wrong when they talk about women.  Men are also wrong when they talk about men. In Second Life. Because women don't know men in Second Life who aren't pigs and that have other male friends.

This is my take on the thread. (No offense, just observing.)

[Love Zhaoying]

59 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

 

In real life, I've been the only sole woman in a group of men before. They were all close friends long before I came along and I was easily adopted into the group as I was dating one of them.

 

Men in RL who are "dating age" generally will have other male friends; because the dating relationships come and go, but they NEED friends and will be there for each other. It's too bad it's not so obvious that Second Life is the same.

[Rowan Amore]

I have 2 sisters and my mom, of course for any female chit chat I want.  When I was in high school, I had 2 good female friends and the rest were guys.   Not friends with benefit male friends but simply friends.  We'd hang out a lot as they played guitar and I would sing.  I've never been one to 'do lunch' with female friends.  I've always preferred hanging out with my husband and his male friends.  It's simpler and stress free as they don't often talk about all the BS my female friends/sisters talk about.  My SL has always been the same.  I've had one close female friend in SL in 14 yrs.  I'm ok with that.

Men?   I have no idea what they think about male friends in SL.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

16 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Do you really want me to come up with a list? It does seem awfully unfair and sexist for a thread with "mostly women" to discuss all these assumptions about men and male friendships. Doesn't it?

I'm not sure it's "sexist" -- that's a function of whether or not value judgments are being applied.

Has anyone argued that it's somehow a failure in men that they don't socialize as much with other men (if that is in fact the case)? I have been pretty careful not to imply that. "Different" doesn't mean "worse." It just means . . . different.

9 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Standard logic: Men are wrong when they talk about women.  Men are also wrong when they talk about men. In Second Life. Because women don't know men in Second Life who aren't pigs and that have other male friends.

This is my take on the thread. (No offense, just observing.)

Maybe I've missed it, but I haven't seen anyone saying any of these things here?

Even BilliJo's take -- which is that men are the way they supposedly are because they're mostly interested in sex -- doesn't necessarily imply a criticism of men. It's fine to be mostly interested in sex, surely?

[Persephone Emerald]

22 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Except fighting games, working together on SL businesses (building, "real estate" - look at the groups of men in some "realtor" pictures), running clubs (successful ones are a joint venture), etc. 

I've known men in RL who played tabletop RP together. Usually the other women who played were wives or girlfriends. In RL Recreation groups such as the Society for Creative Anachronism, the male to female ratio seems pretty equal. In both these kinds of groups, game "fighting" is part of the play, but it's only a small part. Socializing is the primary activity - often chatting, joking, gossiping, planning future activities, talking about favorite TV shows or just life in general. Men do actually make and have other male friends in RL.

I'd like to hear from more guys in this thread about their friendships with other men in SL.