Women's expectations: Unrealistic

[Silent Mistwalker]

10 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

In the west, the process by which women have gained "personhood" -- and an associated freedom from being considered someone else's property -- has been a very slow and gradual one.

The arrival of the Europeans is what destroyed it in the first place. We aren't gaining personhood; we are regaining it. Women want what has historically been theirs for thousands of years. 

[Silent Mistwalker]

9 hours ago, Robberinthemuseum said:

Correct, women usually crack jokes and take advantage of other residents' spankers as opposed to sending creepy ims. 😅

I don't. And I don't like being lumped in with those that do. I hate spankers and tummy talkers.

One of these days men will wake up and realize I am not like other women. I don't gossip, I don't nag or any of those things men are always complaining about.

You might think it's funny, it's not. It's never funny when your own "kind" don't accept you because you aren't "typical".

[Marigold Devin]

[Persephone Emerald]

51 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

The arrival of the Europeans is what destroyed it in the first place. We aren't gaining personhood; we are regaining it. Women want what has historically been theirs for thousands of years. 

In hunter-gatherer and small plot farming societies, everyone in the group contributed to food gathering and production. Everyone was related. Everyone was dependent on each other for survival. Thus no one could afford to limit the role and rights of women.

When people began migrating into territories controlled by other groups, they began taking women as property from the people whose lands they invaded. These chattle women wouldn't have had the same rights as their own women, and over time all the women lost rights and respect, maybe in part because they weren't participating in raiding and pillaging for goods.

When the Romans described the societies of the Celts and other tribal people, the Romans had long ago reduced the rights of their own women and were surprised to see that they were often treated by the Celts and other tribal people as equals.

The Greeks were likewise surprised to see women fighting from horseback with bows and arrows among the Scythians of Anatolia, which is where their wild stories of Amazons cutting off one breast so they could fire arrows better came from. There is obviously no need to remove a breast in order to use a bow and arrow, but saying they did so, was a symbolic way to say they were less like "real women" because they engaged in activities that were limited to men in their own society.

I think there were probably indigenous women in the Americas who hunted and fought along side the men, but we don't have good records of this in our history books. We do know that women elders were respected just as much as the male elders were.

[Rowan Amore]

1 hour ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

One of these days men will wake up and realize I am not like other women. I don't gossip, I don't nag or any of those things men are always complaining about.

I don't. And I don't like being lumped in with those that do, either.

Yet you just lumped us all together yourself.   Yeah, I know.  Not what you meant, not talking to me, I'm misunderstanding what you've said, this happens all the time, everyone picks on me.  

[Silent Mistwalker]

54 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

I think there were probably indigenous women in the Americas who hunted and fought along side the men, but we don't have good records of this in our history books. We do know that women elders were respected just as much as the male elders were.

I don't think there were. I know there were. We're talking about my ancestors here. Most of the written history about them are wrong and much of it is outright lies and all written by Europeans who really had no clue what was what. Much of what was written was based on assumptions and misinterpretations.

[Paul Hexem]

11 hours ago, Stephanie Misfit said:

and you can tell they are just IMing every female avatar on their radar by how quickly they hit on you after you land there. 

This actually circles back to my original question, in a way.

What is it that makes men like that so prevalent that we see it mentioned time and time again, and the men that do it right, so to speak, so rare?

Have the good ones given up because of various (clearly debatable) stats? Do they not exist? Or is the expectation of "the correct time and place" unrealistic?

[Ceka Cianci]

8 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

This actually circles back to my original question, in a way.

What is it that makes men like that so prevalent that we see it mentioned time and time again, and the men that do it right, so to speak, so rare?

Have the good ones given up because of various (clearly debatable) stats? Do they not exist? Or is the expectation of "the correct time and place" unrealistic?

I think if you get a bunch of people in the same room and ask the question, you might get a lot of answers that might be the same.. The thing I would pay more attention to is, how often does it happen to each one compared to how many..

There might be cases where it's the same guy and  hit a few of them at the same event..

I know that a couple of times for me it was the same guy that showed up, I want to say at the same event , but  much later in time.. By same event I just mean the same place that holds the same event  over and over..

I would say it happens much less than it does happen..

Edited September 16, 2023 by Ceka Cianci

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

14 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

Have the good ones given up because of various (clearly debatable) stats? Do they not exist? Or is the expectation of "the correct time and place" unrealistic?

They exist.  I find them all the time and have lovely chats with many different men that IM'd with all kinds of different opening lines.

The "correct time and place" is not an unrealistic goal, either.  IMing a woman who is dancing with another guy is not the correct time and place. IMing anyone the second they land in a region is not the correct time and place.  Give women some credit for their ability to tell the difference between someone who is interested in them and someone who is interested in any woman avatar who lands at a landing point.

I think many women simply see through the "my only goal is getting laid" kind of opening lines.  

Edited September 16, 2023 by Cinnamon Mistwood

[Paul Hexem]

5 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I think if you get a bunch of people in the same room and ask the question, you might get a lot of answers that might be the same.. The thing I would pay more attention to is, how often does it happen to each one compared to how many..

There might be cases where it's the same guy and  hit a few of them at the same event..

I know that a couple of times for me it was the same guy that showed up, I want to say at the same event , but  much later in time.. By same event I just mean the same place that holds the same event  over and over..

I would say it happens much less than it does happen..

Selective memory, you only remember the annoying ones and not the flattering ones you politely turned down?

[Paul Hexem]

1 minute ago, Cinnamon Mistwood said:

They exist.  I find them all the time and have lovely chats with many different men that IM'd with all kinds of different opening lines.

Are you're saying the whole creepy IM complaint thing is invalid and things out there are actually balanced, so my question is pointless to ask?

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

Just now, Paul Hexem said:

Are you're saying the whole creepy IM complaint thing is invalid and things out there are actually balanced, so my question is pointless to ask?

Creepy is subjective.  I don't think it's creepy to receive an IM.  I'm just not interested in chatting for long with someone whose only goal (from my perception) is seeing some pixels bumping.  I politely decline and go on my way.  I rarely get creeped out by people.  They are who they are.

[Ceka Cianci]

2 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

Selective memory, you only remember the annoying ones and not the flattering ones you politely turned down?

I think it depends on the impression made.. If someone shocks me I'll remember that over some others that may have shocked me less..

That doesn't mean I forget the ones that were much more respectable.. I would look at things as much more being on a pallet rather than in a tunnel..

[Akane Nacht]

The only kind of creepy behaviour I dislike is when they (thus far always male avies) invade my home. Obviously they are up to no good. As for IMs... creepy, crazy, ranty - I don't mind. I used to hang out at the Gor Hub so nothing fazes me. Much better than being boring!

8 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

What is it that makes men like that so prevalent that we see it mentioned time and time again, and the men that do it right, so to speak, so rare?

Maybe cos nice people tend to be shy and obnoxious ones aren't? 

I'll ask my question again with more detail: what do (nice polite) men want in SL? for example, in a music club or casual hangout place. 

[Randall Ahren]

2 hours ago, Akane Nacht said:

Maybe cos nice people tend to be shy and obnoxious ones aren't? 

I'll ask my question again with more detail: what do (nice polite) men want in SL? for example, in a music club or casual hangout place. 

Nice guys are too shy to post in the forum. Anyone posting here is automatically disqualified as a nice guy. The best you can hope for are people who have succeeded with nice guys to post what nice guys seem to want.

[Akane Nacht]

6 minutes ago, Randall Ahren said:

Nice guys are too shy to post in the forum. Anyone posting here is automatically disqualified as a nice guy. The best you can hope for are people who have succeeded with nice guys to post what nice guys seem to want.

If that were true it would apply equally to women posting here, so you wouldn't be able to trust a thing we say 😉 

[Love Zhaoying]

3 hours ago, Akane Nacht said:

I'll ask my question again with more detail: what do (nice polite) men want in SL? for example, in a music club or casual hangout place. 

I'm too shy and polite to tell you!

[Lewis Luminos]

I'm in a fairly unusual position of having lived in both the male and female role in SL AND in RL So I have first hand experience of both sids of the fence in both worlds.

First, I think the most unrealistic expectation of all is that SL is a useful dating experience. As a dating app, SL is terrible. There are (usually) no RL photos, you can't sort or filter people by any of the most useful factors like their geographical location or age-bracket. In fact, you can't sort or filter them at all. Add to that, the fact that a good proportion of avatars in SL represent fictional RP characters. Imagine a RL dating app where all you have to go on is a cartoon style image and a short profile which may or may not be fictional? It would go bust within weeks.

Yes there are some exceptions - my own relationship with Madison being one of them. But an experience like mine is unusual enough to be noteworthy. You hear stories in the media of people finding true love in SL or in some other online game. But you see it because it's rare. If it wasn't, you'd not see the stories at all because it would be so common that no-one would care about yet another one.  What you don't see, is media stories about how people find true love using RL dating apps. Maybe, just maybe, it's because RL dating apps work better than SL for this purpose?

On 9/15/2023 at 3:25 PM, Sid Nagy said:

One thing I really like is, that a lot of IMHO not real important things like age, gender and looks are not important on forums either.
The inner person shines through, especially of those you get to know on the long term in the forums, any forums.
In world ones appearance and being plastic fantastic are often more important, than the person behind the keyboard.

On the forums it is the other way around.
More genuine in the long term, most of the time IMHO.
 

I agree. Madi and I met first on a forum (the other one), not in-world. 

On 9/15/2023 at 4:20 PM, Arielle Popstar said:

I think one has to remember the 80/20 rule or something like it where the rule of thumb is that 80% of one gender is only interested in the top 20% of the other gender. This works both ways and makes it hard to determine what average means in that context. 

On a dating app, that kinda doesn't surprise me. That's probably why they're resorting to dating apps in the first place. An unwilingness to lower expectations on physical appearance is what leads people to being perpetually single and perpetually dissatisfied. They're not even considering personality at all.  And suppose they do manage to get someone who falls into the "top 20%" of appearance? Are they going to be happy together? Probbaly not.

On 9/15/2023 at 6:52 PM, Ayashe Ninetails said:

For a start - I stan the short kings, thanks. 😂

 

❤️

On 9/15/2023 at 7:48 PM, Sid Nagy said:

Off topic pro tip:
Use some sanding paper in your hand. Sanding side towards the lid of course.
 

That's a good one I've not heard before. I usually find that running hot water over the lid for a while, then tapping the edge of the lid on the counter is nearly always successful.  Failing that; pierce the lid. But then you'll need to transfer the contents into another container, if you don't use it all up at once.

On 9/15/2023 at 10:52 PM, Luna Bliss said:

Invented so that men could keep better control of 'their women'.

Marriage dates back to around 2500BC in ancient Mesopotamia, and was picked up by the Hebrew people. It derived from the view that women were property that could be bought and sold, and was a way of ensuring the legitimacy of children in a society with patrilinear hereditary. Or at least, an attempt at it. It wasn't terribly successful.

On 9/16/2023 at 1:52 AM, Rowan Amore said:

As far as this thread goes, we're hearing more women responding with what they encounter.  2 of my friends have told me quite often about how women come on to them and in a very aggressive way often getting verbally abusive if they decline.  

High expectations are seen on both sides.  It all depends on the individual.  

In 17 years of being in SL, I've had a woman come on to me inworld exactly once, and it wasn't aggressive at all. Once in 17 years - I guess short ginger dudes don't fall into that "top 20%".  🤣  My experience with using female avatars is the polar opposite of that.

And it was/is exactly the same in RL too. Pre-transition, I couldn't go anywhere without some bloke hitting on me, or at least trying to engage me in unwanted conversation. Post transition.... it's crickets. Nada.

2 hours ago, Randall Ahren said:

Nice guys are too shy to post in the forum. Anyone posting here is automatically disqualified as a nice guy. The best you can hope for are people who have succeeded with nice guys to post what nice guys seem to want.

This is rubbish. There are plenty of nice people, male and female, on this forum. There are also plenty, male and female, who aren't so nice. Just like there are in-world, and everywhere else.

 

[Theresa Tennyson]

15 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

This actually circles back to my original question, in a way.

What is it that makes men like that so prevalent that we see it mentioned time and time again, and the men that do it right, so to speak, so rare?

Have the good ones given up because of various (clearly debatable) stats? Do they not exist? Or is the expectation of "the correct time and place" unrealistic?

When you read certain news sources, you'll often find them describing things as "an out of control and unprecedented explosion of...", but when you go to look at actual numbers and statistics you discover that what they're describing aren't nearly as dramatic as they make it sound. Because if you want people to click, you play up the sensational outliers.

You need to click on a forum topic to read it.

15 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

Selective memory, you only remember the annoying ones and not the flattering ones you politely turned down?

Have you considered the possibility that you're only remembering the forum threads that talk about creepy men?

Edited September 17, 2023 by Theresa Tennyson

[Jaylinbridges]

I refuse to get sucked into this thread.  Listen to this old Steppenwolf song.

And here's the same song with beautiful photos (not allowed to be embedded here):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KInCRHOyoBI

 

Edited September 17, 2023 by Jaylinbridges

[Love Zhaoying]

I think we're missing the point that @Paul Hexem is trying so hard to make: Men are hopelessly stupid!

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

9 hours ago, Akane Nacht said:

I'll ask my question again with more detail: what do (nice polite) men want in SL? for example, in a music club or casual hangout place. 

Same thing anyone wants.  To be treated like a human - Conversation, debate, laughs, a kind word, silliness or seriousness, to be heard and seen for who they are, connection.  Many times they want someone to talk to that won't bring the weight of every negative experience or put them on the defensive. 

What do nice, polite men want?  Just like any other human of any gender, they want to be treated like individuals, not as a stereotype or lumped in whatever group we choose to assign them to.  

All it takes is entering a conversation without an agenda of our own and not assuming every IM is someone on a mission for SLex.  There are so many amazing people inworld if we give them a chance and let conversations unfold.

It's a difference in approach to SL.  I'd rather think to myself, "Let's see where this goes," than, "Oh gawd, another creepy person IMing me."

 

[Love Zhaoying]

16 minutes ago, Cinnamon Mistwood said:

It's a difference in approach to SL.  I'd rather think to myself, "Let's see where this goes," than, "Oh gawd, another creepy person IMing me."

That gives me an idea!

Rather than saying "Hello" or something innocuous that would be construed as "creepy", my idea is to say something as if you are either an NPC or a player "on a quest".  

For example:  "Excuse me traveler, do you know where I can find a Elvish Potion for Healing?", then it opens up the possibility of a confused one-sided RP conversation that could go absolutely anywhere.

ETA: My "on-topic" point is, if one approaches Second Life "outside of normal expectations", then it opens the possibility of negating any specific expectations. If "women" expect "men" to be a certain way, approach from a completely different context to help cancel out that expectation.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

3 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Excuse me traveler, do you know where I can find a Elvish Potion for Healing?", then it opens up the possibility of a confused one-sided RP conversation that could go absolutely anywhere.

I would take this approach and run with it to "see where it goes."  I'm not very good at RP myself, but I can certainly wave my hands in the air and perform a healing spell or rummage in my bag for a potion to play along with the fun.

 

[Casidy Silvercloud]

I think topics like this would honestly go better if both men and women didn't try to answer for one another. How the hell does a woman know what an individual, or collective group, of men want? The same can be said in reverse as well. 

Sure people can guess at some of the most basic things that people, generally, might desire or seek out, but that doesn't necessarily mean we're right. Individualism exists and as much as I enjoy being a woman, I'm still me, an individual, with varying degrees of complexity that won't ever all or even mostly be the same as another's. 

I can only say the things I want, the things I seek out, things that I enjoy or would enjoy. I can't speak for any other female, nor would I try. I also can't speak for males, primarily because I'm not one, but also because, I'm not those individuals either. Women who say what men want and men who say what women want are often more wrong than right, even if thy hit a few generalizations on the head. It makes it difficult to take things they say seriously in any other capacity when they think they can speak for others.

There is no "most women's expectations" list, nor is there a "most men's expectations list". Those things will vary as much as the individuals. Anyone that proclaims to have the answers for all, or even most, is lying through their teeth. Yes even those online "what women/men want" or "expectations" articles are, mostly, a load of horse poop.