Women's expectations: Unrealistic

[Paul Hexem]

Recently there was a thread about women experiencing creepy men, and it was rightly pointed out that the counterpoints, the issues men experience in the interactions, were a little off topic for it.

So in the context of dating and/or meeting other people, the question is, do men in SL experience the same issues as other online dating platforms?

We have stats that show that in other forms of online social interactions, women's expectations and standards are completely unrealistic. It makes the entire process of meeting women a totally skewed, uphill battle for most men. Does that carry over to SL or is it less prevalent here?

[Sid Nagy]

No idea. I not on the market ever, as I explained in the past. 

From what I read in other threads a lot of women have pretty generalizing thoughts about men.
I guess the same will be the case with men about women.
The saying 'women are from Venus and men are from Mars' must hold some truth.  No doubt about that.

What i do know is, that there are many different types of women, just like there are many different types of men.

Some types I like to be around with (from both sides) and some not so much. And that has very little to do with looks.
As a rule of thumb, I'm not really fond of extreme girly girl behavior and extreme macho men behavior.  Neither in RL as in SL.

 

I recon this will be a very short thread.
Most smart men will not want to burn their fingers on this one.
 

Edited September 15, 2023 by Sid Nagy
Almost Saturday again.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

I don't even know what women's expectations are in the real world, let alone the often rather pretend world of SL. Then of course, you've got massive cultural differences to account for, as well, being a large international platform. Most of the women I've met here were in Europe or elsewhere. I suppose it varies wildly.

Also, are you talking about relationships that stay in-world only? Those, at least in my own personal experience, are the norm here. In the past, I had a hell of a time actually getting men interested in dating out in the real world, but maybe that's just my own terrible luck. 😄 In my own case, I expected nothing since RL dating wasn't even on the table.

I have no idea what in-world expectations could even be - wearing certain body brands, purchasing only certain popular skins/hairstyles? Choosing Lelutka heads over competitors? Human vs. furry vs. elf avatars? What we talmbout, Willis?

I can tell you that some women's expectations of what other women here should look and dress like are completely out into orbit (everything from shapes to how much squish is required to be sufficiently feminine). But that's probably a whole other topic. 😂

[BillFletcher]

20 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

do men in SL experience the same issues as other online dating platforms?

Since SL is not an online dating platform I would think not. As for whether women's expectations are realistic, that is a complicated question. It should be obvious that not all women have realistic expectations, that isn't meant to be derogatory towards women, you can replace the word woman with, men, children, Americans, French, Short people, or whatever other category you might think of. Someone in that group is going to have unrealistic expectations about something. Since SL is not primarily a dating platform, not everyone you meet is going to be open to dating in the first place. I think there is a tendency for people to expect others to be like them. This can cause issues in RL but even more so in SL because the very nature of SL allows people to be so much more diverse. Any consideration of what women expect is going to be clouded by the fact that not everyone who presents as a woman in SL is in fact actually a woman. Guys with a woman's avatar are likely to behave in ways different than real women. I recently began a conversation with a woman and in her second comment she invited me to find a room in motel with her. I doubt very much that it was an actual RL woman who said that, though it is possible. To me the best way to approach SL is to not have many expectations at all, to just let things come as they come, and make the best of it.

[Shiloh Lyric]

What "stats that show that in other forms of online social interactions"? Also, how are you defining "unrealistic"? As far as looks? As far as economic status? As far as attire? As far as the way the woman expects to be treated? It's such a broad open-ended question you're asking that it's difficult to answer. I'm hoping you can be more specific or share the "stats".

[Paul Hexem]

6 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Also, are you talking about relationships that stay in-world only?

I'm talking about issues that would cause decent men to not bother greeting women, which is how we get threads like that other one.

Things like the percentage of women that expect men to initiate conversation, how 80% of men are rated as below average by women on most online social platforms, how women still expect men to be more accomplished than them despite (deserved) massively increased rates of educational and business successes.

All of these things factor into what sort of men are left hitting on women, and I wonder if they're as common in SL as other online platforms, or if women on SL are more reasonable due to it not being a dating platform, as was pointed out.

[Paul Hexem]

1 minute ago, Shiloh Lyric said:

What "stats that show that in other forms of online social interactions"? Also, how are you defining "unrealistic"? As far as looks? As far as economic status? As far as attire? As far as the way the woman expects to be treated? It's such a broad open-ended question you're asking that it's difficult to answer. I'm hoping you can be more specific or share the "stats".

A long list of links would take us off topic for SL I think. But an easy example is when dating sites release stats on how men and women rate each other. Men are rated as being "below average" 80% of the time, by women. Conversely men rate women on a bell curve which is mathematically what you'd expect "average" to mean.

As SL isn't a dating platform, is it safe from that kind of bias, you think?

[Sid Nagy]

One thing I really like is, that a lot of IMHO not real important things like age, gender and looks are not important on forums either.
The inner person shines through, especially of those you get to know on the long term in the forums, any forums.
In world ones appearance and being plastic fantastic are often more important, than the person behind the keyboard.

On the forums it is the other way around.
More genuine in the long term, most of the time IMHO.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, Paul Hexem said:

Recently there was a thread about women experiencing creepy men

"Real Life" women? 

Or "Real Life" men, pretending to be women, complaining about creepy men?

It's all so confusing.

 

[Ayashe Ninetails]

4 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

I'm talking about issues that would cause decent men to not bother greeting women, which is how we get threads like that other one.

Things like the percentage of women that expect men to initiate conversation, how 80% of men are rated as below average by women on most online social platforms, how women still expect men to be more accomplished than them despite (deserved) massively increased rates of educational and business successes.

All of these things factor into what sort of men are left hitting on women, and I wonder if they're as common in SL as other online platforms, or if women on SL are more reasonable due to it not being a dating platform, as was pointed out.

I don't know where those numbers come from, but 80% of anything feels a bit...off.

More on topic, the problem with getting actual answers to your questions, I think, is you're talking about make-believe avatars that half the time don't even look like real humans (browse a fashion event or two if you don't believe me lol) on a platform where RL tends to be a bit taboo to talk about openly (going by the number of profiles I've seen that scream SL ONLY NO RL). So the men and women you're referencing may not even be RL men or women, if that makes sense. We've got plenty of examples on this forum alone where people have talked about knowing someone who lied about who they are in the real world.

So given that - how would men be rated below average here? Based on what - their avatars? Profiles? There's certainly nothing RL related to base any expectations on until you really get to know somebody outside of the platform.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

So given that - how would men be rated below average here? Based on what - their avatars? Profiles? There's certainly nothing RL related to base any expectations on until you really get to know somebody outside of the platform.

Mathematically speaking, it's not possible for all men to be "below average" in any given population.

That's just...

Mean.

[Rowan Amore]

27 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

I'm talking about issues that would cause decent men to not bother greeting women, which is how we get threads like that other one.

My one and only expectation from men is that they don't assume anything but I think that should also work both ways.  Just because one person messages doesn't mean they are interested in anything more than a chat.  Just because someone responds to your message doesn't mean they're interested in more than a chat.  Even when I was engaging in adult activity in SL, just because I messaged someone didn't mean I was looking for a relationship or SLex.   Don't ASSUME anything regardless of where you might find someone either.  

[Ceka Cianci]

Honestly, who doesn't have high expectations or wants? It doesn't mean that's what people end up with..

I think online is a bit different in many ways.. It's not hard for many to get an ego and inflate themselves or have themselves inflated.. Think about what happens when a girls voice shows up on a game  or a chat with voice and or most places online and how much  inflating of an ego from that attention goes on after that..

Men have High expectations with their dream girls just like we have with our perfect man.. The odds of ending up with the expectations being met is pretty much really low for both men and women..

Honestly, I think social networks and medias have more people inflated than ever before..  There is so much of putting people into categories as well more than ever..

A lot seemed to have given up their mirrors for their phones.. hehehe

[Ayashe Ninetails]

1 minute ago, Ceka Cianci said:

Honestly, who doesn't have high expectations or wants? It doesn't mean that's what people end up with..

That's a good point, but what does that look like here? What would be considered a high expectation for SL?

That's what I'm confused about, I suppose. I prefer non-human avatars and am drawn to horror or dark fantasy appearances. Is that unreasonable? Am I the baddie? 

[Love Zhaoying]

4 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

That's a good point, but what does that look like here? What would be considered a high expectation for SL?

That's what I'm confused about, I suppose. I prefer non-human avatars and am drawn to horror or dark fantasy appearances. Is that unreasonable? Am I the baddie? 

I think for me, a "reasonable" expectation would be someone that can communicate well, behave consistently, and be able to respect boundaries (for instance, between Second Life and RL)

..whether they are a furry or not..

Unfortunately, that seems to be a "high expectation". 

For instance, if someone seems nice and all, but just can't seem to keep from asking personal RL questions..then they don't meet my expectation, whether that is "reasonable" or a "high expectation".

ETA: Being furry isn't a "free pass" to be bonkers.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[Paul Hexem]

21 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

I don't know where those numbers come from, but 80% of anything feels a bit...off.

So given that - how would men be rated below average here? Based on what - their avatars? Profiles? There's certainly nothing RL related to base any expectations on until you really get to know somebody outside of the platform.

80% is off. That's why it's called an unrealistic expectation.

You're asking a good question there about what the actual expectation is. It could be any of that, or women could expect that "80%" of men are confident and capable of approaching them while knowing exactly when it's appropriate. Although really it's less important than "do women do that here at all- have unrealistic expectations?"

 

18 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Mathematically speaking, it's not possible for all men to be "below average" in any given population.

Exactly why it's a problem.

 

4 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

Honestly, I think social networks and medias have more people inflated than ever before..  There is so much of putting people into categories as well more than ever..

A lot seemed to have given up their mirrors for their phones.. hehehe

There's actually a psychological term that I can't remember for when people have too many choices so they continue trying to get the best at the cost of a good option. A few analysts have applied it to modern online dating.

[Arielle Popstar]

I think one has to remember the 80/20 rule or something like it where the rule of thumb is that 80% of one gender is only interested in the top 20% of the other gender. This works both ways and makes it hard to determine what average means in that context. 

[Silent Mistwalker]

Thanks for the thread. Now I will know when, where and how to avoid all the jerks and sex pests.

[Love Zhaoying]

12 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

There's actually a psychological term that I can't remember for when people have too many choices so they continue trying to get the best at the cost of a good option. A few analysts have applied it to modern online dating.

https://thedecisionlab.com/reference-guide/economics/the-paradox-of-choice

Maybe "The paradox of choice"?

[Psyche Starling]

So there's a theory called the Pareto Principle, and it's where the 80/20 rhetoric comes from, but it was never meant to be about dating, nor was it ever meant to be applicable to all situations. It was originally about wealth being concentrated in a small number of rich people.

Additionally, the rhetoric that women rate most men below average comes from an old OkCupid study, and what people never mention is that, even if you pretend it's representative of the whole population, they additionally found that women (while they did rate men's profiles more harshly) still messaged people they rated below average, while men only messaged the most beautiful. Given how bad men's profiles were on OKCupid back when I was on it, I would guess the real takeaway is more like "I'll give you a chance IRL even though you took your profile pic in a grotty bathroom and can't spell."

Anyway, it's SL. Everyone is hot. It's just weird to jump into a stranger's IMs out of nowhere and either just go "hi" or jump straight into a sexual proposition. I don't really want to talk backchannel unless we've been talking in local for a few minutes first. Don't be weird.

[Arwyn Quandry]

I really hope you're not trying to say that men's expectations are totally reasonable and fine when places like /r/TrueRateMe exist. 

[Paul Hexem]

So there's a good example of unrealistic expectations. That all threads should be for complaining about the issues women have while dismissing the men's issues (or trying to take it off topic), even while there's already threads for that. 

So it does happen in SL, or at least on the SL forums, after all.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

10 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I think for me, a "reasonable" expectation would be someone that can communicate well, behave consistently, and be able to respect boundaries (for instance, between Second Life and RL)

..whether they are a furry or not..

Unfortunately, that seems to be a "high expectation". 

Is it, though? It sounds perfectly reasonable to me! Respecting boundaries and being willing to communicate seems kind of basic and necessary IMO. I can't see anyone finding fault with that.

 

8 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

You're asking a good question there about what the actual expectation is. It could be any of that, or women could expect that "80%" of men are confident and capable of approaching them while knowing exactly when it's appropriate. Although really it's less important than "do women do that here at all- have unrealistic expectations?"

As for the last question, if we're talking about unrealistic expectations being the behavior the aproachee considers appropriate (see above response to Love) and not just avatar appearances, then perhaps, but why is that unrealistic? Why wouldn't someone expect to be treated with respect, regardless of gender?

 

1 minute ago, BookishMelinoe said:

So there's a theory called the Pareto Principle, and it's where the 80/20 rhetoric comes from, but it was never meant to be about dating, nor was it ever meant to be applicable to all situations. It was originally about wealth being concentrated in a small number of rich people.

Additionally, the rhetoric that women rate most men below average comes from an old OkCupid study, and what people never mention is that, even if you pretend it's representative of the whole population, they additionally found that women (while they did rate men's profiles more harshly) still messaged people they rated below average, while men only messaged the most beautiful. Given how bad men's profiles were on OKCupid back when I was on it, I would guess the real takeaway is more like "I'll give you a chance IRL even though you took your profile pic in a grotty bathroom and can't spell."

Anyway, it's SL. Everyone is hot. It's just weird to jump into a stranger's IMs out of nowhere and either just go "hi" or jump straight into a sexual proposition. I don't really want to talk backchannel unless we've been talking in local for a few minutes first. Don't be weird.

Ahhhhh, why am I not surprised it's an OKCupid stat? LOL, I used to use that site/app back in the day and had quite a few dates from it, and omg, now it's starting to make sense. Yeah, I wouldn't put any faith into those numbers whatsoever knowing the source. That place was toxic as hell and there's a reason why I thought most dates might end in my demise (but being the sunny optimist I am, took the chance and went anyway, lol). I had less frightening experiences meeting guys in MMOs.

Knowing that, yeah, I'd say SL has very little at all to do with that. Male avatars here are nothing like those guys in my experience and are quite pleasant in comparison - even when using the good ole tried n true basic "hi" approach.

[Psyche Starling]

1 minute ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Ahhhhh, why am I not surprised it's an OKCupid stat? LOL, I used to use that site/app back in the day and had quite a few dates from it, and omg, now it's starting to make sense. Yeah, I wouldn't put any faith into those numbers whatsoever knowing the source. That place was toxic as hell and there's a reason why I thought most dates might end in my demise (but being the sunny optimist I am, took the chance and went anyway, lol). I had less frightening experiences meeting guys in MMOs.

Knowing that, yeah, I'd say SL has very little at all to do with that. Male avatars here are nothing like those guys in my experience and are quite pleasant in comparison - even when using the good ole tried n true basic "hi" approach.

It is, and it gets repeated all over Reddit on the daily by people who've never even looked at it, just heard about it secondhand and thirdhand and fourthhand. It's the telephone game of statistics, but there's a whole contingent of people who think it's real trufax and proves something about every woman in existence.

[Arwyn Quandry]

3 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

So there's a good example of unrealistic expectations. That all threads should be for complaining about the issues women have while dismissing the men's issues (or trying to take it off topic), even while there's already threads for that. 

So it does happen in SL, or at least on the SL forums, after all.

I refuse to take a thread about a highly charged issue made by someone with a troll face avatar as being in good faith. You're trying to stir the pot. This whole thing is going to get locked before the fifth page.