Is this new round of mentors a good idea?

[Sid Nagy]

33 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

What if the new user came because they have heard of the RLV functions available in other viewers and is attracted to such an activity? Why train them on a viewer that has no such ability?

IMHO nobody comes to a world like SL because of a feature in a viewer.
And if there really is one every now and then, it is very easy to point them out where to get that viewer and the support that comes along with it. But then the initiative comes from the new member, not from the moderator.

"Welcome to SL. First of all, you have the wrong viewer go and download .... first before I can help you", that is simply not the way it should be.
A math teacher that finds they can't teach using a certain schoolbook that a school uses, should not teaching math there either.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Sid Nagy

[Alwin Alcott]

5 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Why train them on a viewer that has no such ability?

i don't think it's needed first day welcome mentors teach rlv. 

[Arielle Popstar]

3 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

i don't think it's needed first day welcome mentors teach rlv. 

Are Mentors only about first day residents? Once a person is in a week, they no longer qualify for help from a Mentor?

[Marianne Little]

18 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Are Mentors only about first day residents? Once a person is in a week, they no longer qualify for help from a Mentor?

I heard nothing about the time mentors can use on them. People can also log in, stay 2 hours, log off 2 weeks and come back. They need more help.

So if mentors tell them about Firestorm day 2, day 3 or next week, is it forbidden? I think not.

I have the LL viewer on my computers, just in case. I shudder when I have to log in on it.

[Sid Nagy]

I don't think a mentor should be a personal assistant for days, weeks, months.
If they get someone managing to do the first real basic steps, the task is done.
Than, in my opinion, it is time for classes, support groups, friends, forums, newsletters, you tube channels, the wiki and what not.
And for the mentor, the next new 🐤to help.
 

Edited June 22, 2023 by Sid Nagy

[Marianne Little]

5 hours ago, Sid Nagy said:

The LL viewer will not chase away noobs. The FS viewer will not help them stay.
It is about the overwhelming number of things one has to master in a short time. That is the same in all viewers.

I think you are right in general, it is not about the viewer. But when the ducklings leave the safe pond, they will meet the world where Firestorm is "the" viewer, and soon experience that many can't help them besides the mentors.

So they should be told that there are 3party viewers, and that they need to say "I use the Linden viewer" if they ask for help to find a rug they lost under the floor or such thing. I belive it is some kind of search land in the LL viewer, but I would have to find out how... I have no clue. I would try my best to help while I pull out my hair.

If I was in the house next to them and they IM'd me to ask how they find the rug, I would start to talk about how I do area search in Firestorm, and we would run into problems. Because they can not find what I suggest for them.

I do not think I could help myself, and tell that I prefer Firestorm. But I would not say they "have" to get Firestorm.

Well, I am no mentor, so no problem with viewers.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Marianne Little
added a few words

[xDancingStarx]

3 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

I have the LL viewer on my computers, just in case.

Since the obligatory use of the official viewer has been questioned in this thread. Another problem is the following: you may need to show a newbie in detail how to access a certain setting or menu in the official viewer. In order to do this you have to see the official viewer in front of you. And if you're on Firestorm at this moment, you may be tempted to think.. okay I'll just quickly open the official viewer on an alt and check where this menu item is. But here you will run into the case where there official viewer had just been updated and you have no chance whatsoever to log in on it unless you update it, which requires any other open Viewers to close. And this really sucks

[Quartz Mole]

7 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

If I was in the house next to them and they IM'd me to ask how they find the rug, I would start to talk about how I do area search in Firestorm, and we would run into problems. Because they can not find what I suggest for them.

When residents of Bellisseria ask me that question I refer them to Build>Pathfinding>Region Objects.   Works in both the Official Viewer and Firestorm, and has the advantage that it shows only objects that you can return, which is generally what you need when you've lost something.

[Marianne Little]

8 minutes ago, Quartz Mole said:

When residents of Bellisseria ask me that question I refer them to Build>Pathfinding>Region Objects.   Works in both the Official Viewer and Firestorm, and has the advantage that it shows only objects that you can return, which is generally what you need when you've lost something.

When we locate an object, can we click on it and move it? For a rug, it would be moved up.

But I will not derail the thread more. I can try it, if I remember when I log in next time...

[Persephone Emerald]

1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

What if the new user came because they have heard of the RLV functions available in other viewers and is attracted to such an activity? Why train them on a viewer that has no such ability?

In the case when a new user asks about other viewers, then it would be useful for a mentor to discuss the pros and cons of using other Third Party Viewers. Otherwise, when a new user's default viewer is the Linden Lab viewer, they would be best served by the mentor having a firm understanding of that viewer, so they can answer the questions the user actually has about using it. Telling them they should use a different viewer would confuse them unnecessarily and dilute the Second Life brand. (Personally, I prefer Firestorm, but I can see why LL would want to promote their own viewer to new users.)

Edited June 22, 2023 by Persephone Emerald

[Quartz Mole]

12 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

When we locate an object, can we click on it and move it? For a rug, it would be moved up.

But I will not derail the thread more. I can try it, if I remember when I log in next time...

Since you raise the question, I'll answer it: yes -- find the object using Pathfinding>Region Objects, open the edit window (CTRL 3), and select your object in the Region Objects window.   Then you should be able to edit it (there are some distance restrictions that I can never remember, but if you're looking for stuff you've buried in a wall or under the floor you should be good).   Or you can use the buttons in the Region Objects window to take it back into your inventory, or return it to yourself, without needing the edit window.

But  you're right, let's try to stick to the mentorship programme rather than discussions about viewers.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Quartz Mole

[AlphaStud]

I think a mentor should have understanding of all viewers, if possible (not suggesting this as a requirement, but it would be a plus to be able to assist further if needed).

Each of them are fairly similar anyway, and it wouldn't be unlikely in my opinion that a new resident might have done prior research on viewers to appeal to their interests or be recommended (through friends, YouTube videos, etc.) to use something other than the default one before coming in-world.

I'm sure they have guidelines, though, on how to approach a situation where someone is asking for help using another viewer.

Edited June 22, 2023 by AlphaStud

[Innula Zenovka]

1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

What if the new user came because they have heard of the RLV functions available in other viewers and is attracted to such an activity? Why train them on a viewer that has no such ability?

If anyone asks me about RLV, I recommend either Catznip or Marine Kelly's Restrained Love, depending on their operating system (if they don't use Windows) and a couple of other considerations, since those are the reference viewers for RLV, give them a basic over-view, and  suggest they ask for further advice in the Open Collar group. 

Both Catznip and Marine's viewer have the same look and feel as the Official Viewer. 

 

Edited June 22, 2023 by Innula Zenovka

[Innula Zenovka]

15 minutes ago, AlphaStud said:

I think a mentor should have understanding of all viewers, if possible (not suggesting this as a requirement, but it would be a plus to be able to assist further if needed).

Each of them are fairly similar anyway, and it wouldn't be unlikely in my opinion that a new resident might have done prior research on viewers to appeal to their interests or be recommended (through friends, YouTube videos, etc.) to use something other than the default one before coming in-world.

I'm sure they have guidelines, though, on how to approach a situation where someone is asking for help using another viewer.

I'm reasonably familiar with both the Official Viewer and Firestorm, but there's no way, if someone asks me a question and I'm not logged in on that viewer at the time, I'd feel confident answering it without logging in an alt on the viewer in question just to be sure I'm telling them to look at the correct menu or submenu for whatever it is they need. 

[Coffee Pancake]

47 minutes ago, Quartz Mole said:

When residents of Bellisseria ask me that question I refer them to Build>Pathfinding>Region Objects.   Works in both the Official Viewer and Firestorm, and has the advantage that it shows only objects that you can return, which is generally what you need when you've lost something.

SCREAMS

Hi.

We (Catznip) put area search in our viewer using the path-finding data. Mainly because we didn't feel that firestorms brute force kick the crap out of the region approach was suitable. Seriously, now is your opportunity to go see exactly how FS area search works, and why that's horrifyingly bad.

So. an area search that meets the "ive lost something use case". Only that is never what people want. They want to cheat at hunts (and similar needle in someone else's haystack use cases .. like living on land you don't personally own .. like a belli home rolled with an GoH alt).

The need for an area search is big enough that people do just go right back to FS once they find we don't have that. This is a genuine FAQ in our support group.

We have been talking to Linden devs about their willingness to extend this data so that we could all have a complete area search that isn't "greifing with UI" for YEARS.

We explain how FS search works technically - they say "oh wow, that is very bad, yes, don't ever do that", and then "hrrrrrmmm" when offered an actual solution that needs an assist from LL.

So .. how about, in your unique position as a mole, mumble things like "hey, an actual area search built on the pathfinding data sure would be awesome".

Ta.

❤️

[Arielle Popstar]

4 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

I'm reasonably familiar with both the Official Viewer and Firestorm, but there's no way, if someone asks me a question and I'm not logged in on that viewer at the time, I'd feel confident answering it without logging in an alt on the viewer in question just to be sure I'm telling them to look at the correct menu or submenu for whatever it is they need. 

Maybe not but at the very least with the Firestorm viewer you can direct them to the Firestorm Group or their own viewer wiki at https://wiki.firestormviewer.org/start . These are options not available for other viewers including SecondLife's. Have to maybe direct them to contact @Quartz Mole for help in case of future issues

[Innula Zenovka]

5 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Maybe not but at the very least with the Firestorm viewer you can direct them to the Firestorm Group or their own viewer wiki at https://wiki.firestormviewer.org/start . These are options not available for other viewers including SecondLife's. Have to maybe direct them to contact @Quartz Mole for help in case of future issues

I was responding to AlphaStud's point that

Quote

I think a mentor should have understanding of all viewers, if possible (not suggesting this as a requirement, but it would be a plus to be able to assist further if needed).

Each of them are fairly similar anyway,

My point is that, while I have a reasonable understanding of both viewers, I certainly wouldn't try to answer questions about the UI of one viewer without being able to check my responses using the viewer in question.   

So if I were acting as a mentor on Firestorm Island I would make a point of logging in on Firestorm, because that's the viewer I would expect to be asked about, and , for the same reason, if I were acting as a mentor on LL's Welcome Hub, where new users will rez and where all the videos and other materials use the Official Viewer, I would log in using the Official Viewer.

In either case, if someone asks me a question about the other viewer I can always log in an alt on that viewer so I can check.

[AlphaStud]

2 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

I was responding to AlphaStud's point that

My point is that, while I have a reasonable understanding of both viewers, I certainly wouldn't try to answer questions about the UI of one viewer without being able to check my responses using the viewer in question.   

So if I were acting as a mentor on Firestorm Island I would make a point of logging in on Firestorm, because that's the viewer I would expect to be asked about, and , for the same reason, if I were acting as a mentor on LL's Welcome Hub, where new users will rez and where all the videos and other materials use the Official Viewer, I would log in using the Official Viewer.

In either case, if someone asks me a question about the other viewer I can always log in an alt on that viewer so I can check.

I understand your point. I think what @Arielle Popstar said would be the best course of action. By being familiar, at least, with the support options available to direct users to them for viewers. 

[Arielle Popstar]

15 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

So. an area search that meets the "ive lost something use case". Only that is never what people want. They want to cheat at hunts (and similar needle in someone else's haystack use cases .. like living on land you don't personally own .. like a belli home rolled with an GoH alt).

The need for an area search is big enough that people do just go right back to FS once they find we don't have that. This is a genuine FAQ in our support group.

Like yeah, no. I along with a slew of others don't do hunts. Just finding some Saturday sale items is enough of a hunt even with Area Search. Without it, I would like not even bother to look unless it is right there at the entrance. I swear some Store owners seem to think that putting out sale items should be a hunt so you pass by all the other items they have available. 

[Quartz Mole]

4 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Like yeah, no. I along with a slew of others don't do hunts. Just finding some Saturday sale items is enough of a hunt even with Area Search. Without it, I would like not even bother to look unless it is right there at the entrance. I swear some Store owners seem to think that putting out sale items should be a hunt so you pass by all the other items they have available. 

While I think a discussion about both the advantages of Region Search and  the objections to what @Coffee Pancakecalls "firestorms brute force kick the crap out of the region approach"  would be very valuable, I think it would better held in its own thread.

 

 

 

[Luna Bliss]

13 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I swear some Store owners seem to think that putting out sale items should be a hunt so you pass by all the other items they have available. 

The nerve of them!!!!!

[Silent Mistwalker]

7 hours ago, Sid Nagy said:

The LL viewer will not chase away noobs. The FS viewer will not help them stay.
It is about the overwhelming number of things one has to master in a short time. That is the same in all viewers.

Why does it have to be a short time? Shouldn't people take time to learn? Have you ever had a student learn all multiplication tables in one class session?

People need to find their patience and slow down instead of rushing through trying to learn everything all at once. (It can't be done.) I just had a refresher course in that with the new to me game I got off Steam about a month ago. The bright side for me though is I can replay the story and the adventure. There aren't any replays to SL (except maybe in games played within SL for those who want to nitpick).

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 hour ago, Innula Zenovka said:

If anyone asks me about RLV, I recommend either Catznip or Marine Kelly's Restrained Love, depending on their operating system (if they don't use Windows) and a couple of other considerations, since those are the reference viewers for RLV, give them a basic over-view, and  suggest they ask for further advice in the Open Collar group. 

Both Catznip and Marine's viewer have the same look and feel as the Official Viewer. 

 

It should be noted that the RLV in Firestorm is [strike]Marine's[/strike] Barnet's RLV.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Silent Mistwalker

[Innula Zenovka]

7 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

It should be noted that the RLV in Firestorm is Marine's RLV.

Are you sure about that?  Firestorm call what's in their viewer RLVa, which is what Kitty Barnet makes, and for which Catznip is the reference viewer.

[Silent Mistwalker]

7 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

Are you sure about that?  Firestorm call what's in their viewer RLVa, which is what Kitty Barnet makes, and for which Catznip is the reference viewer.

Thank you. I hate it when I'm thinking one thing and my fingers type something else. Corrected.