Infrastructure Investment Update: Buy/Sell Fee Change and Land Pricing Effective Mar 6, 2023 DISCUSSION

[Arielle Popstar]

2 hours ago, Sid Nagy said:

OS has no central stage, nor a central management, no central currency game tokens, no central protection against several things like illegal copying, bot spying and such. So not really interesting for creators to invest in their world.
Less content means less users.  It is as simple as that IMHO.

A lot of us grumble from time to time about LL, and yes a lot of things could have been handled better in the past and present, but all in all they have done a great job over the last 20 years with SL.

Opensimulator.org is the central management through the code changes they make. Gloebits are the game tokens used on a number of grids. S/L has no protection against copying either and it is easier in some cases as only the UUID is needed rather then the whole mesh/texture combination and SL is the place where it is ripped to begin with . Some opensimulator grids are just where some of the content is dumped in open view. Don't think that it isn't also in S/L itself.

In general the more reputable OS Grid admins will remove content even without a Dmca if it is obviously a copy. That is unlike S/L where a DMCA is mandatory before content and stores are taken down and why there are multiple MP stores out there selling cb content for months before they are removed. 

Less users means less content, not the other way around.

A lot of S/L is as a result of the users and creators in S/L as well of course as the Land Baron's who pay to keep it all going and in that regard I see S/L being a thing for 20 years in spite of the Lab, not because of it.

[Sid Nagy]

2 hours ago, Kylie Jaxxon said:

Not aimed at Sid, just a general observation....Don't quite get the disenchantment that some have with LL or SL over the years     You always have the option to quit.

People who aren't really involved with SL will do so: They say nothing and leave, no doubt about that.

But, people like me, who like SL and see the flaws, go often on the soap box in forums, not to harm SL or LL, but as a kind of advocate of the devil, in an attempt to get SL even better.  Everybody sees that there are flaws, so why not bring them up and discuss them?
Nothing wrong about that IMHO, particularly because SL has no real competition out there.
 

Edited March 17, 2023 by Sid Nagy
Englisn, as always.

[Love Zhaoying]

47 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

It's just a bunch of privately owned 'worlds' that are not connected together so, to use it as a home, you'd need to have your own separate sim and enjoy it on your own or with friends. People won't pass by as they wander around. They'd need to click something somewhere to even get to your sim

That sounds like Sansar..just saying..

[Love Zhaoying]

11 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

People who aren't really involved with SL will do so they say nothing and leave, no doubt about that.

But, people like me, who like SL and see the flaws, go often on the soap box in forums, not to harm SL or LL, but as a kind of advocate of the devil, in an attempt to get SL even better.  Everybody sees that there are flaws, so why not bring them up and discuss them?
Nothing wrong about that IMHO, particularly because SL has no real competition out there.

The thing people don't often notice is, anyone who complains, CARES enough to have an opinion and share it!

[Arielle Popstar]

1 hour ago, Kylie Jaxxon said:

Not aimed at Sid, just a general observation....Don't quite get the disenchantment that some have with LL or SL over the years     You always have the option to quit.

I've known multiple people from the past who have upped and quit closing their accounts. A number of them later regretted it. The smarter thing to do is to simply go elsewhere like Opensim and continue there for a time with occasional stops back in S/L to visit friends who may not have seen the light yet. The day may come and likely will that whatever upset one to leave will become a non issue in the future resulting in a return to S/L. My partner and I have taken multiple time outs from S/L only to return later or at least divide our time between the two platforms.

Edited March 17, 2023 by Arielle Popstar

[Chic Aeon]

6 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

When someone writes just "OS" here, how do we infer which they mean- OSGRID or OpenSim?

Well the "correct" answer would be the whole Opensim platform = that is anyone using opensim software to run their virtual grid.  BUT as you can see there is much confusion and the term is often used incorrectly.  Hence you  really can't know what someone MEANT unless you ask them to clarify.  

That's my feeling on it anyway.   

 

To make it even more confusing Inworldz (now gone) was one of the most popular grids for a long while. They used Opensim software BUT they also adapted it a lot - especially the mesh uploader.  So while it was often lumped in with the rest of the open sim grids "I" always considered it more of a separate entity. Kitely has done of lot of its own programming also and runs differently than the typical Opensim grids. BUT Kitely also hosts the market for the collection of grids that we currently think of as Opensim  -- so definitely a part while Inworldz was a closed grid (not part of the hypergrid) just a public grid.    

 

I lived and worked and sold in a handful of Opensim grids over the years including many that are no longer with us. Just so folks know there is some actual experience bases to this rambling   It was a lot of fun and I made a bit of money. The Great Canadian Grid was actually where I learned and practiced most of my mesh making skills since I didn't upload in SL for a long time after the TOS change of 2013.  

[Arielle Popstar]

What I use and see used is OSG=Osgrid.com , OS=OpenSim.org, OSW= OpenSimWorld.com

[Kylie Jaxxon]

39 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

People who aren't really involved with SL will do so they say nothing and leave, no doubt about that.

But, people like me, who like SL and see the flaws, go often on the soap box in forums, not to harm SL or LL, but as a kind of advocate of the devil, in an attempt to get SL even better.  Everybody sees that there are flaws, so why not bring them up and discuss them?
Nothing wrong about that IMHO, particularly because SL has no real competition out there.
 

I get that, but the thing is, LL has never backed down on a decision they've made (other than, I believe the group number for basic accounts.)  Some people here really get steamed about things, and is it really worth it, knowing it doesn't make a hill of beans difference to Linden Lab.

[Love Zhaoying]

8 minutes ago, Kylie Jaxxon said:

Some people here really get steamed about things, and is it really worth it, knowing it doesn't make a hill of beans difference to Linden Lab.

In general, people hate change.

Even if "one change adds a benefit" is balanced by "another change costs a bit more".  They'll focus on the "costs more" change, not the "benefit" change.  In truth / to be fair, there are cases where the "benefit" seems to benefit the "few", and the "cost" goes to the "many".  So, for some people that is a valid complaint - especially if they did not "benefit".

[Sid Nagy]

23 hours ago, Kylie Jaxxon said:

I get that, but the thing is, LL has never backed down on a decision they've made (other than, I believe the group number for basic accounts.)  Some people here really get steamed about things, and is it really worth it, knowing it doesn't make a hill of beans difference to Linden Lab.

In Dutch we have a proverb: "Nooit geschoten, altijd mis." 
If you don't shoot, you always miss (your target).  So something like: "Worth a shot, right?"

Edited March 18, 2023 by Sid Nagy
Improvements of the text. I blame my English again.

[Love Zhaoying]

17 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

In Dutch we have an adverb: "Nooit geschoten, altijd mis." 
If you don't shoot, you always miss (your target).  So something like: "Worth a shot, right?"

I think the English version is, "you miss every shot that you don't take". (Something like that.)  It's a relatively new expression, I think.

[Kylie Jaxxon]

24 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

In Dutch we have an adverb: "Nooit geschoten, altijd mis." 
If you don't shoot, you always miss (your target).  So something like: "Worth a shot, right?"

Lol, my Mom used to say..."even if you don't win, at least they know you've been there"

[Rolig Loon]

"Nothing ventured, nothing gained"  ^^

Or, more flippantly, "What could go wrong?"

[Istelathis]

11 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

It isn't a world like SL in that there are no land masses like the mainland here. It's just a bunch of privately owned 'worlds' that are not connected together so, to use it as a home, you'd need to have your own separate sim and enjoy it on your own or with friends

Yeah, that bothers me as well.  I love having huge continents to drive along, ride a train, hop in a yavascript pod, as well as sail in and around.  I've found a few nice longer roads in OS, I think the neveryear grid has some of the larger continents I've seen that are fun to drive around but it is nowhere as large as SL.  With NeverYear you can host your own region for free and connect to them, but there is a ton of piracy there so having a store would almost be useless 🤣  I've seen a few projects made by owners of multiple regions, that have made longer roadways that would span on for several regions, but still nothing like SL, the mainland is where I find my best driving experience that I enjoy even more than GTA or cyberpunk at times because it is constantly changing and there are so many people developing their land that I always find something new while exploring.

One problem I have with Kitely, is that they will shutdown most regions that are not occupied so even having such a huge mainland would be nearly pointless as their servers would have to initialize them even if there were an attempt to make such a project by multiple residents there.  

I had a 2x2 region there for a few months, and liked it, but I also wanted to run a farm which I believe OSW offers for free, unfortunately having a farm in a region that shuts down would result in dead crops and farm animals when I would get back to it.  Normally, there would be an NPC that would wander around my farm watering the crops, tending to them, feeding my animals and watering them as well.  Having the region shutdown would leave a neglected farm, which was no good at all.  After a while I decided to just setup a grid on my own spare laptop and that worked a lot better for my needs and was a fun project.  Best of all it was free, and I could go out exploring the hypergrid when I wanted to get out of my own area.

A lot of OS are grids that have just a few regions connected together, sometimes with a few roads to drive around, or paths to ride a horse around.  It is unfortunate that there is nothing like SL, but that is just one of the costs LL puts forward to give us all huge continents.  If I were to hazard a guess, also a contributing factor toward why region costs are kind of expensive as well, a lot of the mainland remains vacant and has servers chugging along keeping them all open for us.  

 

Edited March 18, 2023 by Istelathis

[PheebyKatz]

13 hours ago, Kylie Jaxxon said:

Not aimed at Sid, just a general observation....Don't quite get the disenchantment that some have with LL or SL over the years     You always have the option to quit.

I've come very recently to realize (or maybe just remember) what it is. It comes from a good place, regardless of how we tend to manifest it.

The spirit that drives all creative endeavors, drives the whole development of everything, is a deep-seated dissatisfaction with things as they are. Without this artistic drive to make things into something else, we'd all be contentedly wagging our tails in the primordial mud, I think. Second Life is, in my opinion, anyway, the best thing going for a person like me. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way.

It gives me the control I seek over my creative space, at least more than I've ever found anywhere else. I will never voluntarily leave this platform, as it's the only one I even bother with anymore. This is it~! \o/ And yet, even I complain about the things I would change, because as enjoyable as it all is, it could still be BETTER~! And I can't make it that way myself. And the people who might be able to make the changes I would make if it was all mine, well, they do it all their way, cos it's theirs. I just get to play with it.

I realize now why so many people kvetch about LL. It's because the people who make the servers happen and coded it all and keep it running are also the final layer between Residents and the true creative virtual godhood we seek. They are as necessary as anyone else in all of this, and being that layer between us and godly powers is a necessary thing too, to a great extent, for the sake of the whole grid. 

Some of the most genius people here are also some of the loudest complainers. I think as long as we all realize where it really comes from, it's not such a toxic thing after all. If clamoring at the gates doesn't accomplish anything, well, it still beats sitting around frustrated. There IS a lot of room for improvement. It DOES take longer than people wished it did.

It's not LL's fault. It's not Sid's fault, or anyone else's. It's simply the combined voice of a multitude of tortured artists, striving to manifest perfection. And maybe even change the whole "game" in the process, and do what nobody could before. Like make a universe where geeks rule, and can be successful and happy.

Such beautiful music, it calls to me, too.

Edit: And yeah, dont expect to join SL and suddenly have money and quit your day job. But people have done it before, and other people really want to, also. So yeah, things that get in the way of manifesting a magical livelihood out of pixel land, I'd prolly miss and poan too. It's normal. And there's real people's real money involved.

Edited March 18, 2023 by PheebyKatz

[Phil Deakins]

8 hours ago, PheebyKatz said:

Edit: And yeah, dont expect to join SL and suddenly have money and quit your day job. But people have done it before, and other people really want to, also.

I did it, but it was much easier back then - 2007 on. Even then, I would never have relied on it as an ongoing RL livelihood, simply because anyone could easily compete and I'd be pushed aside. Nevertheless, it can still be done, and is being done but, for an RL livelihood, it would need much more ongoing effort than I ever needed, and it still couldn't be relied upon as an ongoing future. It would probably need to be treated as an actual job, which I'm sure a few people do.

[PheebyKatz]

18 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I think the English version is, "you miss every shot that you don't take". (Something like that.)  It's a relatively new expression, I think.

Wayne Gretzgy said it. Hockey Guy.

[Phil Deakins]

@Istelathis

Thank you for your very interesting post.

We seem to be of the same overall opinion regarding OpenSim grids. I spent yesterday looking much more closely at another 2 - OSGrid (one of the highest active populations, though only a few thousand uniques in the month) and ZetaWorlds (one with a very small active population). I found a few people at OSGrid but they were in the default landing place. They hang around there. One offered me help, which I accepted and was grateful for.

Both of those grids have nothing that compares to our mainland. They are like a very small part of the non-mainland SL, and I imagine all the other grids are the same. For land, I found free parcels, very cheap sims and multiple sims (just a few dollars/mnth), and I think it's free to link a grid  that exists on your own computer.

My overall view is that they want us far more than we want them, but I can't see anything there that could qualify as a business venture. It's only for a pleasant hobby. If I could get OpenSim working in a Raspberry Pi, I would add at least one sim to one of the grids, and probably a block of 4 sims, just for the sake of it. Grid-hopping is part of it so having land in one grid means it can be TPed to from the others too.

Note:
I have a Raspberry Pi online 24/7 as a small webserver, and I know that OpenSim can run in a Raspberry Pi, so I'll probably persevere a bit with that. I'm not going to run a larger computer 24/7 just for the sake of having a few online sims that can't make any money.

[Ceka Cianci]

On 3/17/2023 at 10:25 AM, Love Zhaoying said:

I think the English version is, "you miss every shot that you don't take". (Something like that.)  It's a relatively new expression, I think.

The American version is, Murika F yea! \o/

[Love Zhaoying]

19 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

The American version is, Murika F yea! \o/

"But you know, the British invented shooting people. And only they do it correctly."

[Rowan Amore]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

"But you know, the British invented shooting people. And only they do it correctly."

They invented everything is the way I hear it.  😂

[Love Zhaoying]

41 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

They invented everything is the way I hear it.  😂

Including whatever floats your..house!

[Sid Nagy]

On 3/18/2023 at 11:29 PM, Rowan Amore said:

They invented everything is the way I hear it.  😂

Not everything. Al Gore invented the Internet, right?

[Ingrid Ingersoll]

On 3/6/2023 at 3:26 PM, Coffee Pancake said:

And there goes the economy.

 

edited because of my lack of reading comprehension

Edited March 20, 2023 by Ingrid Ingersoll

[Ingrid Ingersoll]

On 3/9/2023 at 12:45 PM, Sid Nagy said:

 

LL found a bucket of gold when they created SL, but they treat it as if it is a bucket that can't get empty because it fills up by itself automatically. And the last 20 years it somehow did.

☝️

 

Welcome back Sid!