Open letter to Linden Lab: Enforcing policies?

[Sammy Huntsman]

2 minutes ago, Jennifer Boyle said:

I have always considered my profile to be public, and, therefore, have not put any information into it that I would not want to be public.

I do the exact same thing. I tend to not overshare things on my profile, I used to. But then I learned how stupid it was and changed my thinking. 

 

[Ags Falconer]

8 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

And now I'm wondering if a general resurgence of fear and loathing of bots is going to lead to a more general return to 0 second warnings on security orbs. I await a new thread on that subject!

Paranoia runs deep.

I can see it too. 

Here's my prompt to DALL-E:  

"In the style of Salvadore Dali, paint a battlefield in SecondLife where security bots are revolting against the avatars."

😉

[Arielle Popstar]

Just now, Sammy Huntsman said:

I do the exact same thing. I tend to not overshare things on my profile, I used to. But then I learned how stupid it was and changed my thinking. 

 

As an avid profile card reader, I would say that some who think they are not oversharing info actually share more than 95% of the other residents out there and are only missing their street address.

In any case it is not just about locating someone but also profiling them where potential issues come into play. From that perspective a site like the BB one is a potential threat in the wrong hands.  

[Sammy Huntsman]

1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

In any case it is not just about locating someone but also profiling them where potential issues come into play. From that perspective a site like the BB one is a potential threat in the wrong hands.  

How is it a potential threat in the wrong hands? I mean you could say the same about actual people who avidly read profiles in SL. And you can also profile people using their actual profiles in world. So again, how is it a threat? It would be more of a threat if this site published private info, like personal address legal name etc etc. 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

20 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

I do the exact same thing. I tend to not overshare things on my profile, I used to. But then I learned how stupid it was and changed my thinking. 

 

Remind me, Sammy . . . what country are you from again?

I think it might be worth remembering that some of us have in-world lives and reputations that are important to us. Not all of us treat our avatars and accounts as throw-aways.

I've spent over 14 establishing myself in Second Life in all sorts of ways. My identity as "Scylla Rhiadra" is not as meaningful in most regards as my RL one, but it is not insignificant to me either. And if bots are gathering information that might conceivably lead to me being banned from certain places or stores, result in in-world harassment, or deluge me in "targeted" advertising . . . well, yeah. that's going to impact on me.

7 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

How is it a potential threat in the wrong hands? I mean you could say the same about actual people who avidly read profiles in SL. And you can also profile people using their actual profiles in world. So again, how is it a threat? It would be more of a threat if this site published private info, like personal address legal name etc etc. 

Please try to remember that we are not talking about one person wandering around getting screenshots of profiles. This is about 10s of thousands of profiles that can potentially be cross-referenced, aggregated, etc. We're also talking about things like sales figures. Want to know how much money Blueberry made over the last two weeks? It's there . . . on the site.

Edited January 24, 2023 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 hour ago, Coffee Pancake said:

People have been explicitly poked about getting consent when making chat relays to external services, it might be "fine" now, but there was a time when it was very much not fine.

 I noticed you didn't mention how long ago it was and that it was another one of those things that residents fought for.

What reason would anyone have to relay chat that occurs inside of SL outside of SL? What purpose other than something "nefarious" would it serve? I never heard of that happening. Am I misunderstanding you? Could you be talking about something that affected only a small portion of the grid? A few hundred people out of several thousand?

Could be I'm just too tired at the moment to wrap my brain around your post. My eyes are starting to burn.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

This would be a good place to ask questions about all of this.

January 25th, 12pm SLT. Sadly, I can't make it then, but others perhaps can.

Courtesy of @Prokofy Neva

https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Concierge_%26_Land_User_Group

[Dorientje Woller]

6 hours ago, Tommy Linden said:

If however you put that type of public information in your profile, that is a choice that you are making.

Good, understandable. But why on earth is Linden Lab giving the temptation to users to add "Real Life"/"Personal" information in the profile (see pic below). Wouldn't it be better to remove that "tab", at least place a serious warning in that tab that this information might be end up on exterior websites or make sure that scripts can not access this tab?

 

[AzureWaves]

3 hours ago, Casper Warden said:

FWIW I can confirm that the L$ values listed under "Marketplace" / "Top Merchants" have no basis in reality

(Opinions expressed in this reply are solely mine and are not endorsed by or related to Linden in any way).

You have no way of knowing this, unless you're using your Casper Linden privileges to "know" this. Then you're being unprofessional. Not everyone uses Casper.

[Alwin Alcott]

Perhaps some kind of solution ..

ALL bot info harvesting owners, have to agree to a opt out list that can be joined by every resident on their accountpage.

But only by bot owners. Users with multiple alts are not a problem in this matter.

Traffic gaming is a thing, and causing issues at mainland. At private regions the owners have a job to do.
Many people simply moved for botfarms or afk gaming. This should not be a issue. Report and investigate, and act fast (LL job).

Everybody has a job to do in this.
Residents, use the tools provided already.

 

 

Edited January 24, 2023 by Alwin Alcott

[Sid Nagy]

8 hours ago, CaithLynnSayes said:

And how would you like LL to enforce this? It's information you've made public.

Did I make the statement that my payment info is on file public?
Can I prevent that from being harvested and put on a free accessible third party website?
It is further useless and harmless information to harvest, only to put it out there to show what their bots are capable off? 
IMHO It is making hackers work easier.
What accounts to attack with a chance to walk away with some cash....

I can't control that info is made public and can be spread around.
LL could give it a go (pointing to their policies).
 

Edited January 24, 2023 by Sid Nagy

[CaithLynnSayes]

2 hours ago, Dorientje Woller said:

Good, understandable. But why on earth is Linden Lab giving the temptation to users to add "Real Life"/"Personal" information in the profile (see pic below). Wouldn't it be better to remove that "tab", at least place a serious warning in that tab that this information might be end up on exterior websites or make sure that scripts can not access this tab?

 

Nobody is forcing you to put anything about your real life person in the "real life" tab and if someone needs a warning about putting real life information in that tab, then that someone should not be on the internet.

There is this saying: "The internet never forgets."

Edited January 24, 2023 by CaithLynnSayes

[Maitimo]

10 hours ago, CaithLynnSayes said:

Finally someone says it. I've been watching 3 threads on this and here it is. This is why LL has closed the previous threads and most likely will close this one too in the next 10 minutes. (before deleting my post, obviously, lol)

 

I said it in a different thread yesterday. It got a lot of laugh reactions, but it's the honest truth. My 90% might be off, but the principle is true. Linden Lab will never ban bots, nor will they ever enfore their rules about them, because it will reduce concurrency too much.

 

[belindacarson]

If people are daft enough to post real life information on their second Life profiles, no sympathy for them.

 

If you're worried about your email address just make one in your avatars name, it's not rocket science.

[Dorientje Woller]

11 minutes ago, CaithLynnSayes said:

Nobody is forcing you to put anything about your real life person in the "real life" tab and if someone needs a warning about putting real life information in that tab, then that someone should not be on the internet.

There is this saying: "The internet never forgets."

You, I, and most users are aware of that ... but I know tons of people who are, still to this point of the internet age, are so oblivious of the dangers of the net, even not knowing how a computer and the net works, so they are barely able to do a basic websearch. And it's not about forcing, it's about the temptation to put something in there.

Edited January 24, 2023 by Dorientje Woller

[CaithLynnSayes]

Just now, Dorientje Woller said:

You, I, and most users are aware of that ... but I know tons of people who are, still to this point of the internet age, are so oblivious of the dangers of the net, even not knowing how a computer and the net works, so they are barely able to do a basic websearch. 

@Dorientje Woller You can not expect (LL, in this case) to babysit or educate ignorant people on the "dangers" of the internet. I sort of see your concern but you are advocating for the impossible here i'm afraid.

[Dorientje Woller]

2 minutes ago, CaithLynnSayes said:

@Dorientje Woller You can not expect (LL, in this case) to babysit or educate ignorant people on the "dangers" of the internet. I sort of see your concern but you are advocating for the impossible here i'm afraid.

Failed to read the edited section, while you were replying, I guess. It's not about Linden Lab or anyone else forcing the user to do something they don't want to. It's about the temptation that is been offered by Linden Labs. If you, as a company, don't want that your users are sharing their personal/real life data to the public, simply don't offer them the ability to do so either, instead of relying on the good/sensible will of the users. There will always be people foolish enough to give into the temptation. And as far as I understand the TOS, it seems to me that Linden Labs has taken upon theirselves to protect personal data (which includes real life information), so yes, I still wonder then why they allow people to place their personal/real life into the profiles.

 

And for god sake, stop using the word "enforcing". We are users of a product, not a free undiscovered country, called Second Life, created by Linden Labs. If they decide to remove that tab, to ensure that your personal/real life data is protected, aka enforcing it, would it change your experience of/in second life?

[Maitimo]

6 hours ago, Casper Warden said:

From what I can see, the bots are not collecting any information which is not publicly available, however, I can completely understand that residents may not want their avatar profile information published on the web - which appears to be the only transgression.

The main transgression is that it is (or at least was) publishing content that some users have opted to share with friends only. The catch here, is that not many people know that this option only refers to the web profile, which is now obsolete anyway. So there are many people who believe, erroneously, that their profiles are still protected when they are not.

The info on the Bs website also includes Premium status which is absolutely NOT public on any profile inworld. Inworld profiles show "payment info used" but do not differentiate between Premuim users and Basic users who have used payment info for other things.

In any case it appears to be moot now anyway, since the Bs website has taken all the avatar profiles down.

[CaithLynnSayes]

6 minutes ago, Dorientje Woller said:

If you, as a company, don't want that your users are sharing their personal/real life data to the public, simply don't offer them the ability to do so either

LL does not 'not want' users to put their PII out there, the option to do so is there. Heck, the option to do so is everywhere. I can in this very post tell you exactly who i am, where i live and even upload a picture of me. Are you now going to advocate to close down the forums? I can tell someone in local chat or group chat exactly who i am. You wanna shut down inworld chat now?

Not trying to belittle you at all but you have to be reasonable. The option is there, doesn't mean you have to. And besides, i'm going to turn 10 in SL next month. I am curious as heck and check out a lot of profiles when i'm just passively reading along inworld group chats or here on the forums. Not one single time have i ever run into a profile that shared personal information apart from the occasional real life pic.

Again, i sort of see your point but i completely disagree with it. Even if LL eventually decides to do away with the 'real life' tab on profiles, people who actually want that info to be out there (keyword WANT), will put it on there.

Trying to get rid of an option on the profile because of "less intelligent/educated" people is a potential for people to yet again dunk on LL for doing away with a function of it's service. Slippery slope.

The key to take away here really is that not too many people actually share real life info, so i really don't see the point. I have stated this and Tommy shortly after did as well. What you put on your profile is potentially going to be seen by a lot of people because you've chosen to share that info.

On the flip side of all this, i do see the concern of this info taken to third party websites by bots but I've already said many times now that none of you can expect LL to police the rest of the internet. That's just not how the internet works. The point i can understand is why LL allows bots to read profile content.

 

We can go back and forth on this till the cows come home. I will keep repeating till the rist of spamming that what you willingly put out there is out there for anyone to see. If you say you know "tons of people" that don't see the potential danger in this, then perhaps you may educate them on this matter but downright prohibiting it isn't the way to go about it.

[Love Zhaoying]

Idea: option to "block/ignore all objects by owner or creator". Block/Ignore one, you've blocked / ignored them all. The question is, how can this be extended to Registered Agents "owned" by a specific user/group?

I'd vote for that feature!!

ETA: Yes, they could still see you, etc. But they'd be gone from your sight.

Edited January 24, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[Casper Warden]

3 hours ago, AzureWaves said:

You have no way of knowing this

I'm still operating CasperTech. I know what our income is. CasperTech is one of the businesses listed there. 

[Dorientje Woller]

33 minutes ago, CaithLynnSayes said:

LL does not 'not want' users to put their PII out there, the option to do so is there. Heck, the option to do so is everywhere. I can in this very post tell you exactly who i am, where i live and even upload a picture of me. Are you now going to advocate to close down the forums? I can tell someone in local chat or group chat exactly who i am. You wanna shut down inworld chat now?

Not trying to belittle you at all but you have to be reasonable. The option is there, doesn't mean you have to. And besides, i'm going to turn 10 in SL next month. I am curious as heck and check out a lot of profiles when i'm just passively reading along inworld group chats or here on the forums. Not one single time have i ever run into a profile that shared personal information apart from the occasional real life pic.

Again, i sort of see your point but i completely disagree with it. Even if LL eventually decides to do away with the 'real life' tab on profiles, people who actually want that info to be out there (keyword WANT), will put it on there.

Trying to get rid of an option on the profile because of "less intelligent/educated" people is a potential for people to yet again dunk on LL for doing away with a function of it's service. Slippery slope.

The key to take away here really is that not too many people actually share real life info, so i really don't see the point. I have stated this and Tommy shortly after did as well. What you put on your profile is potentially going to be seen by a lot of people because you've chosen to share that info.

On the flip side of all this, i do see the concern of this info taken to third party websites by bots but I've already said many times now that none of you can expect LL to police the rest of the internet. That's just not how the internet works. The point i can understand is why LL allows bots to read profile content.

 

We can go back and forth on this till the cows come home. I will keep repeating till the rist of spamming that what you willingly put out there is out there for anyone to see. If you say you know "tons of people" that don't see the potential danger in this, then perhaps you may educate them on this matter but downright prohibiting it isn't the way to go about it.

Key word I used was responsibility: one of the definitions according the Cambridge Dictionary is ... "a duty to take care of something". So, we can assume that taking all steps possible to prevent of something to happen, falls under responsibility.

[Love Zhaoying]

Idea: Have an LL employee contact all Bot operators and inquire innocently, "Can I use your product to help increase my traffic?" Then, ban/fine/suspend those who say "yes" until their business practices change.

 

[CaithLynnSayes]

10 minutes ago, Dorientje Woller said:

Key word I used was responsibility: one of the definitions according the Cambridge Dictionary is ... "a duty to take care of something". So, we can assume that taking all steps possible to prevent of something to happen, falls under responsibility.

I'm assuming you mean that LL is responsible. In that case i can throw it right back at the user. They should also be responsible for what they put out there...

49 minutes ago, CaithLynnSayes said:

We can go back and forth on this till the cows come home.

I will leave it at that because i don't want LL to use this as an excuse in closing this thread. So far i am very proud of them for letting this go on over 24 hours now.  

Edited January 24, 2023 by CaithLynnSayes

[Sid Nagy]

1 hour ago, Maitimo said:

In any case it appears to be moot now anyway, since the Bs website has taken all the avatar profiles down.

That is very good news indeed.
That was totally unneeded public information spread on the internet.

Edited January 24, 2023 by Sid Nagy