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Even ignoring that there are ways of copying mesh/prim objects that are undetectable, inspecting a modifiable mesh object will not tell anyone anything about that object that they can use to replicate or "counterfeit" it.  Scripts are different and nobody puts in modifiable scripts on a commercial product.  However most people just want the object to be modifiable so that they can adjust materials, re-texture, tint, etc. and in these discussions are not expecting scripts to be modifiable as well.

If any creator believes that no-mod protects anything, then they are likely to be taken in by all kinds of SL scams too.
 

Edited by Gabriele Graves
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16 minutes ago, Gilliana Parx said:

Would it be fair to ask who the creator was? Not to shun them, im mostly interested if its a redemption arc...

No, it wouldn't. I value my account and my own rep, what there is of it. Sorry. It's against the rules to do that, as far as I can tell.

I don't even mention someone's name if they tick me off on the forum, I just let people figure out who it is from context. Naming people out loud in connection with anything bad is a sure-fire way to get your post edited by a mod/Mole, or get a warning, at the very least.

I'm sure you could find out on your own, if you felt like it. I just can't name-drop in here. Wouldn't be right.

I mean, if we could, the forums would be full of people assassinating each other's characters for ticking them off inworld, etc., as people try to do on occasion. The forum staff really don't need that much drama bulldooky, they have enough to deal with as it is.

Edited by PheebyKatz
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35 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Even ignoring that there are ways of copying mesh/prim objects that are undetectable, inspecting a modifiable mesh object will not tell anyone anything about that object that they can use to replicate or "counterfeit" it.  Scripts are different and nobody puts in modifiable scripts on a commercial product.  However most people just want the object to be modifiable so that they can adjust materials, re-texture, tint, etc. or in these discussions are not expecting scripts to be modifiable as well.

If any creator believes that no-mod protects anything, then they are likely to be taken in by all kinds of SL scams too.
 

There were and probably more today, so many that never took the time to really even understand how it works.. They were easy to spot out back then because of the protection  they had in their stores..

I don't even think they had to be in the same sim, just in cam range to steal a whole sim's contents. It's been awhile, but I remember, they could stand right next to you and change right into an exact copy of your avatar or copy everything in the sim no matter what protections things had on it.

Edited by Ceka Cianci
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3 hours ago, Charalyne Blackwood said:

"no mod" in SL prevents counterfeiting and protects the creator's ownership of the design. 

No it doesn't in reality, your statement could mislead people.   New or uninformed creators end up missing out on many sales as they think no mod is some sort of ownership protection.   They should be fully aware of copyright laws and how to protect their designs external to Second Life, so they can enforce if needed.  No mod does nothing in relationship to "ownership".  

The only user case when they is actually true are elements like scripts where they are server side (if you mean to stop copying contents). 

To OP

Home & Decor people will always be mod if they want volume of sales.  
Some scripts in Home & Decor may not be mod e.g. for Huds purely as they are third party items. 
It is always worth asking the creator if they will do a mod version and a polite discussion.   It may be an old item, a new creator or somebody not understanding the commercial benefits of providing mod items to their customers.

Fashion people (generally) will go no mod (I don't agree with it) if there are fatpacks etc - the rationale from some I have heard directly from is they don't want people tinting a white item (huge generalisation here) to lose out on sales. 

Honestly you can normally find things very similar in Second Life if one creator isn't meeting your direct needs that will have the perms you would like.

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5 hours ago, Gilliana Parx said:

I already realized that there is a MASSIVE spike in self-importance with many creators, even tho their creative energy begins and ends with what was in a fashion magazine six months ago, but isn't it just a matter of basic decency to let your customer know what exactly they are buying?

Creators should list permissions and I prefer mod stuff, but I'm never going to agree that all creators produce worthless uncreative junk that anyone could make. If it was that quick and easy, you'd make everything you need and never need to buy anything. Taking out your upset on all creators, including the ones doing exactly what you wanted, is not going to improve anything.

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Just as OP states that she deems certain actions by a business owner as 'creator arrogance", i can flip the scales and say that projecting your way of thinking on a creator in an effort to making then conform to your satisfaction, is "consumer arrogance"

A creator has no obligation to conform to anyone. If a consumer does not like the way a creator conducts their business, they can respond by not buying from them. But the constant complaining about the "Mod/No Mod" issue and now the way a creator states or does not state permissions on a product is just whining. 

Don't like a creator? Move on with your day and don't buy from them.

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1 hour ago, Jules Catlyn said:

A creator has no obligation to conform to anyone. If a consumer does not like the way a creator conducts their business, they can respond by not buying from them. But the constant complaining about the "Mod/No Mod" issue and now the way a creator states or does not state permissions on a product is just whining. 

Don't like a creator? Move on with your day and don't buy from them.

I think it is good to call out the sort of shady business practices that some creators indulge in to dupe their customers, as it will hopefully send a message to newer people that not all that glitters is gold and that caveat emptor is more relevant in S/L than in the real world. In the real world at least those businesses that play the line too close get called out for it whereas in S/L they are a protected class that at the end of the day hurts old and new customers alike as well as the legitimate creators and developers who do their best for their customers. 

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Yes people have the right to run their businesses however they please even if they decide to engage in shady practices and/or be indifferent or outright hostile to their customers.  They shouldn't be surprised though if their reputation and sales plummet as people discuss what they don't like about such businesses.

2 hours ago, Jules Catlyn said:

But the constant complaining about the "Mod/No Mod" issue and now the way a creator states or does not state permissions on a product is just whining.

No, it isn't whining for people to discuss what they don't like about the way a business conducts itself.  Thank you for revealing how you think of customers in general.

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10 hours ago, Gilliana Parx said:

What is your view on this? am i the only one seeing it this way?

I haven't had any problems. If the item listing is unclear about whether it is mod, and mod is a dealbreaker for me, then I don't buy it. Or I look up the maker and ask them.

Creators don't owe us anything here...they make stuff and decide to share it or not as they choose. As a consumer, I'm grateful people take time to make cool stuff for my entertainment. 

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4 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Thank you for revealing how you think of customers in general.

Those who genuinely know me and the way i conduct business, know how i "think about my customers". I have a well established business and will go the extra mile for my customers. I also work for other people in-world and provide service and support for their businesses. Just because my opinion differs from yours and others and i am not afraid to voice it, does not mean my own business practices fall under the category of "shady".  I do listen to my customers and always will. I am just getting tired of people always ganging up on creators and their decisions like we are the evil ones. We are people, we make mistakes, we learn every day. But the way some people think they need to call us out is ridiculous. Yes, there are shady business people in SL. There always have been and always will be. I am just done with the constant creator bashing. 

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14 hours ago, Gilliana Parx said:

I know, a bit of a rude title, but i did not know how else to put it. 

In the recent... one or two years in SL of the 14 I am apparently in here, i noticed that an absurd high number of creators not only sell their items No Modify (which i in itself find absolutely stupid) but - which i find far worse - refuse to list the permissions of the items they sell anywhere on the package. And while im sitting here since half an hour, trying to find out if a certain item is modify, i am also at the same time wondering...

Why the heck are we okay with this?

I already realized that there is a MASSIVE spike in self-importance with many creators, even tho their creative energy begins and ends with what was in a fashion magazine six months ago, but isn't it just a matter of basic decency to let your customer know what exactly they are buying? I don't agree to no mod and you might see that differently. Okay, fine! But can i at least be informed about the specifics of the stuff i put money in for, thank you very much?

I don't see any kind of movement against this, even tho everyone should be angry at that. In fact, it should be against the rules. In reality thats what we would call "buying a pig in a poke". And by now it seems to be a vast majority of clothing and accessoires related items for those big bodies that just don't tell you.

I want to mod my stuff. Either making my own texture for something, turning a piece invisible or just to link it, if some complex Roleplay-Outfit that also needs me to equip two huds and stuff makes me hit the attachment limit in day and age of extra heads, ears, hair, jewelry, eyes, piercings, a body, hands, feet and then some... I don't get whats so difficult in writing NM/C/NT or something similar on your product page. It can't be too much to ask...

What is your view on this? am i the only one seeing it this way?

If you read this forum often enough, you'll see that a LOT of people (including myself) already do see it this way and the subject comes up here quite often.  I used to refuse to buy no-mod stuff but then I stopped because it eventually became impossible, I wasn't able to buy anything because it was ALL no-mod.  You can bet that 100% of all clothing that has no perms listed is Copy/No-mod/No-transfer.  You don't need the perms listed on the vendor. That's 100% what they will be, guaranteed.

I don't think it's necessarily arrogance though, I think it's partly a cash-grab (pay for the fatpack, not just the white one) and partly a fear that users will discover that the seller is using full perm templates and never actualy made the thing in the first place.

Thats why Demo-Demo-Demo is so important. If the thing isn't 100% perfect for you straight out the box, if you can't wear it exactly as-is without changing a texture or making a piece invisible or linking it to something else, don't buy it at all. You will NOT be able to modify it in any way whatsoever.

This is the reason why I am far more likely to buy full-perm kits these days. I don't sell them, I don't have a store, but buying a L$500 or even a L$1500 fullperm kit with infinite colour/texture/modification possibilities is waaay cheaper than buying a L$2500 no-mod fatpack of 10/20/30 options. My only exception is sellers who do use templates but texture them well and market them sensibly - a fatpack priced at say L$200 to L$400 with a big hud and good range of colours.  Hilly Haalan being my favourite - she is one of the few sellers I will buy at "full price" from, even knowing it's all no-mod.

I do think the trend is very slowly begining to reverse.  Mesh body sellers are already getting the message; some of the newest bodies (Kalhene Erika, Ebody Reborn and Belleza Gen-X) are now mod.  KC Shoes (which are already really well-priced) switched to mod for all their new releases about a year ago. I buy from a couple of niche sellers which not only make their stuff mod, they even include UV maps and sample textures so you can make your own.

 

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I, for one, often buy full-perms stuff for my own outifts, just because I can use whatever fabric pattern I feel like wearing that day. I'd gladly pay double the price of any fatpack just to be able to put my own textures on what I wear inworld. I can make and rig my own mesh clothes, heck, I even uploaded my own custom mesh body once, and it looked awesome, but it's a lot of work to make things and rig them, and I have no qualms about paying someone else for their time if I think they made something beautiful and I want to wear it.

And a lot of our resident content creators do far nicer design and execution of fashions than I have the patience or skill to do myself. I have loads of respect for that kind of artistry and hard work.

I realize it's a thread about creators not marking things properly to avoid customer disappointment, and has veered off into venting a bit about not being able to mod things in general, but I had to blurt that out, just because I forgot to mention it earlier.

If I buy FP meshes, it does tempt me to sell my modded versions of them (within the limits of the user license agreement, of course), but mostly it's just for my own sense of control over how various parts of my outfit match each other. I'll happily buy non-transferable, moddable versions of things and pay handsomely for them. It does take work to make and rig mesh clothing, and that work should be worth something, and even more so if they're kind  enough to give customization options to those who aren't fortunate enough to have the skills and/or tools and/or time necessary to make the base meshes for their outfits themselves.

Even when I decide to make things for myself, I still buy other creator's takes on them so as to support the creative community while finding inspiration for my own personal take on something. I've been known to buy every version of a thing before deciding I want to make my own. I feel it's at least fair to everyone else that way. Plus, my wardrobe is THE BOMB DIGGITY as a result.

Anyway, just my other two cents.

Edited by PheebyKatz
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4 hours ago, Akane Nacht said:

Creators don't owe us anything here...they make stuff and decide to share it or not as they choose.

If they give it away for free, then they don't owe us anything. If they accept L$s for their work, they get customers, not acolytes.

I had a bad weekend with SL merchants so I'm not feeling especially generous to "creators" right now. Multiple incidents, but the one that really got me wasn't about no-mod (other were, see below). The winner of "Arrogant Creator of the Week" was when an alt discovered that a new product's HUD did nothing at all, so he tried to contact the creator, whose profile said "please use the proper channels" and listed a couple customer service representatives. So that's who was sent a report, then more detail and a workaround, then finally a pinpointed bug and the fix the script needed (this despite the script being no-mod, hence invisible). The win? Here's the CSR's response: 

Quote

I am the incorrect person and you don't have to be so ignorant but ok, seems to be the global climate at the present moment. so guess we must deal with it I will pass on your comments. Next time I would suggest "This doesnt seem to be working correctly can you please have a look at it." would probably suffice. Thanks. have a wonderful day.

What a peach! 🙄

An unrelated incident that did involve no-mod was a complete mislabeling of a product as Copy+Mod. Turns out there was another product on offer that was modifiable, although the ad was for both products and made no distinction. There was a demo, but I figured the reason it was no-mod was because it was a demo. The product, though, was rigged for just one body (not mentioned on the ad board, and not a body I use), whereas I thought it was unrigged mesh I could modify. (It doesn't flex with joint motion or anything.) Had I tried there'd be no way to move the attached demo, so that would have revealed it was rigged, but I had no reason to test that. Anyway, once I understood all that, I didn't make a fuss; it wasn't all that much money anyway, and a relatively new brand. At least there was a demo; it was misleading, but unintentionally, I think.

There were other examples of "Creators Behaving Badly" too, but on a positive note, a few more who have overcome the "counterfeit" superstition hysteria and offer modifiable clothing:

  • Caboodle
  • FACS
  • Hotdog
  • lock&tuft
  • Malediction
  • Matova
  • Noche (fatpacks)
  • Semller (fatpacks)
  • Sintiklia
  • Thirst (fatpacks)

Some have been modifiable all along and some recently came over to the good side so may have back-catalog items that lack Mod perms, so as always check to be sure. Also I'm not sure I've flagged all the fatpack-only cases, or even which creators offer non-fatpack products at all.

 

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1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

If they give it away for free, then they don't owe us anything. If they accept L$s for their work, they get customers, not acolytes.

Free or paid, both are customers. In neither case does the maker owe me anything besides what they sold me. If I read the description wrongly, or didn't bother to demo or check with them first before buying, that's on me. If I couldn't reach the creator (and there are shops out there where the creator is long gone) and I bought it anyway, again, that's on me.

That said, if something is clearly broken, it's reasonable to ask for it to be fixed. I bought an item with a broken HUD once, and I politely informed the maker the HUD wasn't working. She fixed it for me within minutes, though I didn't hurry her. We don't have to be "acolytes" but being courteous sure doesn't hurt. 

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10 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

No, it isn't whining for people to discuss what they don't like about the way a business conducts itself.  Thank you for revealing how you think of customers in general.

Discussing isn't whining, that is totally true. But the OP tossed in a few extras that were totally not needed for such a discussion, IMHO.
Like the title of this thread for instance.

Edited by Sid Nagy
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2 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

There were other examples of "Creators Behaving Badly" too, but on a positive note, a few more who have overcome the "counterfeit" superstition hysteria and offer modifiable clothing:

  • Caboodle
  • FACS
  • Hotdog
  • lock&tuft
  • Malediction
  • Matova
  • Noche (fatpacks)
  • Semller (fatpacks)
  • Sintiklia
  • Thirst (fatpacks)

Some have been modifiable all along and some recently came over to the good side so may have back-catalog items that lack Mod perms, so as always check to be sure. Also I'm not sure I've flagged all the fatpack-only cases, or even which creators offer non-fatpack products at all.

 

To add to that list just to give creators who leave the mod-box checked some much-needed love:

  • Kaithleen's
  • Neve
  • Meva
  • Justice (fatpacks)
  • Asteroidbox (fatpacks, I think)
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@Qie Niangao Thank you for that list - also @Cinos Field. They'll get more of my and my wife's custom. That's what we need... lists of the sensible sellers.

We would both buy a lot more if things were modifyable. We've stopped buying a certain hair brand since they stopped having mod perms some time ago. Shame - it's really good hair. We used to buy a lot and we've often tinted it a little manually, or made other adjustments (materials etc) to get the most out of our purchases. No longer.

Edited by Rick Daylight
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2 hours ago, Akane Nacht said:

hmm? I was the customer with the broken thing. 

I was responding to how your post seemed to say that the "maker owes you nothing", but that if the thing you purchased was literally sold broken, you'd just be "reasonable to ask" for it to be fixed.

Yes, you should be polite about things, and yes, sometimes things are broken by accident or unforseen changes, but if someone's selling something I'd be inclined to say that they should fix it. Or at least allow you to fix it yourself.

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22 hours ago, Stephanie Lovely said:

 You are right, there is a definite move away from modifiable items and to more customer hostile things like anti rez scripts too.

I really do despise the anti-rez scripts. They serve absolutely no purpose other than give the creator a false sense of security. They are trivially easy to bypass and out of decorum I'll not mention the standard land/security feature (no tricks, no hacks, no exploits) that makes this a reality.  So, all an anti-rez script does is needlessly add to my script count and load on the system. We tend to be script heavy as it is anymore and i don't see the need to add to that bucket with a useless script. Now all that said, I don't go around making a habit of trying to bypass a so called security feature a particular designer decides to use; I can respect their implicit wish, after all my desire to rez a wearable is very narrowly situational (more below), and if I know a particular creator uses this type of script, I just don't buy from them.

21 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

For me, it depends on what the item is.  I insist on No Mod for all of my household and landscaping items.  I don't usually care when it comes to clothing as I'm seldom ever interested in making changes to those items.  I prefer No Mod for hair, but I will accept it as long as I get a demo that shows it fits well and as long as there is a supplied color/tint that works for me.

See, I prefer for decor/landscape items to be Yes Mod.  I like linking things together.  Sometimes it can lower the overall LI a group of items by making them a linkset.  It helps me adjust and move things around, when I pack things up, I can put them all back in one step.  Also, once set if the landscape/decore things have scripts and they don't self delete the scripts, I can pull those on out too.

21 hours ago, Gilliana Parx said:

I actually don't mind it with hair either. Often enough its just rigged anyhow, so there is no real point? And even if its mod it often is one big piece so even try-error texturing to delete bangs and all is not... really vaiable but thats fine. I noticed that many hair creators oddly enough do MORE modify recently or have, like... the bangs on the front be seperated items.

On clothing, not so much just hair, but if multiple items are rigged, and I'm always going to wear them as a set, I can link the various parts and then instead of 2, 3, 5 attachment slots taken up, it's just one.  Everything goes to where it needs be.  I don't often hit the attach limit but sometimes, there are days and special outfits where I get very close, especially if I have to have a few HUDS on.   But to be fair, those are special case scenarios and don't come up often, but I like having the option. I go out of my way to get Yes Mod clothes, but don't fgo out of my way to overtly shun No Mod, but if i have a choice between two similar items (clothing or decor), the mod status will be a deciding factor.

and a final thought, even no-non rigged things, like earrings, I can link and with a little patience and editing instead of them taking up two slots, I have a pair that take up just one.  it makes life a bit better.  I mentioned above that I'm not in a habit of regularly rezzing wearables, but the exception is to link things together, to pull out scripts, to maybe add/change a script (autohide). 

Edited by Anna Salyx
typo fix
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