Creator Arrogance

[Atomic Infinity]

Most of the stuff I do is modifiable, it's how I would want to receive it so that's how I distribute it.

I have never had someone mod an item, screw it up, and complain. After all they can just rez a fresh one and have another go. I have had many chats with people asking "can I do this to it?" which sometimes they can, and sometimes will break it. While there may be some disappointment if it can not bend quite that far, they still have not lost anything.

It is stupidly easy to break a scripted item if you mod it and the script relies on linknumbers, but there are ways to have the item learn its own links, or provide a sequence of stopping scripts before modding and such. It just demonstrates the depth to which the creator will go to give their customer real value, and how much their support is appreciated.

I find it enjoyable to see what people mod things into. I once had an IM from someone asking where they could get this amazing vehicle they saw, I forget what it was called but it sounded pretty cool. It was not the name of anything I had made though, so I had to point out that maybe it was made from parts of many vehicles. The chassis and drive scripts of it were mine. I was actually quite flattered that someone had gone to the trouble of building themselves an entirely new car, but of all the possible vehicle scripts they could use, they kept mine.

Then just the other day I visited someone who had constructed himself an entire power station with boilers and steam engines, all 'powered' by the (modifiable) stock-level scripted pile of coal he got from me with his latest truck trailer. Like, epic modding, or what!  

Mod Rulez

[Rick Nightingale]

@Atomic Infinity I wish I could like that post twice! Exactly how I feel about it, from both maker and consumer views.

[Prokofy Neva]

On 11/7/2022 at 2:23 PM, Qie Niangao said:

I wondered about this. It hasn't been my (very limited) experience, but I certainly don't doubt there are cases where it's true, and for all I know it may be the majority (I don't buy that much full perm mesh, and would never sell any so I might not notice). But I can't concoct a reason the full-perm creator would care about their products being sold on with Mod permission—other than the "counterfeit superstition" which they of all people should recognize to be bunk, so that doesn't fit either.

 

They must mean clothing? Furniture and decor tends always to be available to sell on mod, but not copy/transfer.

[PheebyKatz]

15 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Why are they doing it, "for fun" or "for sale"?

Most of what I sell I made for my own fun, amusement, or use. I share most of what I make with people I meet inworld, and list it on my MP for people who don't know me or who feel like supporting my art/hobby. I only charge for things that took me real work, or cost me a lot to get uploaded for whatever reasons, and my MP pays for future uploads and food for my cat.

I also tend to drop prices or make things free when I've sold enough to feel guilty for taking any more money. Not everything in life is one end of a stick or the other, some of us have more than one condition that is true simultaneously. You can do things for fun and for money.

I don't know where people get these ideas about everything being only one way and if one condition is true all others must be false. Even LSL scripting isn't that derned narrow in scope.

Unless they're doing it just to argue and feel superior? Sigh.

Edited November 9, 2022 by PheebyKatz

[Akane Nacht]

Since someone was 'confused' by one of my earlier comments, the creative commons approaches I was referring to are these: About CC Licenses - Creative Commons 

4 hours ago, PheebyKatz said:

I don't know where people get these ideas about everything being only one way and if one condition is true all others must be false. Even LSL scripting isn't that derned narrow in scope.

Yup, nor is licensing of creative content that simple. There are many options, I would think creative people would be glad of that. 

[EliseAnne85]

8 hours ago, Akane Nacht said:

Since someone was 'confused' by one of my earlier comments, the creative commons approaches I was referring to are these: About CC Licenses - Creative Commons 

Yup, nor is licensing of creative content that simple. There are many options, I would think creative people would be glad of that. 

I've never heard  of that but I think that creative commons is speaking about a commercial license.  One thing I do know about full perm items is almost all say that the license to use it is for SL only.  That's the user license on full perm items - SL only.  

Now, with this PBR in the pipeline, PBR is used mostly for commercials.  I see them on my YouTube page every day.  If those people used full perm items, the items are not for use outside of SL period.  I'm not sure about non full perm items.  

I fear PBR is going to bring about that above, the CC license, which is a commercial license, and that will raise the prices of items in SL considerably.  

SL is an MMO for fun and the user license helps keep it affordable.  If it goes commercial, that isn't what SL is to most of us and I fear SL will shoot itself in the foot.

Imagine how much money someone can make on a commercial.  Should creator's get peanuts for making the items while others are making tens of thousands of dollars on a commercial using their products without a commercial license to do so?

As far as the textures I make, I don't want them used in a commercial enterprise outside of SL period.  The textures I make are for SL only.  

I fear commercial licensing is coming down the road with PBR.  

 

 

[Frionil Fang]

1 hour ago, EliseAnne85 said:

I've never heard  of that but I think that creative commons is speaking about a commercial license.  One thing I do know about full perm items is almost all say that the license to use it is for SL only.  That's the user license on full perm items - SL only.  

Now, with this PBR in the pipeline, PBR is used mostly for commercials.  I see them on my YouTube page every day.  If those people used full perm items, the items are not for use outside of SL period.  I'm not sure about non full perm items.  

I fear PBR is going to bring about that above, the CC license, which is a commercial license, and that will raise the prices of items in SL considerably.  

SL is an MMO for fun and the user license helps keep it affordable.  If it goes commercial, that isn't what SL is to most of us and I fear SL will shoot itself in the foot.

Imagine how much money someone can make on a commercial.  Should creator's get peanuts for making the items while others are making tens of thousands of dollars on a commercial using their products without a commercial license to do so?

As far as the textures I make, I don't want them used in a commercial enterprise outside of SL period.  The textures I make are for SL only.  

I fear commercial licensing is coming down the road with PBR.  

This is a bit confused and confusing. Creative Commons is basically an open-source way of expressing your license terms, and it's there because it's easier to say "License: CC-BY-SA" instead of having to spell it out every time that you allow even commercial reuse with attribution. The product creator can choose their license terms as they please regardless of techniques used (unless the techniques themselves somehow included a license that they need to have).

Using a CC license has nothing to do with being "more commercial and expensive". PBR has nothing to do with it either, it's just an agreement on how materials are defined, different from what we current have. Make your textures, use whatever ALM/PBR channels you want, no one is forcing you to choose a loose license.

Edited November 9, 2022 by Frionil Fang

[EliseAnne85]

2 hours ago, Frionil Fang said:

This is a bit confused and confusing. Creative Commons is basically an open-source way of expressing your license terms, and it's there because it's easier to say "License: CC-BY-SA" instead of having to spell it out every time that you allow even commercial reuse with attribution. The product creator can choose their license terms as they please regardless of techniques used (unless the techniques themselves somehow included a license that they need to have).

Using a CC license has nothing to do with being "more commercial and expensive". PBR has nothing to do with it either, it's just an agreement on how materials are defined, different from what we current have. Make your textures, use whatever ALM/PBR channels you want, no one is stopping forcing you to choose a loose license.

Yeah, it was maybe a bit confused but CC involves having to give credit to any creators when using someone else's creation as I glanced over it.  

However, my fear remains that we are *heading* towards commercial licensing with PBR because it is the standard for commercials and was invented by the film industry.  Not to mention 3D modeled  and textured items *are* already in commercials.  

SL is user licensed for the vast majority of it including any textures one buys that are copy/mod/transfer - most of those are for use in SL only too.  User licensing is affordable.  Commercial licensing is expensive.

I'm cautious about this PBR thing that it won't lead to commercial licensing and be very expensive.  But, SL creator's could allow both - user and commercial perhaps if it becomes necessary.  The commercially licensed product will be way more expensive than the user licensed product that is for sure.  They will be two complete different prices.

Edited November 9, 2022 by EliseAnne85

[Drake1 Nightfire]

2 hours ago, EliseAnne85 said:

Yeah, it was maybe a bit confused but CC involves having to give credit to any creators when using someone else's creation as I glanced over it.  

However, my fear remains that we are *heading* towards commercial licensing with PBR because it is the standard for commercials and was invented by the film industry.  Not to mention 3D modeled  and textured items *are* already in commercials.  

SL is user licensed for the vast majority of it including any textures one buys that are copy/mod/transfer - most of those are for use in SL only too.  User licensing is affordable.  Commercial licensing is expensive.

I'm cautious about this PBR thing that it won't lead to commercial licensing and be very expensive.  But, SL creator's could allow both - user and commercial perhaps if it becomes necessary.  The commercially licensed product will be way more expensive than the user licensed product that is for sure.  They will be two complete different prices.

Forgive me for being dense, what is PBR? 

I mean, in my area and generation it stands for a really bad beer. Pabst Blue Ribbon.

[Anna Salyx]

30 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Forgive me for being dense, what is PBR? 

I mean, in my area and generation it stands for a really bad beer. Pabst Blue Ribbon.

I'm curious too.  Professional Bull Riders?  Pabts Blue Ribbon? Prep Baseball Report?   Those are the 3 that I know of off the top of my head. but I'm thinking this instance just might not be one of those.

[Frionil Fang]

53 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Forgive me for being dense, what is PBR? 

Physically Based Rendering. In context of SL it won't actually include all the "physically accurate" partss and most advanced rendering goodies the term implies, though. Modern game style, not Half-Life 2.

For SL specifically, a TL;DR explanation: it's an industry-standard subset spec of PBR rendering, allowing more detailed/realistic materials than our existing diffuse/normal/specular material system. Allows easier sharing of materials between different standard tools and engines, such as Blender, Maya, Unity, Unreal Engine (what you see in Blender is much more like what you get in SL, and so on). Search these forums for discussions and some demonstrations. Maybe it's easiest to think of it as kind of ALM 2.0.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

1 hour ago, Frionil Fang said:

Physically Based Rendering. In context of SL it won't actually include all the "physically accurate" partss and most advanced rendering goodies the term implies, though. Modern game style, not Half-Life 2.

For SL specifically, a TL;DR explanation: it's an industry-standard subset spec of PBR rendering, allowing more detailed/realistic materials than our existing diffuse/normal/specular material system. Allows easier sharing of materials between different standard tools and engines, such as Blender, Maya, Unity, Unreal Engine (what you see in Blender is much more like what you get in SL, and so on). Search these forums for discussions and some demonstrations. Maybe it's easiest to think of it as kind of ALM 2.0.

Ah.. Technobabble. More stuff to cause lag and make older machines less likely to run SL. Got it.

BTW PBR rendering, is that like an ATM machine? 

Automatic Teller Machine machine. 

Physically Based Rendering rendering

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

2 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Ah.. Technobabble. More stuff to cause lag and make older machines less likely to run SL. Got it.

In the hands of those who know how to use them PBR materials could be a powerful tool capable of not only improving the visual quality of content but also potentially improving performance... but yes, in the hands of the average SL creators/residents it's most likely just going to cause more lag.

A hammer is also a very powerful and versatile tool which can perform a lot of useful tasks, but put one in the hands of a child and they'll most likely just hurt someone.

[Cali Souther]

On 11/8/2022 at 1:48 PM, Prokofy Neva said:

They must mean clothing? Furniture and decor tends always to be available to sell on mod, but not copy/transfer.

I was referring to clothing, yes.  If you create from a template,  you have to ad a prim and link to make it "yours" --- so if you sell it as mod,  it would certainly mess with that part.   I don't know that much about it - and I didn't realize so many were so big on mod abilities.  I do like it when I can change the color of something tho ---   just can't seem to keep that option open without leaving everything else open as well.

[EliseAnne85]

1 hour ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

In the hands of those who know how to use them PBR materials could be a powerful tool capable of not only improving the visual quality of content but also potentially improving performance... but yes, in the hands of the average SL creators/residents it's most likely just going to cause more lag.

 

It may be "crap" that causes more lag, or in a year or two when people get really good at it, it will be commercial grade.  Or, if people start out good, it could be commercial grade in a short period of time.  If PBR products come out as realistic as real life as PBR intends, it will eventually be sought after by those who make commercials.  But, commercials with 3D objects and textures are already in commercials, under what license I have no idea.   I see SL-esque commercials on my YouTube every day.  They appear in music that is often considered background music but they are all over the place on YouTube.  If PBR is even better suited  for commercials and commercial use, it will probably need a commercial license if the SL objects are used for commercials.  A person who sells digital goods can offer both - a user license and a commercial license to use their product.  Many places already have that.  Shutterstock is one where people with stock photos can offer both a user and a commercial license.  The commercial licensing is way more expensive on Shutterstock if one wants to use a photo for commercial use. 

Edited November 10, 2022 by EliseAnne85

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

24 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

It may be "crap" that causes more lag, or in a year or two when people get really good at it, it will be commercial grade.  Or, if people start out good, it could be commercial grade in a short period of time.  If PBR products come out as realistic as real life as PBR intends, it will eventually be sought after by those who make commercials.  But, commercials with 3D objects and textures are already in commercials, under what license I have no idea.   I see SL-esque commercials on my YouTube every day.  They appear in music that is often considered background music but they are all over the place on YouTube.  If PBR is even better suited  for commercials and commercial use, it will probably need a commercial license if the SL objects are used for commercials.  A person who sells digital goods can offer both - a user license and a commercial license to use their product.  Many places already have that.  Shutterstock is one where people with stock photos can have both a user and a commercial license.  The commercial licensing is way more expensive on Shutterstock if one wants to use a photo for commercial use. 

Firstly I never called anything "crap", there's a difference between something being inexpertly made and being "crap".

Secondly "commercial licensing" is a reference to "commerce" (i.e. the buying and selling of things for money) rather than specifically referring to the use of of something for "commercials" (i.e. advertising).

As for "commercial grade" content in SL, if you were to try and pass off the majority of contents of an average SL region as finished professional quality assets at any development studio or production house I suspect your next assigned task would be to pack your personal belongings into a cardboard box.

It's not that there isn't some visually stunningly and technically impressive content in SL but due to the idiosyncratic nature of creating content for SL and the wildly varying level of technical skill of various creators, the vast majority of it is a long way from professional quality assets.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

1 hour ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

In the hands of those who know how to use them PBR materials could be a powerful tool capable of not only improving the visual quality of content but also potentially improving performance... but yes, in the hands of the average SL creators/residents it's most likely just going to cause more lag.

A hammer is also a very powerful and versatile tool which can perform a lot of useful tasks, but put one in the hands of a child and they'll most likely just hurt someone.

We have high end creators using a 1024 texture on a doorknob. The likelihood of this causing more lag is extremely high. 

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

2 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

We have high end creators using a 1024 texture on a doorknob. The likelihood of this causing more lag is extremely high. 

There seems to be this widely held misconception that the primary reason to add extra materials/faces to a mesh is so you can slap a few more unique 1k textures on it and make it look "prettier" when, in reality, the best use of multiple materials/faces is to reduce the overall number of unique textures required when creating environments, architecture & props.

[EliseAnne85]

39 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

Firstly I never called anything "crap", there's a difference between something being inexpertly made and being "crap".

Secondly "commercial licensing" is a reference to "commerce" (i.e. the buying and selling of things for money) rather than specifically referring to the use of of something for "commercials" (i.e. advertising).

As for "commercial grade" content in SL, if you were to try and pass off the majority of contents of an average SL region as finished professional quality assets at any development studio or production house I suspect your next assigned task would be to pack your personal belongings into a cardboard box.

It's not that there isn't some visually stunningly and technically impressive content in SL but due to the idiosyncratic nature of creating content for SL and the wildly varying level of technical skill of various creators, the vast majority of it is a long way from professional quality assets.

I wasn't directly relating to every word you said when I quoted you but chose the word "crap" because that's a word that's been passed around when PBR comes up.  But, I really doubt it will be crap.  However, I never meant to imply you did, sorry about that.  You said it may be a powerful tool.  I think so too.

Anyhow, I know what a commercial use license is.  I doubt someone who needs to make a commercial will go to Shutterstock for a 2D photo to make a commercial.  They will most likely need a photo for a greeting card or a calendar perhaps.  

However, these commercials I see on YouTube with SL made stuff or other 3D seller places, where the names escape me now, are pretty good.  Since I've been in SL, I can tell it's SL made and I've posted a few links here for others to view it.   But, some would rate an 8 to a 9 in that they could fool some other people into thinking the furniture in the commercial are real.  What license they have to use it outside of SL I am not sure.  But, if it gets to area of making hundreds of thousands of dollars for commercial enterprises, I don't think creator's are going to settle for just a SL user license for their products and get paid a dollar here, two dollars there.

As far as the quality of PBR, if some of these commercials with SL objects look that good now, I can't even imagine what PBR would like it.  I think it will look real.  We will have to wait and see.  

 

[Rowan Amore]

4 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

What license they have to use it outside of SL I am not sure.

None actually as per the ToS.

 

2.5 You also grant Linden Lab and other users of the Service a license to use your Content in snapshots and machinima that is displayed in publicly accessible areas of the Service.

You agree that by uploading, publishing, or submitting any Content to or through the Servers for display in any publicly accessible area of the Service, you hereby grant other users a non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty-free, sublicenseable and transferable license to photograph, capture an image of, film, and record a video of the Content, and to use, reproduce, distribute, prepare derivative works of, display, and perform the resulting photograph, image, film, or video in any current or future media as provided in and subject to the restrictions and requirements of an applicable Product Policy or other policy. The foregoing license is referred to as the "Snapshot and Machinima Content License."

[EliseAnne85]

7 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

2.5 You also grant Linden Lab and other users of the Service a license to use your Content in snapshots and machinima that is displayed in publicly accessible areas of the Service.

It sounds like it grants "us" a license to use someone's content in snapshots/machinamas in publicly accessible areas.  Oh, legalese.  Not for now.  I have no more time.  Thanks for sharing that though.  There must be more to read.  Yay.

 

[Rowan Amore]

33 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

It sounds like it grants "us" a license to use someone's content in snapshots/machinamas in publicly accessible areas.  Oh, legalese.  Not for now.  I have no more time.  Thanks for sharing that though.  There must be more to read.  Yay.

 

Yes, by putting content you've made into SL, I can use that item if I'm taking a photo or doing a video without any other licensing needed.  If that were NOT the case, every photo or video done inside SL that included any other user's content would need a license.  Every photo I do for Flickr with each item in the background or clothing I'm wearing.  No one would do pictures or blogs or vlogs if we needed licenses for all that.

[PheebyKatz]

This thread has kinda jangled me some. With the discussion here in mind, I decided to look for a singularly distinctive hairstyle on the MP, and found it being sold by more than one vendor. The demos are identical meshes with different HUDs, and one has an extra version that was tweaked in blender to fit larger-boobied persons.

They are directly taken from a website that lets people download content from The Sims. I'm not sure what the "original" uploader's credentials are as far as owning the asset and legally uploading it to that site in the first place, and if they do in fact own the asset legally, I don't know what their own terms of use are for people who download it from the site, because I wasn't going to make an account just to find out the details.

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Alba-Mesh-Hair-browns-black/6700650 <-- first one demo'ed

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/SOUL-HAIR-Mesh-Ammolite-DEMO-ALL/6664794?page=1 <-- second one demo'ed

In the ads they look slightly different, but inworld they are identical, down to the fit around the ear and the little sidelock that dangles in front of the right ear and the two slight parts in the bangs.

All I know is, if it's a legal product, it'd be cheaper for me to go get it, rig it and upload it myself, and if it's an illegal product it's been on the MP forever and nobody's ever done anything about it.

TL;DR: I'm about to just quit buying hair from anyone and start making my own instead. I couldn't feel good wearing something that people are praising as such fine creative work from someone who just lets everyone think they made it themselves. The relatively low prices almost scream out that they feel some funny way about selling them, too. It's almost like an apology ahead of time in case people notice.

Also, I'm not trying to slam anyone here for anything (if they're within their rights, then more power to them for good use of resources), just mentioning that now I can't unsee all of this. And I wanted that hairstyle SO bad!

EDIT: I visited the website (butterflysims), and the person who uploaded the hair to it originally no longer has that account. I got a 404 on the user. Now I'm wondering if they got suspended or deleted their account on their own. And I'm wondering if the vendors got it from the site or got it the same way the uploader to that site got it.

Still not trying to neg on the vendors, for all I know they have every right to sell the hair, and at least one of them put a lot of work into improving the original and providing options. It's just the not knowing that gets to me.

*Sigh* I'mma go swim and try to forget about it. And then I'm going to try and make my first hairstyle in Blender. Gotta start somewhere.

Edited November 10, 2022 by PheebyKatz

[blaireberry]

I came across this post by a backdrop creator who recently decided to revert back to no-mod: 

Seems as though some people have found a way to resell this creator's work via rezzers, so to prevent this they are going no-mod. Sounds really strange to me because AFAIK as long as you set to no-transfer, no one can resell your things, not even in rezzers. But I guess some creators still feel the need for no-mod.

[Atomic Infinity]

21 minutes ago, blaireberry said:

I came across this post by a backdrop creator who recently decided to revert back to no-mod: 

Seems as though some people have found a way to resell this creator's work via rezzers, so to prevent this they are going no-mod. Sounds really strange to me because AFAIK as long as you set to no-transfer, no one can resell your things, not even in rezzers. But I guess some creators still feel the need for no-mod.

If set to no transfer they would not actually be able to re-sell it, by rezzer or otherwise, but perhaps they are doing the equivalent of selling a ticket to use it - like you pay the rezzer to get some time using that backdrop, like renting it for a while.

edit : without even thinking on it, I can already see two other ways to charge people to get use of a backdrop, even if no-mod, so I doubt it will fix anything anyway. But then sharing visual type objects once you bought them is kinda how SL works really, though I can see why the creator is upset by someone charging for use.

Edited November 10, 2022 by Atomic Infinity
extra thought