Creator Arrogance

[Theresa Tennyson]

12 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

We have high end creators using a 1024 texture on a doorknob. The likelihood of this causing more lag is extremely high. 

And then you get the builds with 1024 textures on doorknobs and the end user can't do something more sensible because....

wait for it...

[steeljane42]

36 minutes ago, Atomic Infinity said:

without even thinking on it, I can already see two other ways to charge people to get use of a backdrop, even if no-mod, so I doubt it will fix anything anyway. But then sharing visual type objects once you bought them is kinda how SL works really, though I can see why the creator is upset by someone charging for use.

Some creators are just like that. I remember seeing some "reasoning" on those forums as for why they didn't like/made copy-able furniture is because they didn't want people to just buy one and use it for themselves, friends, clubs and so on. Which is beyond silly (being polite here, otherwise there are more fitting words). And I remember another furniture maker in-world, many many years ago was being all hostile and put out some ToS how his stuff could't be used in rentals-skyboxes (rezzers, basically). I think he left SL shortly after that accident.

Thankfully those creators are a minority, otherwise we would be buying ladscape tools tree by tree, flower by flower etc. Or, the horror, those are usable everywhere in SL and creators gets nothing if people help each other to make their homes/places more pretty and rezz for each other. But the most, from what I know, actually enjoy seeing their creations being used and appreciated by so many people.

Edited November 10, 2022 by steeljane42

[Atomic Infinity]

Actually the more I think on the no-mod backdrops subject, you can easily compare it widely across the grid. Obvious examples :

You can rent land with a house included. The landlord bought it from the creator with copy perms then might rez out 10 of them, and charge for their use. Normal SL practice.

You might buy in super decor, furniture, etc and build an exclusive members only club, then charge for group membership for those people to share your build. Normal SL practice.

I don't think there is a way to prevent the sharing of visual objects for a fee, being no-mod makes no difference at all.

[EliseAnne85]

18 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

And then you get the builds with 1024 textures on doorknobs and the end user can't do something more sensible because....

wait for it...

I gather the SL community thinks I'm having wild imaginings about PBR.  But, I think it could be very high end; and, if it is, it could end up no mod everything in that people will be very possessive of it.   

What I'm fearing with PBR is here come the 2048's.  

[EliseAnne85]

11 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

Yes, by putting content you've made into SL, I can use that item if I'm taking a photo or doing a video without any other licensing needed.  If that were NOT the case, every photo or video done inside SL that included any other user's content would need a license.  Every photo I do for Flickr with each item in the background or clothing I'm wearing.  No one would do pictures or blogs or vlogs if we needed licenses for all that.

I'm reading the TOS now and there are stipulations.  As far as blogs, they have to put the creator's name for everything so that's advertising and different.  It says we are free to use items that are on "public display".  Private is another matter or the landowner can set rules of no photographs or machinemas.   And, it says the license is for what "we" created (and put on public display)...which means LL or what?

License Conditions

The Licenses are subject to the following conditions:

(a) Land Owner Consent for Snapshots and Machinima

If you wish to take a snapshot or capture machinima of content on another Resident’s land, then:

1. For Snapshots, check whether the covenant for the land prohibits snapshots. If it does, then you need special permission from the land owner to take the snapshot. If it allows snapshots or doesn’t address them, then you do not need special permission from the land owner as long as you comply with any terms that may be in the covenant.
2. For Machinima, check whether the covenant for the land allows machinima. If it does not or doesn’t address machinima, then you need special permission from the land owner to capture machinima. If it allows machinima, then you do not need special permission from the land owner as long as you comply with any terms that may be in the covenant.

For Mainland or Linden Homes parcels where Linden Lab is the estate owner, you do not need land owner consent to take snapshots, but you do need special permission from the land owner to capture machinima. The “land owner” is not the estate owner, but the Resident identified as the land owner in the “General” tab under “About Land.” For private islands where Residents are estate owners, you must check the covenant for the private island as provided above.

(b) Avatar Consent for Machinima

For machinima, you must have the consent of all Residents whose avatars or Second Life names are featured or recognizable in the machinima. This includes avatars who are featured in a shot, avatars whose names are legible, and avatars whose appearance is sufficiently distinctive that they are recognizable by members of the Second Life community. Consent is not required if an avatar is not recognizable and is merely part of a crowd scene or shown in a fleeting background. Consent is not required for any snapshots.

(c) Other Intellectual Property Licenses

It’s important to remember that the Licenses are only copyright licenses for the 3D content we created that is displayed in-world. They do not include any permission to use the trademarks of Linden Lab or Residents, and they do not give any copyright permission to use music or sound recordings that may be performed in-world. They also do not give any copyright permission to use any website or video content that may be streamed from outside the Second Life virtual world environment.

If the content that you capture is subject to any trademark, service mark, trade dress, publicity rights, or other intellectual property or proprietary rights, you must obtain the necessary licenses and permissions to use the content, and you use it at your own risk.

For general information on intellectual property, please see our Intellectual Property Policy. If you seek legal advice about a specific situation, we suggest contacting a lawyer. Linden Lab cannot provide you with legal advice.

(d) Compliance with Linden Lab Policies

You must be in full compliance with the Second Life Terms of Service, Community Standards, Trademark Guidelines, and all other policies of Linden Lab.

(e) Sublicensee or Transferee Obligations

If you wish to allow others to distribute or use your snapshots and machinima, you may sublicense or transfer your License To Use your snapshots and machinima. If you do, the sublicensee or transferee must assume your obligations under paragraph 2(c) 

https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Snapshot_and_machinima_policy

Edited November 10, 2022 by EliseAnne85

[animats]

I'd like to have a separation between "mod textures" and "mod form".

My escalators are currently no-mod to prevent people from trying to resize them, or resizing them accidentally. Resizing them in-world usually breaks the geometry that makes them work. Then people complain. This applies to a lot of things with moving parts, such as vehicles.

I have no problem with people changing the textures. I'd like to let people do that.

[ChinRey]

4 minutes ago, animats said:

I'd like to have a separation between "mod textures" and "mod form".

There is a workaround for that problem: include a script that allows the owner to set textures by UUIDs. It's a really clumsy way to do it though and probably not worth the effort but it is possible.

[Ceka Cianci]

Isn't pretty much anything rigged unable to be modded anyways?

[Atomic Infinity]

4 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

Isn't pretty much anything rigged unable to be modded anyways?

If modify you can re-texture it or script it, you just can't move its rig position on your avatar.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

40 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

Isn't pretty much anything rigged unable to be modded anyways?

 

34 minutes ago, Atomic Infinity said:

If modify you can re-texture it or script it, you just can't move its rig position on your avatar.

And you can link other mesh/prims to it, such as flowers, butterflies, whatever. Which is one reason mesh clothing creators dont want their creations MOD. They had a vision of their creation, they dont want someone messing with it. If you want to mod clothing, make your own or buy full perm kits. 

[Ceka Cianci]

24 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

 

And you can link other mesh/prims to it, such as flowers, butterflies, whatever. Which is one reason mesh clothing creators dont want their creations MOD. They had a vision of their creation, they dont want someone messing with it. If you want to mod clothing, make your own or buy full perm kits. 

I was just asking about rigged items.. Mainly because I know unrigged can be resized.. Had nothing to do with opinion  about mod or no mod, at all.

Edited November 10, 2022 by Ceka Cianci

[Cinos Field]

50 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

And you can link other mesh/prims to it, such as flowers, butterflies, whatever. Which is one reason mesh clothing creators dont want their creations MOD. They had a vision of their creation, they dont want someone messing with it. If you want to mod clothing, make your own or buy full perm kits. 

I can't think of any possible way to make me want to buy a creator's clothing less than "~my vision~"

[Atomic Infinity]

I have 'visions' of my creations too, though in the end somehow they never look as good as the picture in my head

[Evangeline Arcadia]

I haven't read this whole thread, but in response to the OP, I've felt irritated at times when the creator doesn't list the permissions. But then I just don't buy whatever it is, so it's the creator's loss. Makes me feel like they really don't want my money.

I don't mind some things not being MOD - it really depends what it is. On the whole there are only two things that will stop me buying something - permssions and info not clearly stated, and no demo. IMO these should be standard for these days (I'm mainly talking about vehicles, clothing, home and garden items. I get that some really old products might not have demos,).

Edited November 10, 2022 by Evangeline Arcadia

[Qie Niangao]

2 hours ago, animats said:

My escalators are currently no-mod to prevent people from trying to resize them, or resizing them accidentally. Resizing them in-world usually breaks the geometry that makes them work. Then people complain. This applies to a lot of things with moving parts, such as vehicles.

Yeah, I used to worry about this and used No-Mod for a while, very long ago, for a weird product that was necessarily Transfer/No-Copy as part of its utility. But practically everything I work on now is Copy, so if they screw up the one they rezzed, they can rez a new one (or get redelivered, depending how they got the thing in the first place).

That said, I've sometimes spent weeks of development time trying to support resizing, reshaping, relinking, etc. even in complex assemblies, trying to preserve or recover the inviolable constraints among dimensions and motion geometry. It's worth it in some contraptions and within some limits of what tortures users can dream up. If they break it, they break it, and if they complain—well, I never get those complaints myself. 😜

[Salt Peppermint]

On 11/6/2022 at 7:54 PM, Gilliana Parx said:

I know, a bit of a rude title, but i did not know how else to put it. 

In the recent... one or two years in SL of the 14 I am apparently in here, i noticed that an absurd high number of creators not only sell their items No Modify (which i in itself find absolutely stupid) but - which i find far worse - refuse to list the permissions of the items they sell anywhere on the package. And while im sitting here since half an hour, trying to find out if a certain item is modify, i am also at the same time wondering...

Why the heck are we okay with this?

I already realized that there is a MASSIVE spike in self-importance with many creators, even tho their creative energy begins and ends with what was in a fashion magazine six months ago, but isn't it just a matter of basic decency to let your customer know what exactly they are buying? I don't agree to no mod and you might see that differently. Okay, fine! But can i at least be informed about the specifics of the stuff i put money in for, thank you very much?

I don't see any kind of movement against this, even tho everyone should be angry at that. In fact, it should be against the rules. In reality thats what we would call "buying a pig in a poke". And by now it seems to be a vast majority of clothing and accessoires related items for those big bodies that just don't tell you.

I want to mod my stuff. Either making my own texture for something, turning a piece invisible or just to link it, if some complex Roleplay-Outfit that also needs me to equip two huds and stuff makes me hit the attachment limit in day and age of extra heads, ears, hair, jewelry, eyes, piercings, a body, hands, feet and then some... I don't get whats so difficult in writing NM/C/NT or something similar on your product page. It can't be too much to ask...

What is your view on this? am i the only one seeing it this way?

Reading through this thread, especially the OP, I must say as a creator this is quite disheartening and hurtful. While I fully agree that permissions , whichever they are, should be listed, I am also sure that not listed ones are just a mistake that can be easily fixed by reaching out to that particular creator and ask. I highly doubt you would get “I am not telling you what perms this item has” as a response .

so I do not see any arrogance in that but I do see a lot of arrogance towards creators in this thread

its totally okay not to like something , to disagree and to discuss things but why can’t this be said in a polite and respectful way? 
 

kindness is actually free. You can even mod it to make it super great and share as well!

On 11/8/2022 at 4:42 AM, Rick Daylight said:

A final note to sellers... if you are so worried about people retexturing your single items to save paying you again for a re-tinted version (that took you two seconds to do) 

I would highly recommend to start learnings meshing and texturing, it seems impossible to understand how much time , work and effort goes into that if you haven’t tried it yourself. Yes, even into different colourings. 
 

SL is full of beautiful things made by many many various creators . It would be a sad platform without these ”arrogant creators”. You will find plenty of stuff that will have the perms you prefer. 

[Arielle Popstar]

2 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

 

And you can link other mesh/prims to it, such as flowers, butterflies, whatever. Which is one reason mesh clothing creators dont want their creations MOD. They had a vision of their creation, they dont want someone messing with it. If you want to mod clothing, make your own or buy full perm kits. 

Is this from a poll of creators you have taken? I suspect that for many of the high output creative types, they slap their standard textures and colours on a new item and put it up for sale. I see enough Creators who just use the same one's over and over again rather then each being a unique work of art never to be repeated. Plenty enough creations out there where they would have been better off slapping a blank texture over it rather then they mess made of it with some standardized texture.

[animats]

28 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

That said, I've sometimes spent weeks of development time trying to support resizing, reshaping, relinking, etc. even in complex assemblies, trying to preserve or recover the inviolable constraints among dimensions and motion geometry.

I've done that, but it's in a Python program for Blender. The finished product doesn't have all the parametric machinery. You can do a lot more in Blender. The frame of my escalator is one mesh, and in Blender, I can stretch the middle straight section to change the length without affecting the top and bottom.

SineSpace and 3DXchat have some parametric capabilities for intelligent resizing, but SL does not, except for avatars.

[Arielle Popstar]

The biggest bugaboo I have about the No Modify permission is the inability to change the name of an item as a result. I can tolerate those items with no texture or form changes but a naming change of the items once it reaches my inventory is the one aspect where I'd like to see a separation. It would do a lot to allow me to sort my inventory better as well as make it much more efficient. Having an ability to identify which particular Nail/Lipstick/Hair/Shoe has which colour would make my dressing life so much easier. Along with making the naming so much easier instead of:

• */Business Name - Product Name - version - Rigged Body Name - Add on Part a (no modify) (no transfer)
• */Business Name - Product Name - version - Rigged Body Name - Add on Part a (no modify) (no transfer)
• */Business Name - Product Name - version - Rigged Body Name - Add on Part a (no modify) (no transfer)
• */Business Name - Product Name - version - Rigged Body Name - Add on Part a (no modify) (no transfer)
• */Business Name - Product Name - version - Rigged Body Name - Add on Part a. (no modify) (no transfer)

As opposed to:

        Body-Add on Part Folder

• Pink
• Blue
• Pastel
• Yellow
• White

 

 

[Rick Nightingale]

59 minutes ago, Salt Peppermint said:

I would highly recommend to start learnings meshing and texturing, it seems impossible to understand how much time , work and effort goes into that if you haven’t tried it yourself. Yes, even into different colourings.

I would highly recommend you don't make assumptions.

I've been making mesh for SL for over five years. I make and sell BOM/Bento rigged mermaid and merman tails, even for bodies I have no rigging model for (try trial and error rigging!). I make and sell houses, furniture, sailing boats, things for Waterhorse Bento horses, Animesh things, accessories like functional weapons (one is quite unique in what it does), and other assorted paraphernalia. I've made far, far more than that just for myself over the years. Often because no-one made what I wanted, or, unfortunately more often, I found it wanting (poor LOD, ridiculous triangle counts, ripped-off work from some 3D website, mesh errors, not the texture I wanted, and/or... NO MOD!).

I should also add sometimes because I could not afford it - usually when I found something actually good. And there *is* a lot of really good stuff and there are really good creators on SL. Don't think I'm just 'down' on creators in general. Quite the opposite, I really value them, they make my SL what it is (with some fill-in from myself)... for those who give a hoot about what they 'make' and sell anyway.

All of my work (that I sell) is made by me; mesh and texturing*. I'm no artist, which is why I don't make clothing; I'm never really happy with it when I've tried compared to the good creators in SL and frankly I'm not really interested in making that anyway. I make what I like to make or what I need for myself.

I'm thus fully aware of how long it takes to do these things. I know exactly how long it (doesn't) takes to retint something in Photoshop (including template clothing that I've bought for my own use with UV etc. provided). I also have an idea of how long it takes to create completely individual textures for each 'colour option' for those who do it better. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with simply retinting things with a colour multiply layer or some fancy mixing effect that takes two seconds, but I think selling such work all as individual, full priced, NO MOD products is mean and greedy. Sell it a bit dearer than one as a mod-perms fatpack and I'm happy. I'm allowed to think that way! It's why I have those full perm templates for making my own. (I don't sell them).

* Full disclosure: on rare occasions I'll use a purchased texture because it's just what I want and to recreate it would be a waste of time (and probably not be as good short of blatant plagiarism which isn't my style.)

 

Edited November 10, 2022 by Rick Daylight

[Salt Peppermint]

@Rick Daylight if you know how much work goes into it, your words are even more saddening 

we can chose to put others down or lift them up and encourage them to do better. It’s always a choice 

 

[Rick Nightingale]

@Salt Peppermint I agree.

The problem is that no matter how much many of us give logical and sensible reasons for things to have mod-perms, many sellers simply are not interested. They want to sell things that we cannot touch. That saddens (and annoys) me for all the reasons in this thread.

I'll encourage anyone who is responsive to it, and remember niceness and respect are two-way streets. Want some examples of my recent interactions with sellers? Well you're going to get a few anyway, lol.

• Contacted (very nicely) a seller with a very big store who had a product very incorrectly described (read blatantly wrong). I explained why I was sure. I was hoping the seller might correct the issue, I could even have told them how to (and just stopped short of offering to do so because I didn't want to seem condescending). The response... well, I won't bother contacting the seller again because they made me feel I was in the wrong for doing so.
• Contacted a fairly new seller regarding a product I had from them, because I could show them how to make significant improvements to it very easily (like it took me 30s to drop the land impact by half). Even sent them a replacement mesh I made (FP, that they could use if they wished) to illustrate some of it. The response there was positive... glad I had done so. And for the record they had already figured out what I told them, just hadn't had chance to update that product.
• Asked a seller if a fatpack of theirs was mod perms (some of theirs are, some aren't). We spent a lot of money there. No answer. Asked again... then my wife asked (it was for her anyway). No answer. Gave up.
• Bought an item on the MP that I had seen at an in-world store, so I could leave a good review on it. That was missing some things that the version in the store had, even though they were supposed to be the same product. Contacted the seller... contacted the CS manager... no answer. Eventually gave up and removed my good review.
• Bought a product that had an error in the texture HUD, from a store with an expensive group membership (which we both have) and where my wife and I have spent a lot of money despite the stuff being no-mod. Messaged the seller (very nicely) and even made a video showing the error. First response was to tell me I didn't know how to use the HUD and that it worked perfectly. I tried again. Second response (which took a few days) was that I should get a redelivery. Third and final try to get through to this person that the HUD was sending the wrong UUID to the clothing finally got through and they sort of grudgingly said they would fix it.
• Got a demo for a product I would likely have bought, only to find it was missing the demo for the body I wanted. Messaged the CS... nothing. Messaged the maker... nothing. Gave up.

I could go on like that if I went back further. Of all of those, the only positive one was a relatively small, new seller. The others are all big names. I'm not saying they are all bad. Some sellers (yes, even of no-mod stuff, lol) have exceptional customer service (they know it keeps customers happy) but it has been my experience that those who insist on selling no-mod tend to have worse manners than those who sell mod-perms stuff.

So, yes, it is sad.

[Stephanie Misfit]

5 minutes ago, Rick Daylight said:

@Salt Peppermint I agree.

The problem is that no matter how much many of us give logical and sensible reasons for things to have mod-perms, many sellers simply are not interested. They want to sell things that we cannot touch. That saddens (and annoys) me for all the reasons in this thread.

I'll encourage anyone who is responsive to it, and remember niceness and respect are two-way streets. Want some examples of my recent interactions with sellers? Well you're going to get a few anyway, lol.

• Contacted (very nicely) a seller with a very big store who had a product very incorrectly described (read blatantly wrong). I explained why I was sure. I was hoping the seller might correct the issue, I could even have told them how to (and just stopped short of offering to do so because I didn't want to seem condescending). The response... well, I won't bother contacting the seller again because they made me feel I was in the wrong for doing so.
• Contacted a fairly new seller regarding a product I had from them, because I could show them how to make significant improvements to it very easily (like it took me 30s to drop the land impact by half). Even sent them a replacement mesh I made (FP, that they could use if they wished) to illustrate some of it. The response there was positive... glad I had done so. And for the record they had already figured out what I told them, just hadn't had chance to update that product.
• Asked a seller if a fatpack of theirs was mod perms (some of theirs are, some aren't). We spent a lot of money there. No answer. Asked again... then my wife asked (it was for her anyway). No answer. Gave up.
• Bought an item on the MP that I had seen at an in-world store, so I could leave a good review on it. That was missing some things that the version in the store had, even though they were supposed to be the same product. Contacted the seller... contacted the CS manager... no answer. Eventually gave up and removed my good review.
• Bought a product that had an error in the texture HUD, from a store with an expensive group membership (which we both have) and where my wife and I have spent a lot of money despite the stuff being no-mod. Messaged the seller (very nicely) and even made a video showing the error. First response was to tell me I didn't know how to use the HUD and that it worked perfectly. I tried again. Second response (which took a few days) was that I should get a redelivery. Third and final try to get through to this person that the HUD was sending the wrong UUID to the clothing finally got through and they sort of grudgingly said they would fix it.
• Got a demo for a product I would likely have bought, only to find it was missing the demo for the body I wanted. Messaged the CS... nothing. Messaged the maker... nothing. Gave up.

I could go on like that if I went back further. Of all of those, the only positive one was a relatively small, new seller. The others are all big names. I'm not saying they are all bad. Some sellers (yes, even of no-mod stuff, lol) have exceptional customer service (they know it keeps customers happy) but it has been my experience that those who insist on selling no-mod tend to have worse manners than those who sell mod-perms stuff.

So, yes, it is sad.

Most creators are great to deal with. Some are downright awesome. I think the bad dealings stick in our memory more than the good ones. I will say that not everyone is cut out for customer service, and if you are a creator who does not have good people skills or you simply do not have the time to provide that service, it is time to get a good CSR.

[Salt Peppermint]

6 minutes ago, Rick Daylight said:

 

The problem is that no matter how much many of us give logical and sensible reasons for things to have mod-perms, many sellers simply are not interested. They want to sell things that we cannot touch. That saddens (and annoys) me for all the reasons in this thread.

 

no matter how many "logical and sensible reasons" you give to any creator to change their perms, the creator doesn't have to follow that. it's up to the creator, period. logical or not. Nothing of that justifies disrespect just because you can't have something your way.

As for creators not answering.. again there can be gazillion reasons. not logged on in a while, lost IM's, overseeing the nc, being overwhlemed with deadlines and work, having personal issues etc. Being someone who gets those nc and IM's on daily bases, I can also say that a lot of considering them being nicely asking, come with a very passive agressive tone and entitlement. So I can see some creators simply not responding to those, too. I am not saying you were, more of a general observation.

[Salt Peppermint]

5 minutes ago, Stephanie Lovely said:

Most creators are great to deal with. Some are downright awesome. I think the bad dealings stick in our memory more than the good ones. I will say that not everyone is cut out for customer service, and if you are a creator who does not have good people skills or you simply do not have the time to provide that service, it is time to get a good CSR.

very well said