Leaving The US -- Has Anybody Moved Or Are You Considering?

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said:

I'm not talking about Salvadoran refugees.   I'm talking about Mexican citizens coming to the US illegally and taking from us while our own people suffer.  Refugees and people coming to take jobs from American citizens are 2 different things.  

You can debate what is morally right until the cows come home.  It doesn't negate the fact that illegal immigration is...illegal. 

Yes, it peeves me they take jobs I don't want! But seriously, even back in the 80's when it was debated, I was on the side of educating "illegals". Because.

[Luna Bliss]

3 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

I'm not talking about Salvadoran refugees.   I'm talking about Mexican citizens coming to the US illegally and taking from us while our own people suffer.  Refugees and people coming to take jobs from American citizens are 2 different things.  

You can debate what is morally right until the cows come home.  It doesn't negate the fact that illegal immigration is...illegal. 

  

One... immigrants, both legal and illegal, tend do the jobs that others don't want. Many businesses would actually fold without them, and we aren't as concerned who is legal when we need workers.

Two...we have had a shortage of labor for ages since Covid and so we actually need workers.

Three...we have always shuffled immigrants around in the US for our benefit (understandable to a degree). When it serves us we allow their entry to do jobs that need doing, or when jobs are more tight we restrict entry. And when it serves us to create a panic about the brown people taking over then politicians drive segments of the population to their base by employing this noxious scare tactic -- nothing achieves this better than creating a fear of the "other" who seeks to take away our livelihood and replace us.

Four...allowing more people into the US and increasing the population would only take away jobs if there was a finite amount of jobs existing now and forever into infinity -- there is not. As a population grows it automatically creates more jobs -- the new people don't just "take jobs" because they also spend money...they shop for goods and services and so support jobs other people have. And so the nation grows.
For example, were all the jobs "used up" when the population of the US increased from say 250 million to 330 million?  Of course not. There was no job shortage, because each new citizen also became a consumer who purchased from other citizens and so facilitated the ability of additional people to support themselves through their own work as well, in effect creating more jobs.

Edited May 14, 2022 by Luna Bliss

[Randall Ahren]

3 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

  It doesn't negate the fact that illegal immigration is...illegal. 

It may be illegal, but is it immoral?

[Arielle Popstar]

58 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

One... immigrants, both legal and illegal, tend do the jobs that others don't want. Many businesses would actually fold without them, and we aren't as concerned who is legal when we need workers.

Two...we have had a shortage of labor for ages since Covid and so we actually need workers.

Three...we have always shuffled immigrants around in the US for our benefit (understandable to a degree). When it serves us we allow their entry to do jobs that need doing, or when jobs are more tight we restrict entry. And when it serves us to create a panic about the brown people taking over then politicians drive segments of the population to their base by employing this noxious scare tactic -- nothing achieves this better than creating a fear of the "other" who seeks to take away our livelihood and replace us.

Four...allowing more people into the US and increasing the population would only take away jobs if there was a finite amount of jobs existing now and forever into infinity -- there is not. As a population grows it automatically creates more jobs -- the new people don't just "take jobs" because they also spend money...they shop for goods and services and so support jobs other people have. And so the nation grows.
For example, were all the jobs "used up" when the population of the US increased from say 250 million to 330 million?  Of course not. There was no job shortage, because each new citizen also became a consumer who purchased from other citizens and so facilitated the ability of additional people to support themselves through their own work as well, in effect creating more jobs.

It certainly is good for the overlords as it keeps a glut in the labour pool allowing them to pay less as there is more competition for available jobs. Illegal immigrants are especially vulnerable to receiving cut rate wages but it keeps regular citizens on edge of course because they will have to take cuts in wages if they want to stay competitive or be replaced by the influx of legal and illegal immigrants flooding the country willing to work harder and for less money.

[Rowan Amore]

I have no problem with legal immigrants working at any job.  Illegal immigrants, IMO, are often treated as slave labor.  Are you ok with that?  It's a bit hypocritical of you to always be on the defensive about the less fortunate but it's ok if they're here illegally to use them to keep your business going?  What?

27 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

It certainly is good for the overlords as it keeps a glut in the labour pool allowing them to pay less as there is more competition for available jobs. Illegal immigrants are especially vulnerable to receiving cut rate wages but it keeps regular citizens on edge of course because they will have to take cuts in wages if they want to stay competitive or be replaced by the influx of legal and illegal immigrants flooding the country willing to work harder and for less money.

For once, I agree with you.  

[Finite]

28 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

It certainly is good for the overlords as it keeps a glut in the labour pool allowing them to pay less as there is more competition for available jobs. Illegal immigrants are especially vulnerable to receiving cut rate wages but it keeps regular citizens on edge of course because they will have to take cuts in wages if they want to stay competitive or be replaced by the influx of legal and illegal immigrants flooding the country willing to work harder and for less money.

If you want them to make a higher wage and be less of a bargaining chip against higher wage workeers then help them become legal. Otherwise those “overlords” will keep having an influx of low wage workers no matter how strict we are at the border. Immigrants always find a way. 
 

 

[Rowan Amore]

Coming in illegally is already one strike against you when trying to become a legal resident.  

[Rowan Amore]

1 hour ago, Randall Ahren said:

It may be illegal, but is it immoral?

By the definition of immoral, yes.

Immoral...deliberately violating accepted principles of right and wrong.  Something deemed illegal is wrong in the eyes of the law.

Again, I'm not talking about ALL immigrants.  Almost all of us in the US are from immigrant backgrounds.  The majority came in legally.  It's estimated that 20% or more of the US population is here illegally.  That is wrong.  

[Luna Bliss]

29 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I have no problem with legal immigrants working at any job.  Illegal immigrants, IMO, are often treated as slave labor.  Are you ok with that?  It's a bit hypocritical of you to always be on the defensive about the less fortunate but it's ok if they're here illegally to use them to keep your business going?  What?

Google could be your friend:
https://sgrlaw.com/employers-beware-fair-wage-laws-protect-undocumented-workers-in-more-ways-than-one/

And yeah, uh huh, that's exactly why I'm defending against all these ridiculous stereotypes you and LittleMe are coming up with about the brown people on the border coming to take our lives OMG -- I want them to be slaves to keep businesses going.

[Rowan Amore]

44 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Google could be your friend:
https://sgrlaw.com/employers-beware-fair-wage-laws-protect-undocumented-workers-in-more-ways-than-one/

And yeah, uh huh, that's exactly why I'm defending against all these ridiculous stereotypes you and LittleMe are coming up with about the brown people on the border coming to take our lives OMG -- I want them to be slaves to keep businesses going.

That's nice in a perfect world but we all know that's not how it actually works.  I'm not going to argue with you about it.  It's actually quite prevalent in the building trades which my husband is a member of.  Yes, they ARE taking jobs from Americans.  Nothing you can say or cite will change that fact.

I'm done.

[Randall Ahren]

1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said:

By the definition of immoral, yes.

Immoral...deliberately violating accepted principles of right and wrong.  Something deemed illegal is wrong in the eyes of the law.

You're missing the point. Something can be illegal, but not immoral. Smoking marijuana for example. It's illegal under US Federal law, but it's not viewed as immoral by the majority of the population.

 

[Coffee Pancake]

The bottom line is that every country wants more people, more people, more everything people do and need, more growth.

Legal immigration is fundamentally about picking the desirable, which often has more to do with where a person is from & race than anything else.

People new to a country will invariably be prepared to work for less to get a start, the solution isn't to prevent then coming, but to establish and enshrine labour protections into law so they aren't automatically the cheaper option.

The UK had a "problem" with polish plumbers taking plumbing jobs from brits. The cost of hiring a plumber wasn't lower, just the pay and working conditions for the immigrant who showed up to do the work. Blaming the immigrant is a political scapegoat that appeals to the basest instincts rather than addressing the actual problem that put them in that position.

In the UK, the scapegoat worked resulting in brexit, a fundamentally stupid decision for an island nation that depends on imported everything for basic survival. All of the promised benefits of separating from Europe evaporated.

[Rowan Amore]

58 minutes ago, Randall Ahren said:

You're missing the point. Something can be illegal, but not immoral. Smoking marijuana for example. It's illegal under US Federal law, but it's not viewed as immoral by the majority of the population.

 

You're missing My point.  I believe coming into our country illegally is morally wrong. If not, why not just let everyone in?  Why even bother with making anyone become a citizen?

Smoking marijuana is Federally illegal.  Individual states have made it legal.  Has any state made it legal to come into their state as an illegal immigrant?

[Randall Ahren]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

You're missing My point.  I believe coming into our country illegally is morally wrong.

Has any state made it legal to come into their state as an illegal immigrant?

You may believe that, but not everyone has the same belief. That's why  immigration laws are not being enforced.

Both California and Illinois have expanded public medical benefits to illegal immigrants. That's pretty welcoming of illegal immigrants.

[Finite]

Not all illegal immigrants came here illegally. That being said. Legal immigrants cost more to tax payers than illegal ones do. Illegal immigrants pay into a tax system they receive zero benefits from as they don’t qualify for any social programs or welfare. Legal immigrants do depending on their situation.

[Sid Nagy]

8 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Well, maybe.

But it is morally right for 20% of the world's population to have 80% of the wealth -- and a lot of that wealth sucked from the very countries who have so much less.   If you think so, then why?

I'm all for helping people in their own regions. Help developing their countries with better infrastructure, education, better payment for their goods.
Don't only provide them fish when they are hungry, teach them how to fish themselves as well.

But you are right, the western world is very selfish.
We could have done so much more for poor countries if we only really wanted to.

[Ceka Cianci]

The biggest problem I have with the gaps in border crossing has pretty much everything to do with human trafficking/ slavery.

It's the number one reason I am for all people  being vetted at the border..

I could give a rats ass how either political party thinks  it's good or bad for the economy.. How about how good or bad it is for slavery.

It turns my stomach to think about children and women being forced into the sex industry..

I'm sure those are jobs that most americans don't want.. Then there is those being forced into labor and so on..

They are nothing more than slaves!  Slavery is not gone, It's alive and doing well.

It's just been hidden a little better than it used to be.

All the political bla bla bla bla bullcrap aside. Just imagine what kind of life it must be to be stolen, then exported to a strange place,let alone all the things done to you on the travel there just to get your mind focused, that you don't belong to you anymore. But to be nothing more than someones slave to do with as they please..

It just rots my stomach thinking about it.

 

https://www.cbp.gov/border-security/human-trafficking

 

Human Trafficking

In 2000, Congress signed the Victims of Trafficking and Violence Protection Act into law, representing the beginning of a large-scale, coordinated effort by the United States government to fight human trafficking.

Twenty years later, human trafficking still remains prevalent. According to recent figures available (Source: Global Estimates of Modern Slavery: Forced Labour and Forced Marriage , Geneva, September 2017):

• At any given time in 2016, an estimated 40.3 million people are in modern slavery, including 24.9 million in forced labor and 15.4 million in forced marriage.
• It means there are 5.4 victims of modern slavery for every 1,000 people in the world.
• 1 in 4 victims of modern slavery are children.
• Out of the 24.9 million people trapped in forced labor, 16 million people are exploited in the private sector such as domestic work, construction or agriculture; 4.8 million persons in forced sexual exploitation, and 4 million persons in forced labor imposed by state authorities.
• Women and girls are disproportionately affected by forced labor, accounting for 99% of victims in the commercial sex industry, and 58% in other sectors

[Mollymews]

43 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

human trafficking

international human trafficking happens because there are nation border crossing restrictions.  If there were no restrictions then anybody who wanted to cross could do so

yes there might be still some evil people transporting kidnapped captives for evil purposes, but no more so than might be happening already between say Wales and England

edit add. A more apt international comparison, New Zealand and Australia which are independent sovereign nations

Edited May 14, 2022 by Mollymews

[Ceka Cianci]

I'm sure that would slow the cartels down.. hehehe

[Sid Nagy]

It is not about open or closed borders IMHO.
It is about scrupulous people making money with other peoples lives.
And a (western) world that looks away while perfectly knowing what is happening.  As long as we have our smartphones, cheap clothing, vacations in tropical resorts, an affordable car, and, and, and. We don't give a damn. Sometimes we have a moment that we remember things, but of we go in our rat race for more, more, more. Just as us has been told over and over to do from childhood on.
Opening up borders will not change that.
Only a world wide changing mind set would, but I don't count on that happening any time soon.
 

Edited May 14, 2022 by Sid Nagy

[Mollymews]

43 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

Only a world wide changing mind set would, but I don't count on that happening any time soon.
 

 

maybe is how it will go one day - The Earth Commonwealth. Same laws everywhere on earth and one judicial system, and can go anywhere on Earth that we want

not like them muskoveans who into The Mars Muskovian Empire and who can't go anywhere. Just have to work and live in their 996 factory for the glory of the people empire emperor

😺

[Love Zhaoying]

4 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Blaming the immigrant is a political scapegoat that appeals to the basest instincts rather than addressing the actual problem that put them in that position.

This!!'

[Love Zhaoying]

7 hours ago, Randall Ahren said:

It may be illegal, but is it immoral?

Great question! I wonder who, exactly, gets to decide what is "moral" vs. "immoral"?

[Rowan Amore]

7 hours ago, Finite said:

Not all illegal immigrants came here illegally. That being said. Legal immigrants cost more to tax payers than illegal ones do. Illegal immigrants pay into a tax system they receive zero benefits from as they don’t qualify for any social programs or welfare. Legal immigrants do depending on their situation.

Except when they give birth to children here.  Those children then receive benefits because they are automatically citizens.  THIS was my issue to begin with in this debate.  As I mentioned too, many illegal immigrants work off the books so they aren't paying into anything.

Edited May 14, 2022 by Rowan Amore

[Rowan Amore]

7 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

The bottom line is that every country wants more people, more people, more everything people do and need, more growth.

Legal immigration is fundamentally about picking the desirable, which often has more to do with where a person is from & race than anything else.

People new to a country will invariably be prepared to work for less to get a start, the solution isn't to prevent then coming, but to establish and enshrine labour protections into law so they aren't automatically the cheaper option.

The UK had a "problem" with polish plumbers taking plumbing jobs from brits. The cost of hiring a plumber wasn't lower, just the pay and working conditions for the immigrant who showed up to do the work. Blaming the immigrant is a political scapegoat that appeals to the basest instincts rather than addressing the actual problem that put them in that position.

In the UK, the scapegoat worked resulting in brexit, a fundamentally stupid decision for an island nation that depends on imported everything for basic survival. All of the promised benefits of separating from Europe evaporated.

I believe LEGAL immigration is great.  I have no issue whatsoever with people entering ANY country through the proper channels.