Leaving The US -- Has Anybody Moved Or Are You Considering?

[Luna Bliss]

16 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Thinking maybe US residents should be fighting the powers that allow those sort of healthcare costs.

How can we when certain factions believe in the power of the individual to do what he pleases with few limits? We worship this in the US.  In some less individualistic countries that value the community more than the individual there is less corruption.

A quote from a scholar I read:

“As the corporate-consumerist juggernaut that now defines the nation rolls on, the very factors that once propelled America to greatness-extreme individualism, territorial and economic expansion, and the pursuit of material wealth-are now paradoxically, the nails in our collective coffin.”

[Arielle Popstar]

43 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

How can we when certain factions believe in the power of the individual to do what he pleases with few limits? We worship this in the US.  In some less individualistic countries that value the community more than the individual there is less corruption.

A quote from a scholar I read:

“As the corporate-consumerist juggernaut that now defines the nation rolls on, the very factors that once propelled America to greatness-extreme individualism, territorial and economic expansion, and the pursuit of material wealth-are now paradoxically, the nails in our collective coffin.”

Just my opinion but it really strikes me you are fighting the wrong enemy if you really wanted better and cheaper healthcare in the USA. The individualists (aka conservatives) are likely just as interested in cheaper, more accessible healthcare as you are, so they aren't the one you need to fight. The ones that need to be focused on are those entities that make these costs so high. Entities like the FDA, CDC, NIH, AMA, Big Pharma, etc. Those are the ones that are rolling you over a barrel and sticking you with sky high medical care costs when the health care agencies in other countries use their power to get a better price and mandate the amount the medical staff can make on procedures.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

From 2018:

"A recent study reported that a single day in a hospital in the U.S. costs around $1,514 while according to the World Health Organization the healthcare costs in Mexico are less than $120. A routine doctor’s visit in the U.S. costs around $176, whereas in Mexico the cost of routine doctor visits is less than half this rate at around $40.

Yeowza. 

Lemme tell a quick little personal story since we're on the subject. Years ago, I met a guy from France - college student at a local state university. Long story short, he got into a massive car accident which left me believing the poor guy would never walk again (hit a tree - no one else hurt thank goodness). I visited him in the hospital every day - he was on like 4 different major pain meds (all the biggies at once) and required major, major leg surgery to get back on his feet. His hospital stay - over 1 month. Keep in mind - international student with only college-supplied health insurance here.

I had NO idea what the resulting costs of this would be, but let's just say once those bills started to hit (and other issues - the fool had been drinking so probably legal problems to follow), suddenly he called me up, told me to come over, told me he's going back to France, we said our goodbyes, and he was gone. Gave up everything - his university education, all of his professional contacts, a potential internship his mentor was negotiating with NASA = all of it. 

Now had that been an American student or worker (which I'm sure happens regularly, especially here - we have stupidly high DWI rates) - just imagine. Instant bankruptcy.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

43 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Just my opinion but it really strikes me you are fighting the wrong enemy if you really wanted better and cheaper healthcare in the USA. The individualists (aka conservatives) are likely just as interested in cheaper, more accessible healthcare as you are, so they aren't the one you need to fight. The ones that need to be focused on are those entities that make these costs so high. Entities like the FDA, CDC, NIH, AMA, Big Pharma, etc. 

This isn't really super on-topic but I'll just point out - Big Pharma heavily, heavily lobbies our government and pumps quite a ton of cash (billions) into both parties. So this isn't really a Rep/Dem thing - it's a both thing. The only way to "fight" anything is to essentially unravel all that and get the money out of politics entirely. Neither party as a whole is interested in making much change on this front. A few individual politicians mention it here and there, but the others don't take them very seriously when the topic comes up.

This is why you often get people just saying screw it and going abroad for their medical care. There isn't much we (meaning, the little people) can do at the moment.

[Sid Nagy]

17 hours ago, Doris Johnsky said:

Just for the record there are no free rides.  

If healthcare is cheap or free, then expect taxes to be high.  It's not cheap or free. Your taxes pay for it.

And don't forget, you will need to add something for the country you are going to.
Like having specific wanted skills or being rich enough to support yourself.
Being American is not enough to qualify for a long term stay other than a max 3 months vacation.

Edited May 13, 2022 by Sid Nagy

[Maureen Boccaccio]

On 5/6/2022 at 1:32 PM, Love Zhaoying said:

My birth-mother used to drive over to get meds.

My in-laws used to do this all the time.

[LittleMe Jewell]

I see all these comments about how difficult it is for Americans to move to another country, yet those of us that don't want to allow unrestricted immigration to the US get slammed all the time, by both folks from inside the US and from other countries.  Why is it okay for other countries to have strict immigration laws and yet some folks think the US should have very lax immigration laws?  What am I missing here?

[LittleMe Jewell]

On 5/6/2022 at 11:31 AM, Ayashe Ninetails said:

I used to know someone who would hop over to Mexico for medical care that he couldn't afford here. I'm not sure how he did that exactly - maybe had family who lived there or something, but that's when I started telling myself high crime shouldn't necessarily be a deterrent and added a few more places to the list. Yolo!

 

My parents live outside of Phoenix, AZ.  They used to drive down to Mexico for dental and eye care.  They stopped doing so when the cartel violence started escalating in the border towns that they were going to.

[Theresa Tennyson]

11 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I see all these comments about how difficult it is for Americans to move to another country, yet those of us that don't want to allow unrestricted immigration to the US get slammed all the time, by both folks from inside the US and from other countries.  Why is it okay for other countries to have strict immigration laws and yet some folks think the US should have very lax immigration laws?  What am I missing here?

Who's saying that other countries' strict immigration laws are okay?

[LittleMe Jewell]

5 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Who's saying that other countries' strict immigration laws are okay?

I just got the impression from the comments here that while many people see the immigration rules of other countries as difficult, they don't see it as 'morally wrong' per se.  Whereas, it definitely seems that many think the US immigration laws are morally wrong.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

11 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

My parents live outside of Phoenix, AZ.  They used to drive down to Mexico for dental and eye care.  They stopped doing so when the cartel violence started escalating in the border towns that they were going to.

I totally understand why that would deter people from continuing to go there, yeah. Same with my uncle who used to travel quite frequently to Brazil. It just got too dangerous to keep going on a regular basis (he got most of his dental work done there, too).

But seeing as how I'm living right smack in MS-13 territory, I guess I'm not overly fazed. 😂 I shouldn't laugh as there are several nearby cases of people getting caught in crossfire just sitting at traffic lights, but it's one of those "laugh to keep from crying" type of dealios. I know Mexico isn't guaranteed to be much safer, but I'm not really seriously considering that as an option anyway.

[Sammy Huntsman]

I am a Canadian that wants to move to the US just to be with my partner. That or Europe

[Theresa Tennyson]

On 5/12/2022 at 1:30 PM, Luna Bliss said:

 

I wonder how much better it would be for POC in specific countries in Europe today. My impression is that in the past it was better for POC, but there seems to be such resistance to migrants today, with darker skin tones especially. I doubt it's on par with what POC in the US experience though. 

Here's the thing...

In most cultures one or a few "different" people are tolerated, especially if they are good at singing and dancing and/or making tasty food. It's when there are enough of them to change life for the main group that people start getting shirty.

I'd actually say that the United States of America is well ahead of most other nations in this regard. "American-ness" has changed over time. Doesn't mean that everyone liked it, but it has. If you ask a Real American who is worried about being Replaced what a Real American is like, they'd probably mention things like eating spaghetti and getting drunk on St. Patrick's Day and putting up Christmas trees. Funny thing is, all of those things became part of "American-ness" from groups that other "Americans" were not at all happy about coming over at the time. 

When you are tempted to complain about Columbus Day, you should bear in mind that it isn't really about a certain geographically-challenged explorer. It's actually about a semi-fictional Italian Catholic superhero that was named after him - it should more properly be called "Italians and Catholics Aren't Really So Bad Day.". It was less than 100 years ago that the Ku Klux Klan was picketing the Democratic National Convention because they might have nominated a Catholic. Wellll, today Catholics aren't exactly lacking political power, are they?

When I hear Europeans criticizing American* identity clashes I feel like pointing out that America* has done a deeply flawed job of doing something that most cultures haven't even tried.

--------------

*Yes, "America" technically contains countries other than the United States of America, and the vast majority of "Americans" came from somewhere else. Happy?

 

[Sid Nagy]

Just one question, if it is so easy to immigrate into the USA as some here think, why exactly was mr Trump so keen to build his wall along the Mexican border?

The US was an immigration country, that needed people. But that is already no longer the case for decades.

Same goes for Europe that is much more densely populated than the USA.
We don't have the space nor the job opportunities to let everybody in that wants to come.

Every year thousands and thousands of Africans try to get illegally into Europe in the hope to secure a better life for themselves, without a real chance of succeeding.

 

 

Edited May 13, 2022 by Sid Nagy

[LittleMe Jewell]

16 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

Just one question, if it is so easy to immigrate into the USA as some here think, why exactly was mr Trump so keen to build his wall along the Mexican border?

 

I don't think it is too easy to become a citizen in the US, but it apparently is pretty easy to come into the country illegally, via various routes.  The southern border is known for a lot of illegal immigration -- hence why Trump wanted a wall there.  

Even if one cannot easily become a citizen, once you get into the country, you actually can get many benefits even if you are here illegally.  One report I read earlier this year estimated that there were roughly 11.35 million illegal immigrants in the US.

ETA:  A quick search shows that the total number of illegal immigrants in 32 countries in Europe was estimated at 3.9-4.8 million in 2017.  For that same year, it was estimated that there were 10.5 million illegal immigrants in the US.

Edited May 13, 2022 by LittleMe Jewell

[Ayashe Ninetails]

Visa overstays tend to be more common.

[Lindal Kidd]

3 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

One report I read earlier this year estimated that there were roughly 11.35 million illegal immigrants in the US.

I'm not at all surprised. This country used to welcome immigrants. These days it can take 20 years to get citizenship, if you can manage it at all. We seriously need immigration reform, and not in ways that keep more people out.

[Sammy Huntsman]

2 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

I'm not at all surprised. This country used to welcome immigrants. These days it can take 20 years to get citizenship, if you can manage it at all. We seriously need immigration reform, and not in ways that keep more people out.

But I mean there are ways that people who don't want to live in their original country can get in, without all the paperwork. I mean people can go to border guards and ask to seek asylum and they will help. I mean people who overstay their visas, need to see the visas office. However, just sneaking their way in shouldn't be allowed. 

[Sammy Huntsman]

5 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

I'm not at all surprised. This country used to welcome immigrants. These days it can take 20 years to get citizenship, if you can manage it at all. We seriously need immigration reform, and not in ways that keep more people out.

I should also ask, what kinda reform would you want? When it comes to immigration. 

 

[Luna Bliss]

8 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

The southern border is known for a lot of illegal immigration -- hence why Trump wanted a wall there.  

Even if one cannot easily become a citizen, once you get into the country, you actually can get many benefits even if you are here illegally. 

No, the ultra-MAGA peeps want a Nationalistic type country not based on democracy and the rule of law , and where whites are prominent, and the Wall became a symbol of that.  Build that wall. Build that wall!  (big chant at MAGA rallies).

I'm all for competent immigration policies for all countries, but what you've said is not true -- you don't get many benefits if you're here illegally:

"The major federal public benefits programs have long excluded some non–U.S. citizens from eligibility for assistance. Programs such as the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP, formerly known as the Food Stamp Program), nonemergency Medicaid, Supplemental Security Income (SSI), and Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF) and its precursor, Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC), were largely unavailable to undocumented immigrants and people in the United States on temporary visas.

However, the 1996 federal welfare and immigration laws introduced an unprecedented era of restrictionism.^[1] Prior to the enactment of these laws, lawful permanent residents of the U.S. generally were eligible for assistance in a manner similar to U.S. citizens. Once the laws were implemented, most lawfully residing immigrants were barred from receiving assistance under the major federal benefits programs for five years or longer.

Even where eligibility for immigrants was preserved by the 1996 laws or restored by subsequent legislation, many immigrant families hesitate to enroll in critical health care, job-training, nutrition, and cash assistance programs due to fear and confusion caused by the laws’ complexity and other intimidating factors. As a result, the participation of immigrants in public benefits programs decreased sharply after passage of the 1996 laws, causing severe hardship for many low-income immigrant families who lacked the support available to other low-income families.^[2]

Efforts to address the chilling effects and confusion have continued since that time. The Trump administration’s exclusionary policies compounded the problem, making it even more difficult to ensure that eligible immigrants and their family members would secure services.

This article focuses on eligibility and other rules governing immigrants’ access to federal public benefits programs. Many states have attempted to fill some of the gaps in noncitizen coverage resulting from the 1996 laws, either by electing federal options to cover more eligible noncitizens or by spending state funds to cover at least some of the immigrants who are ineligible for federally funded services.

In determining an immigrant’s eligibility for benefits, it is necessary to understand the federal rules as well as the rules of the state in which an immigrant resides. Updates on federal and state rules are available on NILC’s website.^[3]"

https://www.nilc.org/issues/economic-support/overview-immeligfedprograms/

[Luna Bliss]

21 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

why exactly was mr Trump so keen to build his wall along the Mexican border?

Politicization, rallying his base around excluding the brown people.  Ultra-MAGA peeps want a top-down order where they are, of course, at the top.

*You know, the F word most Americans can't quite say yet.

Edited May 13, 2022 by Luna Bliss

[Theresa Tennyson]

18 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

Just one question, if it is so easy to immigrate into the USA as some here think, why exactly was mr Trump so keen to build his wall along the Mexican border?
 

Pick one:

1) He didn't understand the concept of "boats."

2) It would play well to an audience of Real Americans eating spaghetti next to their Christmas trees.

[Luna Bliss]

40 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Here's the thing...

In most cultures one or a few "different" people are tolerated, especially if they are good at singing and dancing and/or making tasty food. It's when there are enough of them to change life for the main group that people start getting shirty.

I'd actually say that the United States of America is well ahead of most other nations in this regard. "American-ness" has changed over time. Doesn't mean that everyone liked it, but it has. If you ask a Real American who is worried about being Replaced what a Real American is like, they'd probably mention things like eating spaghetti and getting drunk on St. Patrick's Day and putting up Christmas trees. Funny thing is, all of those things became part of "American-ness" from groups that other "Americans" were not at all happy about coming over at the time. 

When you are tempted to complain about Columbus Day, you should bear in mind that it isn't really about a certain geographically-challenged explorer. It's actually about a semi-fictional Italian Catholic superhero that was named after him - it should more properly be called "Italians and Catholics Aren't Really So Bad Day.". It was less than 100 years ago that the Ku Klux Klan was picketing the Democratic National Convention because they might have nominated a Catholic. Wellll, today Catholics aren't exactly lacking political power, are they?

When I hear Europeans criticizing American* identity clashes I feel like pointing out that America* has done a deeply flawed job of doing something that most cultures haven't even tried.

--------------

*Yes, "America" technically contains countries other than the United States of America, and the vast majority of "Americans" came from somewhere else. Happy?

 

Yes, and I've about had it with the America bashers regarding this issue.

Fine to bash these MAGA idiots though who are creating Gillead before our eyes and planning to remove even more civil rights.

[Luna Bliss]

2 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I just got the impression from the comments here that while many people see the immigration rules of other countries as difficult, they don't see it as 'morally wrong' per se.  Whereas, it definitely seems that many think the US immigration laws are morally wrong.

I think some of the laws are morally wrong, but not all -- like separating kids from mothers. I can't remember now how many hundreds are still not reunited.

We really screwed over some Central American countries in the 80's, and it's still affecting these countries to this day, and this is one of the main reasons some think we should help them although they don't bring a lot of economic benefit in the way other countries structure their immigration policies to enhance their economy with highly skilled immigrants.

[LittleMe Jewell]

19 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I'm all for competent immigration policies for all countries, but what you've said is not true -- you don't get many benefits if you're here illegally:

Much of that depends on where you live and how liberal your state/county/city is.  If you are illegal, come to Colorado.  You no longer have to prove legal status to get various medical benefits, as well as housing assistance, a driver license, or various professional licenses & certifications. I'm also pretty sure that our public education system is free to all, no matter one's immigration status.