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Leaving The US -- Has Anybody Moved Or Are You Considering?


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21 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

That's kind of a 'western civilization' thing in general though isn't it, where the 'other' is often viewed as inferior and exists for us to compete against and dominate rather than respect and learn from  -- the main thrust of Empire on both sides of the pond as it colonized the entire world.

I think the rule about who is the foreigner when you're moving or visiting abroad is something everybody should keep in mind.

But apart from that, remember that unless we go all the way back to late medieval times, the "European imperial colonial power" stereotype only really applies to two countries, England and Russia and to some degreee to two others, France and the Netherlands. There were other European countries that had colonies of course but those were the big ones and many, perhaps most, European nations were effectively colonies themselves - some still are.

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18 hours ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

I'll admit - it never used to bother me as a kid or a teen and I've always lived in neighborhoods and went to schools where I was the odd one out, but past a certain point, it started giving me major anxiety. The years of being followed around stores just trying to shop, having things yelled at me while on dates, being questioned, being afraid to drive, being afraid to walk around as a woman in general, like a million other things all of a sudden hit me in my 20s, especially. I think my brain just up and fried one day. 

I'll never forget the evening I was walking around my neighborhood in Oxford England (I moved out of London to save money and picked an area that was super super diverse) with my boyfriend and a couple friends and I stopped right in my tracks and blurted out - "OMG I forgot I was black!" And they all turned to me like girl are you okay (lol they were all white) and I'm like oh crap did I say that out loud? Sorry just got caught up in the moment! And they all just stared at me like ok go on girl live your life LOL. But it was such a massive weight off my chest when I realized I was just doing stuff. I could just...walk around, and nobody was following me or being a jerk despite being in an interracial relationship and hanging out with a bunch of guys who don't look like me. They finally understood somewhat once I was able to calm down and explain it more, but we laughed so hard over that because I damn near yelled that in the middle of the street, oops! Omg, I had to admit that was pretty funny.

Then I came back to the US and my brain broke again, LOL.

Your story is heartwarming to me.
It's very special when difficult experiences can be mitigated by the healing presence of others, responding in ways quite the opposite of the insensitive jerks encountered previously. I hope you can find a 'suburb of London experience' again, someplace.

I've had similar experiences, where confrontation with the oppressors of the world was made more bearable by supportive people who championed my cause even though it wasn't 'really theirs', and even when they weren't from the same country -- I'll always cherish them.

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3 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

 I hope you can find a 'suburb of London experience' again, someplace.

Thanks! That's the dream right there!

I somehow magically found myself living right around the corner from a major street that had every type of culture you could imagine all living and working side-by-side. A Greek market next to a Japanese restaurant across from an Indian restaurant next to an Italian grocer next to a kebab takeout across from a Jamaican dine-in restaurant next to a Lebanese restaurant next to a pizza place next to an African restaurant. Mixed in with pubs and other stores and businesses. On and on for what felt like miles (but was like, half a mile lol).

Being there was the safest I ever felt and I guess it all got to be a bit overwhelming, in a positive way. Everyone was just so dang nice and you could wander around at all hours and find people doing the same. For the first time ever it felt like I found a place I could call home.

Now finding that again someplace else, I'm not quite so sure!

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7 hours ago, ChinRey said:

But apart from that, remember that unless we go all the way back to late medieval times, the "European imperial colonial power" stereotype only really applies to two countries, England and Russia and to some degreee to two others, France and the Netherlands. There were other European countries that had colonies of course but those were the big ones and many, perhaps most, European nations were effectively colonies themselves - some still are.

Spain and Portugal produced two of the most brutal, literally genocidal empires. The Belgian Congo -- which in fairness, was the "personal possession" of the King of Belgium -- was so brutally run that there was an international outcry against it even 130 years ago. Italy, a latecomer, had a small but nasty little African empire: they conquered Ethiopia in part by using poison gas against indigenous troops. France continues to interfere in the affairs of their former African colonies, because they have "special interests" there.

ETA: Oh, forgot Germany, who were involved in the late 19th-century rush to gobble up the African interior.

Edited by Scylla Rhiadra
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3 hours ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Thanks! That's the dream right there!

I somehow magically found myself living right around the corner from a major street that had every type of culture you could imagine all living and working side-by-side. A Greek market next to a Japanese restaurant across from an Indian restaurant next to an Italian grocer next to a kebab takeout across from a Jamaican dine-in restaurant next to a Lebanese restaurant next to a pizza place next to an African restaurant. Mixed in with pubs and other stores and businesses. On and on for what felt like miles (but was like, half a mile lol).

Being there was the safest I ever felt and I guess it all got to be a bit overwhelming, in a positive way. Everyone was just so dang nice and you could wander around at all hours and find people doing the same. For the first time ever it felt like I found a place I could call home.

Now finding that again someplace else, I'm not quite so sure!

That sounds like a diverse heaven!  

Where to go....it seemed in recent years the US was becoming a better place for people of color, but now it seems to be getting worse. I just read an article that was depressing, and yet it gave me a strange sense of peace. Several scholars specializing in civil rights said it's going to be a rough time for at least 10 years for those concerned with civil rights or the acceptance of diversity. So depressing, but caused me to realize there is little hope at this point, and so I relaxed into that reality instead of fighting to find some way to fix the country.  So I just want to leave.

I read an interesting quote a couple days ago that said you hate a traitor worse than an enemy. And I guess that's how I feel...extreme anger toward a country that held the promise of freedom,  a country that at least seemed to be moving toward that, but it betrayed me. So this is a traitor country, and even a move to a country somewhat similar to the US in terms of civil rights would feel better because I never expected more from it.

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6 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Where to go....it seemed in recent years the US was becoming a better place for people of color, but now it seems to be getting worse

That's definitely regional. Maybe. Don't go by me, though. I'm rather cynical lol. I can't think of a single place I've been to in the US where things felt better. You could maybe trick yourself into thinking NYC is fine (which I did for a long time), but...dig a little harder and nope!

Where to go is always an interesting question to me. I've read through so many articles and rankings of best cities, best countries, etc. But once I start digging deeper - nope, definitely not for me. I've been to some pretty nice places, but nothing that screamed "everybody's welcome!" quite like Oxford did (at least my area of it anyway). The Caribbean maybe, since so many people from all over flock there for retirement and visit on vacation and show up on cruise ships because of the great weather and beaches, but then you'll be dodging storms! 😵

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11 hours ago, ChinRey said:

I think the rule about who is the foreigner when you're moving or visiting abroad is something everybody should keep in mind.

But apart from that, remember that unless we go all the way back to late medieval times, the "European imperial colonial power" stereotype only really applies to two countries, England and Russia and to some degreee to two others, France and the Netherlands. There were other European countries that had colonies of course but those were the big ones and many, perhaps most, European nations were effectively colonies themselves - some still are.

What about Spain and Portugal? Why are you excluding those two countries?

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9 hours ago, Randall Ahren said:

What about Spain and Portugal? Why are you excluding those two countries?

I didn't exclude them, I said that other European countries had some colonies too. Spain and Portugal used to be big in colonization, they were the ones who started it. But that was back in medieval times, almost 500 years ago.

But anyway, my point is that "Europe" didn not colonize the world, some European countries did. 33 of the current 44 European countries never did. I live in one of those 33 and it annoys the H... out of me when people make sweeping statements about Europe blaming us for things we had no part in.

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14 hours ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

That's definitely regional. Maybe. Don't go by me, though. I'm rather cynical lol. I can't think of a single place I've been to in the US where things felt better. You could maybe trick yourself into thinking NYC is fine (which I did for a long time), but...dig a little harder and nope!

Where to go is always an interesting question to me. I've read through so many articles and rankings of best cities, best countries, etc. But once I start digging deeper - nope, definitely not for me. I've been to some pretty nice places, but nothing that screamed "everybody's welcome!" quite like Oxford did (at least my area of it anyway). The Caribbean maybe, since so many people from all over flock there for retirement and visit on vacation and show up on cruise ships because of the great weather and beaches, but then you'll be dodging storms! 😵

In the U.S. the cities are the worst for inclusiveness.. They are usually divided up into ethnic areas..

A lot of people give the rural areas a hard time, when the cities are just dripping with divisiveness..

The farther you get away from them the smaller the populations of the area and people knowing more of their neighbors..  Small town people for the most part are always curious about anyone new to their town.. About any one that I've been to, you pretty much have a mix of people living right by each other..

 

I know this much for sure.. If we would have stayed in Chicago, we wouldn't have budged an inch  forward.. Only when we got out of that city and moved to Tennessee and got land did we start to improve our lives..

It took a lot to pull out of that trap too..  I'm just so glad and feel so fortunate for having a father that could pull that off.. it's hard to get out when the hooks are already in ya.. hehehehe

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2 hours ago, Ceka Cianci said:

A lot of people give the rural areas a hard time, when the cities are just dripping with divisiveness..

yeah that stereotype of the uneducated & prejudiced "hick" as existing only in rural areas needs to go doesn't it...

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16 hours ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:
17 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Where to go....it seemed in recent years the US was becoming a better place for people of color, but now it seems to be getting worse

That's definitely regional. Maybe. Don't go by me, though. I'm rather cynical lol. I can't think of a single place I've been to in the US where things felt better. You could maybe trick yourself into thinking NYC is fine (which I did for a long time), but...dig a little harder and nope!

That was one of my fuzzier paragraphs, so let me clarify a bit. By recent years I mean the years since the civil rights era of the 50's and 60's up to the MAGA hat times. During this time period I see an improvement in how we view Black people, LGBTQ+ people, women, the disabled, the poor...all marginalized groups really. But only an improvement, as if society began to head in the right direction, and not amounting to total equality for marginalized groups in the least. And I have no idea if these improvements would apply to your situation of wanting to feel safe as you walk the streets.

For example, we began to see those in marginalized groups portrayed in the media in a more favorable light (media is often a reflection of society, but can create reality too). Black people in media were not only black-faced entertainers, mammy figures, criminals in the Hood, or servants to white people anymore, and women embodied positions of authority and self-determination and not only depicted as extensions of men or childbearing vessels, and LGBTQ+ people began to have roles similar to their straight counterparts and not always characterized as mentally sick individuals and pedos anymore.

Positions of authority in society and the arts/sports also saw an influx of members of these marginalized groups in greater numbers. And Black people even got to go through the front door and sit in the front of a bus!!   *sad laugh*

So...we began to move out of these stereotyped definitions, demonstrating the full range of characteristics inherent in members of marginalized groups rather than placing our definitions on them. When people can define themselves, when they have a voice, that is power.

Of course underneath this has been what we now call the MAGA movement...it was always there resisting the changes...it's just that now it has grown even larger and wears a bright red hat. Make America Great Again?  It's code for make America the world of the straight, white male again and anyone else should be invisible or at least in their "proper" place.

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2 hours ago, Ceka Cianci said:

In the U.S. the cities are the worst for inclusiveness.. They are usually divided up into ethnic areas..

A lot of people give the rural areas a hard time, when the cities are just dripping with divisiveness..

The farther you get away from them the smaller the populations of the area and people knowing more of their neighbors..  Small town people for the most part are always curious about anyone new to their town.. About any one that I've been to, you pretty much have a mix of people living right by each other..

 

I know this much for sure.. If we would have stayed in Chicago, we wouldn't have budged an inch  forward.. Only when we got out of that city and moved to Tennessee and got land did we start to improve our lives..

It took a lot to pull out of that trap too..  I'm just so glad and feel so fortunate for having a father that could pull that off.. it's hard to get out when the hooks are already in ya.. hehehehe

Totally get what you mean there, but that may also be quite regional.

I'm in the suburbs, so definitely not rural and a good hour or so outside of NYC, however, I'm sandwiched between a fairly prominent international gang and a...quite vocal red base, let's say. My region of NY has always been a bit spotty that way. You can find little mixed neighborhoods throughout, but everything is so so so jammed so close together, it only takes a good 5-10 minute drive to find yourself in very hostile territory. And hostile in that sense means everything from accidentally stumbling into some gang-related beef all the way to "we don't like ur kind round here" vibes. Total polar opposite depending on the direction you drive in.

My immediate neighborhood is not too bad - pretty diverse. But we're a tiny little safe haven (well, "safe," all things considered) in a big ole region full of WTF.

I've spent a little time in other states, and I've been to some of the more rural regions. The problem (for me) with moving to a small town in like Tennessee, or Louisiana, or Texas, or freaking...Nebraska (do not even ask me about driving through that state oh my god) is I'd be at the mercy of the state government and local PD.

I can complain a TON about New York, and NYPD is...definitely something, but the local dept out here is not too bad. Not ideal, still very shady, kinda lazy, that intruder you're calling about might actually manage to take your whole damn front door off before they cruise leisurely at 20 mph over to you but still get paid like whoa, might show up eating or not at all...but that's about it. I've definitely seen/heard worse. A LOT worse (obviously!). As for the government, well, I can still vote here very easily, so... 😂 Actual rights are the only thing I don't need to worry about.

 

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6 minutes ago, SarahKB7 Koskinen said:

If you are considering leaving the US, then please leave those issues which forced you to leave behind too. Don't simply move yourself and transplant those issues or culture into the new host country.

Yeah, and be prepared for a whole host of issues local to that new host country. Canada seemed so innocent from afar; up close it's a different story:

(I can't bring myself to touch anything on Spotify now, but this is just one story in a true horror show of Canadian history.)

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3 hours ago, ChinRey said:

I didn't exclude them, I said that other European countries had some colonies too. Spain and Portugal used to be big in colonization, they were the ones who started it. But that was back in medieval times, almost 500 years ago.

But anyway, my point is that "Europe" didn not colonize the world, some European countries did. 33 of the current 44 European countries never did. I live in one of those 33 and it annoys the H... out of me when people make sweeping statements about Europe blaming us for things we had no part in.

My point, after you characterized a good part of the US as rude people who have a greater tendency to disrespect people they encounter in other countries, was to say that ALL people have this colonizing MINDSET -- forcing others to be the same as they are and denigrating those who are not.
But if you want to talk about colonialism, Norway doesn't get off scot- free:

The colonialism of Denmark-Norway and its legacies 

"Overshadowed by British and French Imperialism, the small-scale colonialism of some of the Nordic countries can all too easily be downplayed. From the 19th century, the self-image of the Nordic countries as a group of small, neutral nations has probably perpetuated this misconception. However, Denmark-Norway engaged in a variety of colonial activities throughout the world from the 17th century which still have legacies today. On a lesser scale compared to other colonial powers, its colonalism was characterised by different contexts - some of them brutal - in the Caribbean, West Africa, India and Greenland".
https://nordics.info/show/artikel/the-colonialism-of-denmark-norway-and-its-legacies

Do I need to describe what Norway did to the indigenous Sami people of Norway in recent years?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegianization

https://www.radicalrightanalysis.com/2019/12/22/harassment-and-attacks-on-the-indigenous-sami-and-industrial-colonialism-in-norway/

"In 2019, the harassment, attacks and conspiracy theories targeted at the Sámi population in Norway are on the increase. The abuse is particularly ugly on social media and – for the first time in Norwegian history – a man was charged with hate speech on Facebook against a Sámi person and sentenced to 18 days in prison and fined".

Edited by Luna Bliss
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31 minutes ago, SarahKB7 Koskinen said:

If you are considering leaving the US, then please leave those issues which forced you to leave behind too. Don't simply move yourself and transplant those issues or culture into the new host country.

As I am trying to point out, we can't leave them behind in the US when they exist in the other countries we might move to.

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1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

And I have no idea if these improvements would apply to your situation of wanting to feel safe as you walk the streets.

Nope. In fact, I don't really see those improvements as much more than theater, in a sense. Some of what you describe just became less...fashionable? It's not the cool thing to do anymore, people said hey don't do that, so they stopped doing it. That doesn't mean some people don't still feel that way - and it all comes out when you least expect it.

I found that out as a teen. Meet a guy, damn his parents are cool! Super nice, really friendly. Start dating him - yeeeeeah... 😂

Like I said though, I'm just massively cynical. Someone else might appreciate how far *cough cough* things have come.

Personally? I just want out.

nanie-so-done.gif

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31 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Totally get what you mean there, but that may also be quite regional.

I'm in the suburbs, so definitely not rural and a good hour or so outside of NYC, however, I'm sandwiched between a fairly prominent international gang and a...quite vocal red base, let's say. My region of NY has always been a bit spotty that way. You can find little mixed neighborhoods throughout, but everything is so so so jammed so close together, it only takes a good 5-10 minute drive to find yourself in very hostile territory. And hostile in that sense means everything from accidentally stumbling into some gang-related beef all the way to "we don't like ur kind round here" vibes. Total polar opposite depending on the direction you drive in.

My immediate neighborhood is not too bad - pretty diverse. But we're a tiny little safe haven (well, "safe," all things considered) in a big ole region full of WTF.

I've spent a little time in other states, and I've been to some of the more rural regions. The problem (for me) with moving to a small town in like Tennessee, or Louisiana, or Texas, or freaking...Nebraska (do not even ask me about driving through that state oh my god) is I'd be at the mercy of the state government and local PD.

I can complain a TON about New York, and NYPD is...definitely something, but the local dept out here is not too bad. Not ideal, still very shady, kinda lazy, that intruder you're calling about might actually manage to take your whole damn front door off before they cruise leisurely at 20 mph over to you but still get paid like whoa, might show up eating or not at all...but that's about it. I've definitely seen/heard worse. A LOT worse (obviously!). As for the government, well, I can still vote here very easily, so... 😂 Actual rights are the only thing I don't need to worry about.

 

I used to live in the inner city.. I can relate to what you mean by the borders..

In Chicago, you could be fine on one block and turn the corner and cross a line..

We went to rush street one night when we went back up there.. we started to walk down the street a bit and turned where we thought there was another club.. These guys started walking towards us..  we went back the other way and these other guys seen us coming back around and said you don't wanna go down there..

It was like right when we turned the corner too..

My father said, it got really bad after they took out the main gang leaders from the black gangs back in the 80's.. Now it's all micro gangs and nobody really in control..

The Latin gangs Didn't have their main leaders taken out  are thriving and have more power over the city and no micro gang wars..

In fact the second riches road in Chicago just under Michigan avenue is 26th, which is Latin king area.. A lot of gang members are running legit businesses down that road.

When the riots were tearing up chicago down 26th, They got stopped cold as soon as they hit Latin king territory.. Not a window broken.. hehehe

 

I'm actually lost right now because things were just shooting through my mind as they were coming back to me.. So I'm gonna stop because I'm about worn out now.. hehehehe

Sorry for the rambling.. some days I just get one thing leading into another and so side tracked I wear myself out on the matter.. hehehehe

I think I'm not used to making such big posts anymore.. I'm usually quick hitting.. hehehehe

Edited by Ceka Cianci
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7 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:
1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

And I have no idea if these improvements would apply to your situation of wanting to feel safe as you walk the streets.

Nope. In fact, I don't really see those improvements as much more than theater, in a sense. Some of what you describe just became less...fashionable? It's not the cool thing to do anymore, people said hey don't do that, so they stopped doing it. That doesn't mean some people don't still feel that way - and it all comes out when you least expect it.

I found that out as a teen. Meet a guy, damn his parents are cool! Super nice, really friendly. Start dating him - yeeeeeah... 😂

Like I said though, I'm just massively cynical. Someone else might appreciate how far *cough cough* things have come.

Personally? I just want out.

But Ayashe, Soneque Martin-Green is a Black woman captain of Star Trek now! 🤣🤣
Have you ever encountered people saying there is no prejudice against Blacks now that we had a Black president?   I have... 

Sonequa.jpg

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8 minutes ago, SarahKB7 Koskinen said:

Then don't move. Your problem is your own culture. Moving elsewhere won't fix the problem, it will just spread it elsewhere and exacerbate it.

Solution: Change your own culture, not somewhere elses.

As I said earlier, as MAGA and their enablers took hold (30% of the population or 70 million plus residents) I began feeling betrayed by my country, and so moving to another country that had similar prejudices would not feel as bad to me as I never expected anything more from the new place.

People may hate their enemies, but they hate a traitor even more, so they say.

And how would ME and my half Native American grandson moving to Mexico, where his dark coloring would be less of a problem, exacerbate the prejudice that exists pretty much everywhere a western mindset tried to dominate reality?

Plus...they allow abortion in Mexico in some states, and there is marriage equality for gays (which is on the chopping block here once they remove abortion rights).

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12 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

Sorry for the rambling.. some days I just get one thing leading into another and so side tracked I wear myself out on the matter.. hehehehe

LOL no worries! You're totally fine. That same thing happens to me, too. 

 

7 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

But Ayashe, Soneque Martin-Green is a Black woman captain of Star Trek now! 🤣🤣
Have you ever encountered people saying there is no prejudice against Blacks now that we had a Black president?   I have... 

Sonequa.jpg

And all my broken brain thinks is "I wonder how many threatened to boycott the show over that." LOL.

And yes I have. 

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@Ayashe Ninetails

I liked your sentiments earlier about just getting rid of EVERYthing, bringing nothing but your backpack to your new environment.

But I'm having trouble getting rid of all my stuff...there's some dishes that belonged to a relative...captured in the first draft of this unfinished poem:

But The Dishes

she traveled west to this prairie land in a covered wagon
her tiny body jumping out to cry "it's so dusty I hate it!!!"
she made her home here, my great grandmother

i was alone with her once
in the dusty basement of my childhood home
as a tornado ripped through the neighborhood
she, close to 100, and me, maybe 2
the only ones too fragile to climb the basement stairs

as I prepare to exit this grand country
where covered wagons trekked west
seeking freedom and a better life
i find a treasure
a box of gold rimmed dishes with blue etchings
it's all I have of her

Edited by Luna Bliss
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