Music Club Peeve & A Bit of Overdue Ranting

[Syo Emerald]

On 1/28/2022 at 11:11 PM, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I have a feeling that you're on European time, so this might not work . . . but The Mercury Room does wonderful vintage jazz on Sunday nights, starting around 7pm or 8pm SLT. Lovely people, LOTS of open chatter (mostly interesting and intelligent), no gesture spam, no begging for tips. Just really calm and relaxing and friendly, with great music and a 30s ambience. And @Solar Legion, anthropomorphic avatars are entirely welcome. (There are animated penguins skating around on the dance floor, as well a large stuffed moose and a bear. Oh, and Bernie Sanders.)

Or, for more modern music in a variety of genres, try The Velvet. Again, lots of chatter, really friendly people, no begging for tips or gesture spam. They have stuff going on most late afternoons / evenings SL time.

Yes, sadly I am on european timezone. I'm going to miss out on everything happening past 2pm SLT more or less.

[Rowan Amore]

1 hour ago, Amanda Crisp said:

Hopefully this is not Necroposting, but my situation has evolved since I replied last week and I thought it might be of interest to those with concerns about Club Staff in SL.

To whit; Guests who “Game” contests very nearly convinced me to hang up my headset and make SL photography my hobby after doing the DJ thing for not-a-few years.

As was mentioned previously, many DJs put up 1000-2000 lindens per contest, lease a stream to pipe music into SL, buy music and maintain a wardrobe to perform in (especially for Themed contests). Right now I do 3 events a week; so you see how it adds up.

So, enter the Alts….

They show up, enter the contest and vote so that their Puppetmaster wins. This greatly annoys genuine guests who are there to also socialize. The Alts do NOT tip and effectively de~incentivize the regulars, meaning that revenue goes away as well.

Over time, many efforts to -prevent what is essentially Cheating from taking place. Some are technical, some are behavioral and none of them work terribly well because the Regulars get less staff attention while the Alt Policing takes place.

I don’t DJ to be the Contest Police 🙂 I DJ because I love music and socializing …

I’m looking at an alternate format to keep DJing without the frustration of the contest gamers ( contestants are fine; the people who try to game the system however are an issue)

Anyway, not complaining really, just providing real look at the inside of how events are run, financed and the challenges of doing that even if profit is NOT the goal.

Even in a virtual world, people are people and not all people like to play fair.

 

This has been an issue since I started back in 2009.  The club I lived at back then had contests 24/7.  There was a guy I got to know who would bring in 5 or 6 of his alts and basically sweep every contest.  I don't think the club owner really cared since it was traffic.

[Maitimo]

3 hours ago, Amanda Crisp said:

So, enter the Alts….

They show up, enter the contest and vote so that their Puppetmaster wins. This greatly annoys genuine guests who are there to also socialize. The Alts do NOT tip and effectively de~incentivize the regulars, meaning that revenue goes away as well.

Over time, many efforts to -prevent what is essentially Cheating from taking place. Some are technical, some are

Chiaroscuro used to have  costume contests very week but we got around this problem by not using an automated contest board at all, and instead, votes were simply sent by IM to Greville, the region owner.  You vote for two avatars not one, and there would be a minimum of two winners (more if there were tied results, I think the most we ever had was five). Two votes and two winners helps to spread it around a bit more. Also, a contest board cannot tell if alts are gaming the votes but a human can. 

Technically it would have been possible for Grev to "game" the system himself and award the prizes to his favourite people every time but there was never any sign of him doing this. So the person collecting the votes has to be someone that everyone trusts.

[Myntz Mysterious]

I almost always ignore local chat in clubs since most of the time is a lot of gesture spam. AND if the land allows sound for gestures then I mute that while I'm there. So host gestures and reminders to tip are meh... I'm generally not paying attention...

If there is one thing I hate is constant gesture sound spam over top of the music I'm trying listening to. 😡

I dont mind tipping the DJ if they are playing music I like and specially if they get my request in.

Just a month ago I came across a DJ who's set I really enjoy. I tipped them a few times throughout their set and they sent me a friend request  and group invite (mistake made, regrets ensued). For a week afterwards I was BOMBARDED with TP requests and group calls and IMs asking me to come see them play. Which was quickly followed by leaving their group and unfriending them... 😒

Side note. I miss Cell Shader's performances (the person who you hear singing when Black Dragon viewer loads up). 🙁  Last I knew he took a break from SL.

[TaraSimone Sixpence]

As the OP I was surprised by the amount of people who agreed with my points, even partially. I am also more than a bit surprised that this thread did not just fade into oblivion. There seems to be a general dissatisfaction as far as I can tell from reading the thread with:

1. Begging for Tips - The whole begging for tips thing - no need to go into it again. It is all in the original post.
2. Splitting Tips Venue & DJ/Host - An interesting point was brought up, which I feel bears mentioning. Some clubs have a Tip board where the Venue takes a percentage of all tips given to the DJ or host. Club Owners - This is a deplorably misleading and obnoxious thing to do. Here, if someone wishes to tip a DJ or Host - they should not be misled by having a venue grab a portion of those tips. (To my mind, it is a hidden way of stealing.)
3. Gesture Babble - The gestures that crowd the chat from hosts and guests - often with meaningless sounds (Some gestures are funny, but repeatedly...well..) Some places are full of gestures or from a message sender, which repeats the chat message to all in the club every X minutes. It becomes ludicrous.
4. Particle Insanity - I will add something I forgot about. The Particle Crazy clubs where you can go blind just watching the screen with all the particles coming out from tip jars and hosts who think it is funny. That is an immediate TP away.
5. Automatic & Immediate Greeting - These are intensely stupid. Many of the clubs have an invisible scripted pad which relays to the host and DJ you just landed. In one second, an automatic "Hi blah blah" comes out. Totally useless and overdone. Not to mention annoying as hell.
6. Same Greetings Repeated In A Pattern - The same 5 greetings which are rotated by a hud. Again, profoundly stupid. If a host is really doing their job, they should know how to actually type out a greeting! (BTW, it is sometimes incredibly easy to see this stuff is coming from some host hud, as half the words are misspelled!)
7. Venue Tipping - This seems to be split in the posts. I understand wholeheartedly why some feel the venue deserves tips. However, I stand by my opinion. I will not tip a venue. 
8. Is The DJ Being Paid By The Venue? - There was a very interesting suggestion about knowing if the DJ was being paid by the club or not. I do not think that will ever fly in SL. However, it was an interesting suggestion. Still that does not mean a DJ should repeat every 5 minutes "The XXX club does not pay us so please tip as your tips are all the Lindens we make" - and I have heard this statement made ad nauseam at a very popular SL club, by one of its most popular DJ's. Needless to say, I TP'd away in disgust.
9. Linden Contest Boards - The reasons clubs started with this is to up their numbers. If you are gaming the numbers, you cannot complain about the crazy people who keep 10 alts on the side just to make the money. Forget the money contests. They are useless and there are so many ways to game them, it is just a waste of Lindens. - If your club is good with decent music and decent DJ's you will not have to game the numbers. Simple as all that. And why a DJ would pay into a contest board is beyond my comprehension.
10. A DJ Union (LMAO) - I read a suggestion which made me laugh in real. That DJs should form a union. Good luck with that one. Remember, when there is a union, there are those who refuse to belong. And those DJs will get all your business.
11. Dance Pads Every 2 Meters - I will add yet another small thing, which is purely based on my personal taste. It is great to have those dance pads out in a club. For those who don't use huds and do not buy dances or dance sequences, it is a great option. But Dear Lord! Do not cover your entire dance floor with those pads. If you walk into a club with 10+ avatars dancing on those pads, it looks like a puppet show! Leave room for the people with their own huds and sequences to dance. (Btw Dance animations are a vast business in SL.)
12. Complaining About Customers Who Do Not Tip You - Edited because of another comment I read which was seriously out of place - If you see someone who comes in again and again and never tips, and you are a DJ or Host - that is not your business nor should it be a concern of yours. Maybe that person has no real money to put into SL. Maybe they need every cent to just exist in real and being in SL is an escape for them. Maybe they just don't tip. I have no idea why it would be a discussion or something that should be noticed by a DJ. It makes one wonder what actually goes on in the IM's between a DJ and their Host.

Owning and running a club in SL is not a moneymaking venture. (If you want to make money in SL, do original designing, scripting, animations or better yet, own land and rent it out. Not even then is it a guaranteed success.) Plan on being on the negative side if you own a club and having to put money into it all the time. Owning a club is done out of a serious love of music and offering people the experience you want to offer them.

Keep an Excel Spreadsheet of all your expenses. That way, it will better inform you of exactly what is going out and what is coming in. It is the same advice I give to all designers who ask me. It would surprise one how much texture uploading, mesh or non-mesh creation, time, packaging and creation actually costs in real USD. 

A DJ supposedly loves the music they play. Whether they talk.a little or a lot depends on their voice, their sense of humor and if they have something to say. Some DJ's I am friends with do it for love of music and they make decent money. Not one of them has to ask for tips as they come their way naturally and also to their hosts.

Some very intelligent arguments were made for both sides. I will say this again. I respect any and all who totally disagree with me and you have the right to your opinions, as I have the right to my own opinions.

Enjoy the music. Enjoy the dancing. Enjoy the nice people you meet. And remember the moment SL is no longer fun, just X out. (Oh, almost forgot. Just to answer the question - no, I was never banned from a club! At least not yet. However, there is always a first time! I was asked on two separate occasions, at a famous semi-formal club, to wear something a bit more appropriate, but that was fair.)

 

Edited February 4, 2022 by TaraSimone Sixpence

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

14 hours ago, Amanda Crisp said:

Hopefully this is not Necroposting, but my situation has evolved since I replied last week and I thought it might be of interest to those with concerns about Club Staff in SL.

A necro is a thread that's been here since the ice age. I think 30 days or less is fine.

Another annoying thing which causes a lot of lag is clubs using those stupid Lindo kiosks. Those are basically campers and the people surrounding them never tip anything in the club.

[Rat Luv]

17 hours ago, Amanda Crisp said:

So, enter the Alts….

They show up, enter the contest and vote so that their Puppetmaster wins. This greatly annoys genuine guests who are there to also socialize. The Alts do NOT tip and effectively de~incentivize the regulars, meaning that revenue goes away as well.

Over time, many efforts to -prevent what is essentially Cheating from taking place. Some are technical, some are behavioral and none of them work terribly well because the Regulars get less staff attention while the Alt Policing takes place.

Yes, there's not much hosts can do about it either. If the cheater says "Prove it!", you can't, and if they make a fuss in local chat or IM the owner, the host can get fired for 'starting drama'.

If the board hides the number of votes from local chat, the host can try picking the next winner down...and hope the cheater doesn't insist on seeing the results  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  But I agree, contest boards can be added hassle...

[Nick0678]

Personally i never read local chat, it's disabled. I rarely tip DJ's/Hosts/Managers unless it's a friend playing/hosting and won't participate in Trivia's or join contest's , winning 0.5 - 3 US$ sounds ok for SL expenses but got bored already just thinking of it.

Most of the time my avatar will be left camping and i 'll have music on for 10-15 minutes as long as the DJ isn't playing depressive/sad songs while i do other things in RL, so chances are i am not paying any attention at all unless i hear a random IM on TTS or be there with a friend/lover/whatever.

[swedishfox Ghost]

• I don't mind tip reminders every 30 minutes to an hour
• I usually only have a few hundred L on me, i'll tip what I can but im not about to drop $10 to do it
• play a song I like and i'll be inclined to tip, doing a request is guaranteed one from me
• I hate sound/text gesture spam, im here for music, not going deaf and a 50+MB local chat log for the day
• complex avatars slows everyone down, why do you feel the need to be a complexity whale? 100k should be the limit
• when I do employ a complexity limit that de-rendered you because I want at least 5 fps, please do not ***** about it when it notifies you that someone can't see you
• why do you have a pregnancy thing repeatedly blabbering on in local?
• best one: please do not send out mass TP's every 10 minutes, you'll be asked once to stop, you'll be blocked if done again

[Scylla Rhiadra]

4 hours ago, Nick0678 said:

Personally i never read local chat, it's disabled. I rarely tip DJ's/Hosts/Managers unless it's a friend playing/hosting and won't participate in Trivia's or join contest's , winning 0.5 - 3 US$ sounds ok for SL expenses but got bored already just thinking of it.

Most of the time my avatar will be left camping and i 'll have music on for 10-15 minutes as long as the DJ isn't playing depressive/sad songs while i do other things in RL, so chances are i am not paying any attention at all unless i hear a random IM on TTS or be there with a friend/lover/whatever.

So . . . you don't participate in the social element. You don't acknowledge the work of the DJ or manager or club owner, even if you're using their facilities and listening to their music . . . not because you can't afford it, but because the whole thing "bores" you? But you'll "camp" there, despite doing nothing to contribute in any way to any of it . . . because . . . ?

What fun you must be to go clubbing with.

[Rowan Amore]

1 hour ago, swedishfox Ghost said:

please do not ***** about it when it notifies you that someone can't see you

That notification is for the one receiving it's benefit.  It's not actually telling you that anyone can't see you specifically.  It's merely letting the user know that their complexity is high and other may not be able to see them in general.  I used to get that message all the time when I was using the Legacy mesh body and why I switched back to Maitreya.  I haven't received that notification since.

[Silent Mistwalker]

17 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

That notification is for the one receiving it's benefit.  It's not actually telling you that anyone can't see you specifically.  It's merely letting the user know that their complexity is high and other may not be able to see them in general.  I used to get that message all the time when I was using the Legacy mesh body and why I switched back to Maitreya.  I haven't received that notification since.

I've had the thing go off when my complexity has been below 25k. It goes off all the time and I use Maitreya exclusively.

I have it set for 100k and I rarely go over 50k on my own avatar.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Silent Mistwalker

[swedishfox Ghost]

1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said:

That notification is for the one receiving it's benefit.  It's not actually telling you that anyone can't see you specifically.  It's merely letting the user know that their complexity is high and other may not be able to see them in general.  I used to get that message all the time when I was using the Legacy mesh body and why I switched back to Maitreya.  I haven't received that notification since.

im usually 77k and it rarely ever notifies me if i'm near a handful of people unless it's at a busy event, and I hardly ever actually set a cap on my end.

if im not using it, why would it warn me at all?

more than likely im not understanding this right

[Rowan Amore]

Just relaying the info.  I don't know what the threshold is for notification but it seems it depends on what others have their's set to? 

Bolding part is what I was referring to.  You'll be told but not who it is.

How Do I Find out if the Complexity of My Avatar is Too High?

If some of the people around you are rendering you as solid color outlines, their viewer will report that to the simulator. The simulator will in turn tell your viewer to display a message to let you know in general terms whether or not you are being fully rendered. The message will appear in a notice along with the complexity of your avatar and will be updated if it changes significantly. Your viewer is not told which of the others around you are not rendering you or what their limits are.

ETA:  In Firestorm at least, you can shut this notification off.  In pref. under Notications/Alert

https://gyazo.com/f13a0c887d6877634c43ff8f2f7cd3d4

Edited February 4, 2022 by Rowan Amore

[Madelaine McMasters]

12 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Just relaying the info.  I don't know what the threshold is for notification but it seems it depends on what others have their's set to? 

Bolding part is what I was referring to.  You'll be told but not who it is.

How Do I Find out if the Complexity of My Avatar is Too High?

If some of the people around you are rendering you as solid color outlines, their viewer will report that to the simulator. The simulator will in turn tell your viewer to display a message to let you know in general terms whether or not you are being fully rendered. The message will appear in a notice along with the complexity of your avatar and will be updated if it changes significantly. Your viewer is not told which of the others around you are not rendering you or what their limits are.

I presume we get the notification when we're in the presence of someone who's complexity setting is lower than our complexity. When I'm out shopping, I set my complexity limit to 20K and suspect that lots of people get notifications as a result.

ETA: I also set the non-imposters limit to one. I've no idea whether that usurps notifications to people based on complexity. If they're gonna be jelly dolls regardless of ARC, there's no reason to notify them.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Madelaine McMasters

[Rowan Amore]

4 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

I presume we get the notification when we're in the presence of someone who's complexity setting is lower than our complexity. When I'm out shopping, I set my complexity limit to 20K and suspect that lots of people get notifications as a result.

ETA: I also set the non-imposters limit to one. I've no idea whether that usurps notifications to people based on complexity. If they're gonna be jelly dolls regardless of ARC, there's no reason to notify them.

I also think each viewer calculates complexity differently?  I'm normally below what I'd assume most people's threshold is set.  Generally, below 60K.

At shopping events, I just Show Friends Only.  Then EVERYONE disappears.  

[Nick0678]

Just now, Rowan Amore said:

I also think each viewer calculates complexity differently?  I'm normally below what I'd assume most people's threshold is set.  Generally, below 60K.

At shopping events, I just Show Friends Only.  Then EVERYONE disappears.  

My standard is at 200K, when in clubs/events i keep all male avatars derendered and use low distance which helps a lot.. Casinos friends only

[Rowan Amore]

30 minutes ago, Nick0678 said:

My standard is at 200K, when in clubs/events i keep all male avatars derendered and use low distance which helps a lot.. Casinos friends only

That's around where I keep mine.  I then look around and see who has the rest of their stats into ridiculous numbers and derender them also.  

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said:

That's around where I keep mine.  I then look around and see who has the rest of their stats into ridiculous numbers and derender them also.  

Do you also derender all the men in the room?

😏

[Rowan Amore]

13 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Do you also derender all the men in the room?

😏

It really doesn't matter their avatar gender to be honest.  If you're a male sporting a ridiculously high complexity or vistri or texture number, you're gone.

There was a man at a club.  I'd see him there all time as a jellydoll.  So I put on my What is she wearing HUD to see why.  Lordy!  Along with a silly amount of jewelry, he was wearing 2 'members'.  

Edited February 4, 2022 by Rowan Amore

[Madelaine McMasters]

Just now, Rowan Amore said:

he was wearing 2 'members'.  

The Wiggly brothers!

[Rowan Amore]

The picture I added to my above post is a woman.  Once I  derendered her Doux hair, she wasn't quite so bad.  Funny thing was, she barely had any clothes on!

[Lindal Kidd]

On 2/4/2022 at 5:13 PM, Rowan Amore said:

Once I  derendered her Doux hair, she wasn't quite so bad.

You consider that bad??? You'll probably never render me, then. I try to keep my complexity under about 120K, and consider that my contribution to fighting global warming, or grid lag, or something.

[Rowan Amore]

54 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

You consider that bad??? You'll probably never render me, then. I try to keep my complexity under about 120K, and consider that my contribution to fighting global warming, or grid lag, or something.

It's her VisTri count that was outrageous.  Most people I see at club hover around 1Million.  I'm usually 500K-750K sometimes a bit more usually depending on the hair I'm wearing.  The girl referenced in the pic was pushing 4Million!  It went down about 1/2 once the hair was gone.

ETA.  I have my complexity set around 200K.  Mine is almost never above 100K.  The last number, m2?  I think that's texture memory.  I may be mistaken but mine is always under 100.  

Edited February 6, 2022 by Rowan Amore

[Solar Legion]

Square Meters are for "area" - not memory consumption.