I can't be the only one who believe SL's Second Rising is not impossible, what do you think? - Strategic Overview

[lucagrabacr]

Some people seem to think that modernizing Second Life means making it more for the "younger generations" and less for the more mature main audience of SL

This is not true, modernizing it might mean it becomes more appealing to newer audience, yes, but it doesn't necessarily mean making it less appealing for SL's core audience

It would just be better for everyone c=

[Drayke Newall]

44 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

It's going to take a lot more than a little house keeping,

Go quote where ever I said that moderation is the be all and end all of fixes to Linden Labs issues.

44 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

No, it would just create different edge cases.

Rubbish, all it would do would apply better filters to content as it should.

44 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Take it up with the governance and web user groups.

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:User_Groups

Why, been there done that. Didn't resolve anything. Refer to @Alwin Alcott post above as to why.

Never mind I will quote him for you "they simply ignore reports about that unless they are shocked themself."

The fact that they are not shocked by the naked pictures in the forum @Rowan Amore reported and the pictures I linked above, or some of the reviews they get regarding questionable content its quite telling.

44 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

You don't speak for all users.

What does that have to do with anything? Once again a strawman argument from you.

Research for business's in online platforms show that content moderation directly improves reputation, user retention, user satisfaction and you guessed it user EXPERIENCE. How effective content moderation can shape your customer experience? (maxicus.com)

44 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

But I'm sure everyone who's not signing up because of categorization issues on the SLM will be in. so there is that.

Ah yes, such a good argument. Here is one for you Camp Virtual Requesting Information (youthadventures.com). Wonder how they would treat it if they saw what was on MP or better yet the parents of those children.

What about future groups or companies that do their research? Will they then think oh dont worry about that marketplace area, we will still use and advertise we use Second Life for our business, no one will ever see those marketplace pictures than is viewable to those not logged in. 🙄

44 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

It's not the pron.

Its one aspect of it yes. But you once again like you have been doing over and over, you are missing mine and others ENTIRE point. So I will say it again It isn't about just the nude images it is about Linden Lab's lack of MODERATION. Second Life's reputation is ruined due to LL inactivity to moderate their own content, not the adult content per se but the moderation.

But dont just take my word for it Second Life Reviews | Read Customer Service Reviews of www.secondlife.com (trustpilot.com)

No one cares if SL has adult content. As I mentioned adult content is in a lot of games through mods or even just the base game, like Cyberpunk 2077, conan, etc (base game) or Skyrim (mods). The problem people have with Second Life is that LL do not moderate that content. For example take one of those review quotes above "having sex as animals". They dont mean furry's and the form they mean is ILLIGAL almost everywhere, and yet not moderated by Linden Lab with products of it available on the MP for all to see.

44 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

No one gets invited to the conversation, LL have to make the conversation about how they are going to achieve the thing.

Ah, yes that is exactly what happens. They are invited and then they say whether they are going or not.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Drayke Newall

[Istelathis]

Instead of modernizing SL, can we just bring the  Internet back to the web 1.0 era 😈

[Coffee Pancake]

38 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

The only way SL is gonna ever have a second rising, is if they fix all these dang bugs first. Before they start adding more features and adding more bugs, to their ever long pile of bugs they have to deal with.

Nah .. especially as a lot of "bugs" are technically expected (yet non obvious) behavior.

Unless you have specific " I do X and expect Y to happen, BUT Z happens instead" it's probably not a bug.

A better approach would be to replace and upgrade sections of the SL architecture, the platform is advanced and all the old "bugs" get replaced with entirely new ones.

[lucagrabacr]

1 minute ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Nah .. especially as a lot of "bugs" are technically expected (yet non obvious) behavior.

Unless you have specific " I do X and expect Y to happen, BUT Z happens instead" it's probably not a bug.

A better approach would be to replace and upgrade sections of the SL architecture, the platform is advanced and all the old "bugs" get replaced with entirely new ones.

I agree with Coffee here in term of bugs not being that big of a deal for new users and new people checking out SL, it's certainly important that bugs are getting fixed (I can think of some major ones myself) but most people's reason not to join SL seems to be because it looks and feels old even though it has the ability to look and feel much newer

[Ardy Lay]

When I first tried SL. it sucked!  (Not really.  I was fascinated.)  I was using a Pentium 4 and an Intel CAD workstation display generator.  I was seeing video and snapshots others shared with me and decided to replace the old CAD workstation with something else.  It helped a lot, but now that something else sucks!  That fancy new rig (April 2008) is three generations behind me now.  I go through a lot of computers for the sake of my Second Life existence.  I am currently wanting more, but, after reading some posts and conducting some sloppy experiments of my own, I don't think more HARDWARE is what I need.  I believe much of what the viewer is being asked to render is the equivalent of a dummy-load, a resistor, an incandescent light bulb in a world where much more efficient devices have been invented, perfected and produced in mass quantities.  I am currently running an Intel i9-9900k at 4.8 to 5.1 GHz and and NVidia GTX 1070, mostly because the RTX 3080 I tried to order was gone before I hit "Buy" on the web site.  All this has me wondering what current Second Life Residents are running, statistically.  Too bad LL doesn't publish some guidance as to what is being used so content creators and content consumers know where the other stands, not that I think most content creators give a damn about real rendering efficiency.  I paid good money (some time ago) for a machine that can handle dynamic lighting but find much content has preconceived notions of where the Sun shines.  Is this what you folks mean when you say SL looks bad?  All those damn baked-on shadows going the wrong way?  I could also say something acerbic about grass that waves autonomously and UPSIDE-DOWN like it's trying to shake it's booty.  Weird.  As I look around I see STUPIDLY BRIGHT lights.  If I turn off Advance Lighting Model, some get worse, some go away.  ???  I also wonder about this option under "Shaders" called "Transparent Water" that, when disabled, also seems to disable "Advanced Lighting Model".  I don't have to be new here to be confused.  To be clear, I am not asking for help.  I am just wondering how people deal with this stuff.  I ignore most of it, but I can't help but think some things are poorly labeled and primed to confused new users.

[Rowan Amore]

15 minutes ago, Ardy Lay said:

When I first tried SL. it sucked!  (Not really.  I was fascinated.)  I was using a Pentium 4 and an Intel CAD workstation display generator.  I was seeing video and snapshots others shared with me and decided to replace the old CAD workstation with something else.  It helped a lot, but now that something else sucks!  That fancy new rig (April 2008) is three generations behind me now.  I go through a lot of computers for the sake of my Second Life existence.  I am currently wanting more, but, after reading some posts and conducting some sloppy experiments of my own, I don't think more HARDWARE is what I need.  I believe much of what the viewer is being asked to render is the equivalent of a dummy-load, a resistor, an incandescent light bulb in a world where much more efficient devices have been invented, perfected and produced in mass quantities.  I am currently running an Intel i9-9900k at 4.8 to 5.1 GHz and and NVidia GTX 1070, mostly because the RTX 3080 I tried to order was gone before I hit "Buy" on the web site.  All this has me wondering what current Second Life Residents are running, statistically.  Too bad LL doesn't publish some guidance as to what is being used so content creators and content consumers know where the other stands, not that I think most content creators give a damn about real rendering efficiency.  I paid good money (some time ago) for a machine that can handle dynamic lighting but find much content has preconceived notions of where the Sun shines.  Is this what you folks mean when you say SL looks bad?  All those damn baked-on shadows going the wrong way?  I could also say something acerbic about grass that waves autonomously and UPSIDE-DOWN like it's trying to shake it's booty.  Weird.  As I look around I see STUPIDLY BRIGHT lights.  If I turn off Advance Lighting Model, some get worse, some go away.  ???  I also wonder about this option under "Shaders" called "Transparent Water" that, when disabled, also seems to disable "Advanced Lighting Model".  I don't have to be new here to be confused.  To be clear, I am not asking for help.  I am just wondering how people deal with this stuff.  I ignore most of it, but I can't help but think some things are poorly labeled and primed to confused new users.

The transparent water has been replaced in the newest firestorm with an option of opacity.  This allows ALM to still be used.  Makes a big difference for me.

[Ardy Lay]

9 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

The transparent water has been replaced in the newest firestorm with an option of opacity.  This allows ALM to still be used.  Makes a big difference for me.

I guess that's somehow different from this "Water Reflections:  None; opaque"?

[Rowan Amore]

I believe it was implemented to reduce the impact of water when the EEP viewers were released. It has certainly made an impact for me.  I can now have water transparency on but change it to opaque.  I got a 15fps boost just doing that.

Sorry, I wasn't on the viewer at the time so I didn't recall where the option was at.

 

Edited September 21, 2021 by Rowan Amore

[NiranV Dean]

On 9/20/2021 at 3:35 AM, Coffee Pancake said:

Anyone can be a 3000 year old vertically challenged half naked dragon in human form on the internet / in a video game.

Why do i feel this could be a subtle stab at me if you replace half with fully.

[Odaks]

On 9/21/2021 at 3:23 AM, Coffee Pancake said:

We will get a flurry of media attention about how were rebranding and now called ____________. Any such coverage will be sure to include how up in arms the user base are over the change.

Questions about how LL plan to make ________ part of the conversation and take their place at the table will be asked .. and .. oh wait, we're right back here having spent a ton of money reprinting all the stationary with no roadmap or goals or exciting new toys to drive growth.

I couldn't help being reminded of this:-

“We trained hard—but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams we were reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and what a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while actually producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.”

― Petronius Arbiter

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

Great quote, that. There's also an interesting story to it. It might not be as old as people think. It was supposedly thought up by a British Army Officer in WW2 during the Burma campaign, and he decided that to get people to take it seriously he wouldn't claim it was his idea, but attributed it to Gaius Petronius...

 

Edited September 30, 2021 by Profaitchikenz Haiku

[diamond Marchant]

If one knew nothing of SL, one might say that history says SL will not have a second rising unless it invents something radically new. Usually a competitor eventually enters the same space and wins. Old people will remember we once had things like Yahoo search, Friendster, and MySpace. Apple almost went out of business selling Macs, but then they invented iTunes (and the iPod) and later the iPhone. Huge. Microsoft morphed into a cloud computing company. Silicon Valley is littered with the names of "one hit wonders".

Linden Labs may be running a dog food business... they don't consume the product (except Patch and Strawberry may be dogs, as someone has mentioned above). I asked some execs at SL18B why Bellisseria is succesfull got the answer "community". Really? Community is everywhere but what makes Belli special is value and fairness. Humans LOVE fairness. On mainland you can spend a ton on a parcel and get screwed by a griefer neighbor. Not in Belli.

One thing is for sure, when a new company does overtake SL, it will be run by the dogs.

 

[Ardy Lay]

41 minutes ago, diamond Marchant said:

If one knew nothing of SL, one might say that history says SL will not have a second rising unless it invents something radically new. Usually a competitor eventually enters the same space and wins. Old people will remember we once had things like Yahoo search, Friendster, and MySpace. Apple almost went out of business selling Macs, but then they invented iTunes (and the iPod) and later the iPhone. Huge. Microsoft morphed into a cloud computing company. Silicon Valley is littered with the names of "one hit wonders".

Linden Labs may be running a dog food business... they don't consume the product (except Patch and Strawberry may be dogs, as someone has mentioned above). I asked some execs at SL18B why Bellisseria is succesfull got the answer "community". Really? Community is everywhere but what makes Belli special is value and fairness. Humans LOVE fairness. On mainland you can spend a ton on a parcel and get screwed by a griefer neighbor. Not in Belli.

One thing is for sure, when a new company does overtake SL, it will be run by the dogs.

 

"This place is going to the dogs!" is not a bad thing in the above described context.  Many of the best products were made for the maker's own use.  Grandma didn't make recipes to sell by volume, she made them for herself and family and friends and to show up that other gal that is also doing much the same thing for her own family and friends, with the competition be private between the two grandmothers?  Being popular by doing stuff to be a media sensation is a relatively new thing.  Remember when doing stuff to be a media sensation made one the class clown, the village idiot, the town drunk, the lost cause, the political pariah, the.....?

Yes, use the product you produce.  PLEASE.

[animats]

I am ever so slightly encouraged. Mojo Linden, the new VP of engineering, wants to improve performance. Today, at Creator User Group, we got a few hints that deep down inside the viewer's rendering loop, frame rate bottlenecks are being found, using a performance measurement tool, and being fixed.

To be in the game, SL needs to get up to a consistent frame rate of 30FPS or better. Anything lower is just seen as broken.

(Incidentally, no, it's not impossible with user-created content. Anyone who wants to argue that, IM me and I will convince them that  it's a technology problem.)

[Coffee Pancake]

42 minutes ago, animats said:

To be in the game, SL needs to get up to a consistent frame rate of 30FPS or better. Anything lower is just seen as broken.

Usability demands 30, gamers demand 60 and we wont be taken seriously unless that's achievable. 

[animats]

1 minute ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Usability demands 30, gamers demand 60 and we wont be taken seriously unless that's achievable. 

Might be able to get there, especially on gamer-grade GPUs. A reasonable goal is 20-25FPS on the lowest hardware supported, with some rendering features turned off and the draw distance pulled in a bit. 60FPS on an NVidia 3xxx GPU in "Ultra" mode.

[JoJo Aurelia]

I'm still mad Zuckerberg thinks he invented the word, metaverse. He's convinced the world, too, that it's his idea 🤔

[ChinRey]

10 hours ago, animats said:

Might be able to get there, especially on gamer-grade GPUs. A reasonable goal is 20-25FPS on the lowest hardware supported, with some rendering features turned off and the draw distance pulled in a bit. 60FPS on an NVidia 3xxx GPU in "Ultra" mode.

We're far from that goal unfortunately.

I visited one sim today where I only got 7 fps out of my GeForce RTX 3090 gpu! That was with a 32" monitor, Ultra graphics, 1024 m draw distance and 8x anti-aliasing but even so, it's way too low. At other locations with just as good - or even much better - looks and just as complex scenes, my computer can manage a three digit fps without raising a sweat.

So:

14 hours ago, animats said:

(Incidentally, no, it's not impossible with user-created content. Anyone who wants to argue that, IM me and I will convince them that  it's a technology problem.)

Yes, it is possible to achieve that kind of performance with user-created content but no, it's not only a technology problem.

The poor perfomance we get all to often in SL is caused both by inefficient software and inefficient assets and both those issues have to be adressed. Fixing only one of them won't do much good.