New Gacha Policy Discussion

[Coffee Pancake]

9 minutes ago, Yingzi Xue said:

The script for making this function would be super simple to write, but as you said, handling input in an efficient, low-impact way is going to be key.  No matter the delay, you're still going to have the potential for campers mass clicking on the object, unless you use a waiting list or queue for interacting with the unit.  Cycle through avatars who have clicked on the unit and give them each time to use it.  If an avatar leaves, drop them from the queue.  This would make it somewhat fair and help dump unnecessary clicks.  It'll be interesting to see how the creator handles it.

The fun part.

When vendors get overwhelmed, due to region lag, or just by being hammered. The script events can fire out of order.

What does that mean?

It means you lose.

 

GOOD LUCK !! .. wait .. no .. 

[Komarimono]

5 minutes ago, Kyau Brodie said:

 

Please stop suggesting Patch Linden did not do his research. It's kind of rude.

He clearly says he personally approved the submitted operation and design of the vendor and he will not be reading any more discussion about it in this thread.

If you don't like it, don't play it. Simple as that. I'm not surprised the people that didn't like gacha, don't like this new vendor system either. It will never be your cup of tea and that's fine. But for those who enjoy this vendor, let them have their nice things.

People were wanting clarification, nothing more.  I see no reason why you have to attack and be passive aggressive on someone about it, could have just let it be.

[Theresa Tennyson]

38 minutes ago, Finite said:

Explain how you get a net proceed with a minus anything let alone fees. This should be interesting math.

You buy five dollars worth of macaroni at a dollar a pound. Your bank account now has five dollars less; your "macaroni account" has five pounds of macaroni in it.

Your aunt gives you a two-pound box of macaroni because you washed her car. Your macaroni account now has seven pounds of macaroni.

You decide that your situation would be better if you had less macaroni and more negotiable securities. You find a macaroni broker who will pay you the same dollar a pound for your macaroni, but they want to take fifty cents out of the total because of the nuisance of carrying around seven pounds of macaroni. You agree to this.

Now you have no macaroni and $6.50 of cash. The gross proceeds of the sale were $7.00, however, with the fee taken out, the net proceeds of the sale were $6.50.

When you sum up the year's totals with your macaroni accountant, yes, your net proceeds in macaroni trading will be $1.50. But this doesn't mean that the macaroni broker only gave you $1.50 for your seven pounds of macaroni.

[Yingzi Xue]

4 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

The fun part.

When vendors get overwhelmed, due to region lag, or just by being hammered. The script events can fire out of order.

What does that mean?

It means you lose.

 

GOOD LUCK !! .. wait .. no .. 

I think a queue will keep that from happening, as it will dump all of those extra attempts to interact with the object.  If scripted properly, it should only respond to the current user.  Much like some vendors operate.  Once mitigated, lag shouldn't be much of an issue.

Edited August 7, 2021 by Yingzi Xue

[Finite]

51 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

It is exactly net of fees charged to do the L$-to-US$ currency exchange.

This all did make me curious about that "[y]ou may only process credit due from net proceeds from sales of Linden Dollars" clause, so I traced it back to the Tilia Terms of Service, specifically "3.3.2. Crediting the Stored Value Balance" where it's pretty clear they're worried about money laundering:

So I can't just deposit US$ directly into my Tilia account, eligible for direct cash-out; only US$s converted from L$ (virtual tokens) can accumulate in the TIlia "Stored Value Balance" from which it's possible to process credit (cash out).

That's great. You explained some factual (yet irrelevant) information about how you cannot deposit usd directly into tilia but haven't explained this little line in bold.

Net proceeds from your sale(s) of Linden Dollars remain as a credit on your Tilia account. This credit is automatically applied to your Second Life account fees as described here. If you do not want to apply your Linden Dollar sales proceeds to your account fees, you may process this portion of your account credit as a payment to you. You may only process credit due from net proceeds from sales of Linden Dollars.

And in the same TOS you referenced it also says this.

You acknowledge that Virtual Tokens are not real currency or any type of financial instrument (e.g., your Virtual Tokens are not a store of value or medium of exchange) and are not redeemable for any sum of money from Tilia or a Provider at any time. Tilia makes no guarantee as to the nature, quality, or value of the features of, or content on, a Platform that will be accessible through your use of Virtual Tokens, or the availability or supply of Virtual Tokens.

 

Then there's also this from SL directly.

 

Process credit (withdrawal)

Net proceeds from your sales of Linden Dollars remain as credit on your Second Life account, and this credit is automatically applied to your account fees as described above. If you do not wish to apply your Linden Dollar sales proceeds to your fees, you may withdraw this portion of your account credit through a real-world credit process. (See Process Credit) Note that you may only process credit due to net proceeds from sales of Linden Dollars. Purchases of account credits and credits due to gift codes or other promotional account credits are nonrefundable, and may not be processed as a payment to you.

 

 

Edited August 7, 2021 by Finite

[Irina Forwzy]

5 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

The fun part.

When vendors get overwhelmed, due to region lag, or just by being hammered. The script events can fire out of order.

What does that mean?

It means you lose.

 

GOOD LUCK !! .. wait .. no .. 

That currently happens. That's why I would go to an event with a budge of 2k. If within the first three pulls I see repeats in a store. I'd wait until I go to the actual physical store. Or if I saw the item in marketplace (say the rare) for 500 or less, I'd just get it there.  I was usually noticing the pattern that the machines in the events either jammed or were being hit by multiple IPS to the point that the frequency of a rare was less in some. The same machine in a store itself with less individuals there would then give me the rare within the first four tries. How about that?  And the weird thing, I repeated this logic for the last two years and it was actually working for me.

[Irina Forwzy]

5 minutes ago, Yingzi Xue said:

I think a queue will keep that from happening, as it will dump all of those extra attempts to interact with the object.  If scripted properly, it should only respond to the current user.  Much like some vendors operate.  Once mitigated, lag shouldn't be much of an issue.

Perfect coding world. I know how some coders work however. I expect lag issues and glitches.   More than likely with the first few machines and events. I do see a refinement eventually though.

[Rowan Amore]

2 minutes ago, Irina Forwzy said:

That currently happens. That's why I would go to an event with a budge of 2k. If within the first three pulls I see repeats in a store. I'd wait until I go to the actual physical store. Or if I saw the item in marketplace (say the rare) for 500 or less, I'd just get it there.  I was usually noticing the pattern that the machines in the events either jammed or were being hit by multiple IPS to the point that the frequency of a rare was less in some. The same machine in a store itself with less individuals there would then give me the rare within the first four tries. How about that?  And the weird thing, I repeated this logic for the last two years and it was actually working for me.

That would only make sense since after the event, the market is flooded with resellers so the wise move is for the merchant to increase the chances of getting that rare in their own store.  

[Yingzi Xue]

1 hour ago, Irina Forwzy said:

Perfect coding world. I know how some coders work however. I expect lag issues and glitches.   More than likely with the first few machines and events. I do see a refinement eventually though.

Regarding how some script... As a scripter who prides themselves on efficiency, I find that sad—but I know it's true. lol  It'll be interesting for sure.  I can't wait to read about it on the forums.

Edited August 7, 2021 by Yingzi Xue

[Miele Castaignede]

I have periodically read posts from this thread and am amazed at the various ideas people have proposed to get around a gambling ban. It's mostly creators, I believe, (I haven't read that closely) and I certainly understand their desire to keep an income feed moving along.

But for me, as a person who enjoyed playing gacha, none of those suggestions will make it fun for me. I don't want to stand around waiting for a random item to pop up on a board so I can purchase it. My gacha fun was in the randomness of the prize I got. It was, I'll say it ... in the gambling aspect. When that goes away, I'll just be another marketplace shopper.

For those creators putting a lot of effort into finding a new way to sell their items, I recommend putting that effort into making some amazing items for me to purchase. 

[Nicky Macabre]

43 minutes ago, Irina Forwzy said:

Some people do have issues with that though. And those are increasingly pushing for legislation toward that effect.  I am actually against that point. Because as much as I love taxation on corporations and I do believe on a more democratic socialistic model. I do not think we need to completely get rid of our economic model such as capitalism.  Just regulate it.  Yet,  I too often start to see that those that want to control one part of the economic model,  actually want to slowly remove capitalism.

That being said,  I'm fine with gachas going away. As long as creators are able to make their profit in another way.  Unfortunately though, that wont be the case for many of those. They will have to then go and hit the RL market for jobs. They will also not buy from other SL merchants.  Because a large segment of the buying community are those that create here.  My fear, is that this is actually part of a series of moves done by LL to clean their act.

And eventually if they go to the next one, which is the adult world.  Which on a personal level I disagree with.  It will financially hit SL to a point where it may teeter over to a collapse.

I do have an issue with events, but it's not exactly the same issue. I don't like how many there are and how many of them are more or less the same. If there were fewer of them and with more variety I think that would be nice, but that's not really something within anyone's control unless LL bans events, but I doubt that'll ever happen, nor do I think it's necessary.

I highly doubt SL will ever collapse without an alternative and as of yet all attempts to create alternatives have failed beyond maybe IMVU. But even IMVU is incomparable to SL and would leave many of SL users unsatisfied if they were to try it, many even came to SL from IMVU due to how IMVU is. I feel the only way SL were to collapse is if it either becomes far too expensive for everyone, which is incredibly unlikely, or of LL shut down SL themselves, which I doubt will happen in the forseeable future without them creating an alternative. Which they have tried and failed at least twice now. And if any alternative happens the good and bad will just transfer over to there along with the users. I really don't believe enough people will leave SL for it to be discontinued without an alternative virtual platform.

I don't understand "a large segment of the buying community are those that create here." In all likelihood it's at most below 50%. There aren't going to be enough creators or customers leaving SL due to the gacha ban for it to destroy SL on the whole. Enough creators will make enough of a profit. That wont change due to pretty much everything in the above paragraph. People like SL enough, both as creators, customers, and otherwise, that the only thing the gacha ban will due is ruin a few wallets who wont adapt to regular sales and cause them to seek money outside of SL. Which I'd rather that than have them continue to take advantage of people's addictions/desires/etc. 

[Fionalein]

1 hour ago, Death Incognito said:

Hopefully people (consumers) realize that that conveyor belt machine idea is just as much of a scam.

It will be more fun once the regulating entities realize it. I don't get LL's hubris here. If a conveyor belt would be all necessary to avoid troubles.. why didn't the triple A online gaming designers adopt it for lootboxes yet?

Edited August 7, 2021 by Fionalein

[Qie Niangao]

2 minutes ago, Finite said:

That's great. You explained some factual (yet irrelevant) information about how you cannot deposit usd directly into tilia but haven't explained this little line in bold.

Net proceeds from your sale(s) of Linden Dollars remain as a credit on your Tilia account. This credit is automatically applied to your Second Life account fees as described here. If you do not want to apply your Linden Dollar sales proceeds to your account fees, you may process this portion of your account credit as a payment to you. You may only process credit due from net proceeds from sales of Linden Dollars.

And in the same TOS you referenced it also says this.

You acknowledge that Virtual Tokens are not real currency or any type of financial instrument (e.g., your Virtual Tokens are not a store of value or medium of exchange) and are not redeemable for any sum of money from Tilia or a Provider at any time. Tilia makes no guarantee as to the nature, quality, or value of the features of, or content on, a Platform that will be accessible through your use of Virtual Tokens, or the availability or supply of Virtual Tokens.

Pages ago I mentioned that they must say "no monetary value", "not real currency" or "not redeemable" to avoid liability if they ever decide to make L$s completely non-convertible or if they go bankrupt: the last thing the other creditors need is L$-holders lined up with claims.

I just explained precisely the "little line in bold"—it is exactly what I quoted, that the "Stored Value Balance may only be credited through your exchange of Virtual Tokens and may not be funded directly by any payment method."  I've done all I can to make this clear and it's off-topic to this thread anyway. If you really doubt it, go buy a bunch of L$s with US$s, sell them back to US$s, then try to cash out; once all the numerous fees are paid in the conversions both ways, you'd be able to process credit for it all—if there's enough US$s left.

[Finite]

6 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Pages ago I mentioned that they must say "no monetary value", "not real currency" or "not redeemable" to avoid liability if they ever decide to make L$s completely non-convertible or if they go bankrupt: the last thing the other creditors need is L$-holders lined up with claims.

I just explained precisely the "little line in bold"—it is exactly what I quoted, that the "Stored Value Balance may only be credited through your exchange of Virtual Tokens and may not be funded directly by any payment method."  I've done all I can to make this clear and it's off-topic to this thread anyway. If you really doubt it, go buy a bunch of L$s with US$s, sell them back to US$s, then try to cash out; once all the numerous fees are paid in the conversions both ways, you'd be able to process credit for it all—if there's enough US$s left.

What about the part I posted from Bae Linden?

 

25 minutes ago, Finite said:

Purchases of account credits and credits due to gift codes or other promotional account credits are nonrefundable, and may not be processed as a payment to you.

 

My initial post was on-topic. I just thought you were curious why I haven't been corrected yet.

Edited August 7, 2021 by Finite

[Kyau Brodie]

9 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

It will be more fun once the regulating entities realize it. I don't get LL's hubris here. If a conveyor belt would be all necessary to avoid troubles.. why didn't the triple A online gaming designers adopt it for lootboxes yet?

They have.

https://nouse.co.uk/2021/06/27/ea-introduce-preview-packs-in-response-to-claims-that-fifa-includes-a-gambling-mechanic#:~:text=On Friday 18 June 2021,considered gambling%2C and subsequently banned.

[Theresa Tennyson]

6 minutes ago, Finite said:

What about the part I posted from Bae Linden?

"Purchases of account credits and credits due to gift codes or other promotional account credits are nonrefundable, and may not be processed as a payment to you. "

Your "dollar balance" has $400 in it, which you use for paying tier. For some reason, you get a $100 credit to your account from Linden Lab. You now have $500 that you can use to pay tier. However, you still only have $400 that you can cash out, because the $100 credit can't be used for that.

[Irina Forwzy]

15 minutes ago, Death Incognito said:

I do have an issue with events, but it's not exactly the same issue. I don't like how many there are and how many of them are more or less the same. If there were fewer of them and with more variety I think that would be nice, but that's not really something within anyone's control unless LL bans events, but I doubt that'll ever happen, nor do I think it's necessary.

I highly doubt SL will ever collapse without an alternative and as of yet all attempts to create alternatives have failed beyond maybe IMVU. But even IMVU is incomparable to SL and would leave many of SL users unsatisfied if they were to try it, many even came to SL from IMVU due to how IMVU is. I feel the only way SL were to collapse is if it either becomes far too expensive for everyone, which is incredibly unlikely, or of LL shut down SL themselves, which I doubt will happen in the forseeable future without them creating an alternative. Which they have tried and failed at least twice now. And if any alternative happens the good and bad will just transfer over to there along with the users. I really don't believe enough people will leave SL for it to be discontinued without an alternative virtual platform.

I don't understand "a large segment of the buying community are those that create here." In all likelihood it's at most below 50%. There aren't going to be enough creators or customers leaving SL due to the gacha ban for it to destroy SL on the whole. Enough creators will make enough of a profit. That wont change due to pretty much everything in the above paragraph. People like SL enough, both as creators, customers, and otherwise, that the only thing the gacha ban will due is ruin a few wallets who wont adapt to regular sales and cause them to seek money outside of SL. Which I'd rather that than have them continue to take advantage of people's addictions/desires/etc. 

I don't mean collapse as in we the community leave. I mean it in the sense that it stops being profitable. As such SL is closed and Tilia which is the bread and butter of the financial investment companies continues.  They don't need the alternative. Ample rl business have closed down without alternatives.

As for events. I am ambivalent on these as well. I actually think there's a market saturation point and we are reaching that or have already surpassed it.  When you have so many events that you forget their names, you've reached a level of way too much. Second,  there's an elusive business there with the tenants of those sims acquiring thousands of RL cash for not much work.

However,  I also get that people are lazy.  The majority only go to stores when it is convenient to buy something on sl. In fact, that's the whole premise of FLF, Saturday Sale, and Weekend.  To get you to the store, to get you to buy the low price sale item. If you are new to the store, you'd browse things and buy a full cost item as well. Thus the store would win from your discovery.  But most slrs are too cheap.  They buy the 50l item, look at the other items and wait for them to go on sale too.

So vendors have had to bite the bullet and have had to go into these gacha and regular events to get RL funds from us. Because of our laziness and lack of support.

[Komarimono]

7 minutes ago, Kyau Brodie said:

They have.

https://nouse.co.uk/2021/06/27/ea-introduce-preview-packs-in-response-to-claims-that-fifa-includes-a-gambling-mechanic#:~:text=On Friday 18 June 2021,considered gambling%2C and subsequently banned.

Yes and no.  Will the new conveyor system have a timer to automatically reset what is next for purchase, like the preview packs do?

https://www.polygon.com/22541541/fifa-ultimate-team-preview-pack-changes-loot-boxes-rules-ea-sports

 

If not, then nothing changes.  Why people were asking Patch for clarification.  That timer and auto changing, is the only reason it's getting a pass.

[Finite]

3 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

"Purchases of account credits and credits due to gift codes or other promotional account credits are nonrefundable, and may not be processed as a payment to you. "

Your "dollar balance" has $400 in it, which you use for paying tier. For some reason, you get a $100 credit to your account from Linden Lab. You now have $500 that you can use to pay tier. However, you still only have $400 that you can cash out, because the $100 credit can't be used for that.

What does purchasing account credits (aka Lindens) have to do with your dollar balance? My initial statement was lindens you buy have no value and cannot be converted back to real money. The only lindens that can are net lindens. Lindens you earned through selling whatever it is people do in SL to make more lindens. As stated above. "Purchases of account credits and credits due to gift codes or other promotional account credits are nonrefundable, and may not be processed as a payment to you. "

And I am not pulling this out of some hat for the sake of argument. I actually have experience with this. I bought lindens then 3 days later I no longer wanted them and tried to convert them back. It was denied after the process period and I was referred to the very post I linked as to why I was denied. This was in 2017.

[Lucia Nightfire]

5 hours ago, xAmbiguityx said:

I will also cheer my heart out when we get another "Hey y'all gotta take down your predatory gambling machines again, and once more you have 30 days to do it! Good luck finding another loophole!" Let alone, watch all the same entitled creators scramble find another new cash cow.

This WILL happen.

I'm just curious if Patch will be making the announcement or if someone else will.

Regardless of whom, it will be, yet, another blow to consumer confidence and to faith in competent management.

[Irina Forwzy]

5 minutes ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

This WILL happen.

I'm just curious if Patch will be making the announcement or if someone else will.

Regardless of whom, it will be, yet, another blow to consumer confidence and to faith in competent management.

Not necessarily. If the event gives the creators the ability to sell fatpacks as well.   Laws can be written with loopholes and have been for quite some time. And lawyers, if consulted on these matters look for said loopholes.

Competent management doesn't exist in any corporation though.  It's usually competent by the definition of the corp level. By end users incompetent depending on whom you ask.

[Lucia Nightfire]

1 hour ago, Fionalein said:

It will be more fun once the regulating entities realize it. I don't get LL's hubris here. If a conveyor belt would be all necessary to avoid troubles.. why didn't the triple A online gaming designers adopt it for lootboxes yet?

LL's hubris = "Lets keep the money flowing as long as possible."

[Lucia Nightfire]

1 hour ago, Irina Forwzy said:

Not necessarily. If the event gives the creators the ability to sell fatpacks as well.   Laws can be written with loopholes and have been for quite some time. And lawyers, if consulted on these matters look for said loopholes.

Competent management doesn't exist in any corporation though.  It's usually competent by the definition of the corp level. By end users incompetent depending on whom you ask.

Not talking about fatpacks. Those were already "legal".

I'm talking about LL having to rescind their declaration that "conveyor belt" type machines are allowed because of

"REGULATORY CLIMATE CHANGE" 🥵🥶

AKA, "Our lawyers didn't read the fine print." or "Our lawyers goofed." or "Our lawyer's lawyers told them, 'Wrong again, Bob!'."

[Theresa Tennyson]

16 minutes ago, Finite said:

And I am not pulling this out of some hat for the sake of argument. I actually have experience with this. I bought lindens then 3 days later I no longer wanted them and tried to convert them back. It was denied after the process period and I was referred to the very post I linked as to why I was denied. This was in 2017.

That seems more like a reverse of the situation that it's easier to return a RL purchase right after you make it than several days afterwards. I'm not saying for a minute that you were being shady by buying Lindens and then wanting them converted back into cash three days later; however, if someone was being shady that's exactly what they'd do.

[Irina Forwzy]

1 minute ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

Not talking about fatpacks. Those were already "legal".

I'm talking about LL having to rescind their declaration that "conveyor belt" type machines are allowed because of

"REGULATORY CLIMATE CHANGE" 🥵🥶

AKA, "Our lawyers didn't read the fine print." or "Our lawyers goofed." or "Our lawyer's lawyers told them, 'Wrong again, Bob!'."

I'm going to ask:  Do you know what the law conveyed?  Are you aware that a conveyor machine is breaking said law?  Do you know more than their lawyers at this given time? And by the way,  regulatory changes are always existing, and thus what may be a regulation now, can be paused in the future and vice-versa. That, is always the case with everything. No one is negating that fact.  The question at bay is:

At this present time, with current regulations and laws,  does the conveyor machine break any? If it does,  then fine. If it does not, then they will continue. Until the governments tighten their regulations. If they do.  Neither of us know this.