Belli impacts: Private Estates and Mainland

[Prokofy Neva]

6 hours ago, Beth Macbain said:

I've stated my opinions and don't see any reason to go through his post point-by-point and, again, voice my position. Not sure why anyone thinks I need to rehash it. He didn't get it the first time, or the second time, and he's not going to get it the third time, either.  

It's amusing to me, though, that he's hung up on this socialism thing when I'm literally advocating paying heaps of money to a large American corporation. I suppose he's suggesting that LL is the government when it comes to SL, but I'm talking about real cash and a real corporation. 

#thatsnotsocialism

shrugs

Edit - I've been blogged! OH MY!

Right, they aren't socialism, and you paying them isn't socialism, yet *you want them to build you a socialist dream* and become more socialist to build that dream for you.

1. You want them to "stop their dependence on land barons". Why? That's their bread and butter. There isn't any other way than having servers paid for -- either as a part of the Lindens' cost of renting them, or as hook-up to them, which likely won't be cheap. What else do they have when subscriptions and taxes on content and current sales are simply not enough?

2. You want them to work only for the sake of altruism, not to be "greedy money-grubbers," only to get the minimum -- or less! -- so they can provide you with all this content for your premium account at only $11.99 a month. There isn't anything to prove that they already work that way, in fact -- they work like anyone works online with a modestly--paid web site or digital art job. Why do you begrudge them proper compensation? They didn't sign up to be in a socialist commune.

3. After you've essentially reduced the Lindens' revenue, and subdued their employees to share-croppers, you want them to "come out and play". You want them to be on hand to organize "community" and give you "socializing" and "things to do" and "somebody to love" who will love you unconditionally in return and keep rolling out more Trumanvilles.

It's a pretty horrifying dystopian society you are constructing under the guise of a dream, so I think it's important to speak up.

Then there's the hubris of imagining that you have fathomed Ebbe's "true desires"  to align with your own dream. He can't wait to get rid of land barons and gleefully trashes those little dressmakers making a dime off his platform. Yet those two things are his revenue and his strength and even with his own socialist ideology, he's aware of this -- which is why he raises prices, after first adding more to the product to get people to feel they are getting more for their money.

These views of yours are not new. They have plagued SL since the dawn of time. I remember that because of the forums' regulars campaigning crazily against land sales, Ben Linden specifically came on the forums and posted that it was more than fine to re-rent Linden land, that LL did not resent this at all; that they saw it as a help. Philip Linden even had a town-hall -- the first I heard -- in which he described a stereotypical real estate dealer named "Buzz" who would swoop down in a helicopter to scoop up newbies and show them properties. He knew he had to promote this to grow his world, even though he himself didn't ideologically like or appreciate the land business and arbitrage and wanted to make land all a flat $5/meter.

 

Edited September 1, 2019 by Prokofy Neva

[Prokofy Neva]

On 8/29/2019 at 4:30 PM, Blush Bravin said:

 

I heard many talking in group chats saying they had never been premium before, having always rented either mainland or privately owned estate lands, but had decided to go premium with the first release of the new Linden Homes. I would not be surprised if this has continued.  The curiosity alone would be enough for some to at least try out the new homes. I also know some having tried it for a short time decided that it wasn't for them and have returned to mainland or rentals. And then there is the case of those loving it so much that they have created alts and made them premium so they could own more than one home. 

Personally, I think it's just way too early to speculate how this will all wash out.

I think there are three things that attract them which the Lindens and their fanboyz have played up:

1. The alleged ugliness and danger of the Mainland and the high prices and uncertainty of islands -- where you "buy" land and then the actual owner disappears.

2. The feeling of "free" that comes from paying for something online that automatically drops into your lap inworld.

3. The idea that there will be "community".

This last thing is very elusive and people always talk about it in SL but mean all kinds of things by it and it is almost impossible to create by fiat or from above (though not only the Lindens try; their fanz keep wanting to come and try it with them).

On the one hand, people want security orbs, ban lines, skyboxes, rejection of intruders, etc. etc. and live in bunkers with their shotguns at the ready with only perhaps one selected sex partner and a very few trusted friends. On the other hand, they have this notion that somewhere, somehow are "their people" who love and understand them.

You can organize activities no one will come to. Or organize things like bars that are just pick-up opportunities and not really "community" although people might line-dance in them and feel "special".

You can spend years working at the real relationships and property enhancements that lead to a community, let's say Philosophy House (which I think still exists) or Neualtenberg (which failed, although another socialist sim persists I believe). But those are niches that aren't for everyone.

You can try holding regular, scheduled events like discussions or world exploration -- I used to do this for years but it was so heavily griefed, including by Linden alts, that eventually I gave up. I do hope to start them again some day.

You can try to make educational communities or communities related to some kind of sexual preference or historical RP and that sometimes work but they all have their troubles.

Rental agents sometimes go to a lot of trouble to put out water skiing and cuddle blankets and group seating around campfires with marshmallows, and nobody comes!

I have found that an old-fashioned prim installation of a wolf grotto made by an artist who left SL after it went to mesh, with a few updates, on a remote cliff, has more traffic and more favourable comments from visitors, some of whom stay there for days, than other areas I have put a lot of effort and expense into with boating and picnics and what-not. Someone once complained that Botany's Grove was "like a Texas fish camp". Well, good! I want it to be a Texas fish camp (although I don't entirely know what that is, having only been to Texas once or twice, and fishing in Alaska and the Yukon once, and a few times elsewhere, and not really understanding it). I want people to feel they don't have to dress up or pose or take fabulous photos to come and enjoy the area. 

I used to bother with manager's receptions and even skits but it's too much work. Tenants entertain themselves, you can just lay out some nice houses and commons and they will do it without you, which is a good thing. I'm not paid to be a Gentil Organisateur at Club Med.  It's also not necessary to do a whole lot of organizing. For example, yesterday, I was helping a tenant move to a less rocky area, then putting in a ramp, then another tenant came to help test it, and they expressed gratitude for the nice places they live in, on which I only lose money, as it happens, on that sim because it's mainly camping. But that's ok, I enjoy it. I have visited some rentals empires where the owners get people interested in buying racing cars and racing them or horses or whatever. Good! I'm not paid to be your friend or companion. And nobody, even -- especially -- the Lindens. You have to make your own way in SL. That's why it does not have many takers.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Prokofy Neva

[Prokofy Neva]

7 hours ago, Kiera Clutterbuck said:

Prokofy described a few interesting concepts pertaining to how communities could/should be organized. I'd find it a much more fruitful and interesting discussion if you could address those as opposed to making fun of him.

Why thank you! But I don't expect that of the forums. Another reason to get back to inworld discussions. Remember how Jessica always used to tell people on the forums to "take it inworld".

[Kiera Clutterbuck]

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Then there's the hubris of imagining that you have fathomed Ebbe's "true desires"  to align with your own dream. 

Maybe some ESP was involved, or a medium was contacted like a Patricia Arquette type person, we just don't know at this point.   hehe

[Nika Talaj]

19 hours ago, Beth Macbain said:

Those aren't what I would consider land barons. Anshe Chung is what I would consider a land baron.

Oh all righty.  I've generally regarded anyone with an estate over 20 regions as being in SL real estate as a profit-making enterprise, so pardon me.

19 hours ago, Beth Macbain said:

The Moles are being creative for the love of creativity and not to make money off of it. They get paid, yes, but I very much doubt that their hourly rate has increased as the regions have consistently gotten more beautiful with each release.

I doubt that too.  But i also doubt that Molekind is in it for the love of creativity, though I'm quite sure that many of them are enjoying the latitude for creativity that LL is now giving them.  I also think it is charming that Moles drop into Belli chat and joke around with the rest of the "resis"; I've been wondering if Patch et.al. encourages that as part of making Belli residents feel welcome and important.

Belli may be a planned experiment on the part of the LDPW team, to see if they can meaningfully grow the premium membership revenue stream by making LHs more attractive.  Let's say they grow Premium membership from 60,000 to 85,000, gross revenue growth of 1.5M$.  If they can do this with only 1 new hire and maybe $250,000 of Mole contracting, AND if the bump in premiums persists for more than one year,  I think that would be great.  And Patch & Derrick will be somehow rewarded.  

From the Mole perspective, if successful, they'll be able to continue this gig for longer than just one continent.  So I'm inclined to believe that Moles are throwing their efforts behind LL's intention to make LH areas attractive in order to extend their contract jobs.  I don't know if you've ever lived as a contractor, but the longer your gigs, the more secure and profitable your life.

20 hours ago, Beth Macbain said:

I'm looking at a complete change in the model, and I think that LL is looking at that, too, without vocalizing it because people absolutely lose their damn minds whenever LL even hints at changing anything. Ebbe has given us plenty of clues, though. The mention of the new premium level. His stated desire to lower land prices. ... I think Ebbe, and probably the board of directors, is sick and tired of being beholden to the big players and wants to take control back and level the playing field for all of us.

 I don't quarrel with your conclusion that LL is looking to depend less on tier; but I do feel that it's not a new thing.  LL has been quite vocal for years about wanting to diversify its revenue streams.  The numbers are pretty clear:

Region data from Tyche Shepherd's grid survey:

Private full regions:  ~26.5 M$ (0.6% of 16151 regions * $229/mo *12)

Private homesteads:  ~8.4 M$/yr  (0.4% of 16151 regions * $109 * 12)

Linden mainland:   ~13.7 M$/yr  (0.8% occupancy * 8113 regions * $175/mo *12)

Premium memberships: ~6 M$/yr (60,000 at $99/yr)

SL Marketplace and other fees: ???  Guesses have put it at about $20M/year

In RL terms, rebalancing this  would make LL less dependent on property taxes (tier), and more dependent on sales tax (marketplace and other fees for usage).  That has the big benefit of generating a larger income from non-landholding (but active in commerce) basic accounts.

Sansar is also missing from this revenue picture, no idea if it's making money yet.

As for the board ... they are VCs. Sansar is why they're still hanging on, I'm sure, and every step that LL takes toward making Sansar less of a virtual world experience and more of an augmented reality experience I'm sure makes the board happy.  IMHO, they are interested in SL revenue as a funding vehicle for virtual reality, which is still slated for dramatic growth over the coming years.  One can make a case for that optimism being delusional, but since it's part of what's keeping the world interested in LL, I'm not about to go there.

 

[Blush Bravin]

17 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I think there are three things that attract them which the Lindens and their fanboyz have played up:

1. The alleged ugliness and danger of the Mainland and the high prices and uncertainty of islands -- where you "buy" land and then the actual owner disappears.

2. The feeling of "free" that comes from paying for something online that automatically drops into your lap inworld.

3. The idea that there will be "community".

My main will have her 16th rez day next month so I've been around and seen a lot. I've owned my fair share of mainland through the years and have on occasion rented private estate land, though not often, because I really don't like the feeling of isolation or yes, the possibility that an estate owner has mismanaged their land holdings and now must sell or has had the land repossessed. I've seen this happen personally on a couple of occasions. I gladly pay my premium membership fees and yes, 1024 sqm tier comes as one of the perks. It's not free, I paid for it. I've also done the math. Using premium accounts to cover one's tier is the most economical method of owning your own little virtual home as long as you can muster up that first annual fee. There is community in Bellisseria. It's not just an idea. 

I personally think you have an ax to grind and an ulterior motive in trying to downplay the popularity of Bellisseria and it's possible implications for your business. I don't have any problem with you going on and on about it. But you're not fooling anyone.

Edited September 2, 2019 by Blush Bravin
corrected subject/verb agreement

[Prokofy Neva]

17 hours ago, Blush Bravin said:

My main will have her 16th rez day next month so I've been around and seen a lot. I've owned my fair share of mainland through the years and have on occasion rented private estate land, though not often, because I really don't like the feeling of isolation or yes, the possibility that an estate owner has mismanaged their land holdings and now must sell or has had the land repossessed. I've seen this happen personally on a couple of occasions. I gladly pay my premium membership fees and yes, 1024 sqm tier comes as one of the perks. It's not free, I paid for it. I've also done the math. Using premium accounts to cover one's tier is the most economical method of owning your own little virtual home as long as you can muster up that first annual fee. There is community in Bellisseria. It's not just an idea. 

I personally think you have an ax to grind and an ulterior motive in trying to downplay the popularity of Bellisseria and it's possible implications for your business. I don't have any problem with you going on and on about it. But you're not fooling anyone.

No, it doesn't have any impact on my business. My tenants are the kind of people who want more flexibility with a rental that doesn't cost $11.99 up front, but a fraction of that per month, from which they refund, and where they can choose their own house -- or chose from among many more styles that I offer. As I said, I had a houseboat which I was happy to give to any of my tenants for free for a month's stay, and I was only able to find one person out of thousands and she left after a week due to ban lines.

The Lindens are at heart social engineers, so they went from the Burning Man sort of hippie/socialist techno-libertarian model to Trumanville, and that's understood, but even when they compete with their own customers, they realize they can't go too far with them or they won't have the top paying ones.

That's just basic and it's silly to even raise "fear of business loss" as a reason for criticism, as the Lindens don't want to convert to all Linden Homes instead of private islands and Mainland, which simply pays them more, as Nikaj showed with Tyche's figures. (BTW I doubt that the MP produces $20 million *in fees* per year, but show me some plausible formula for calculating this, maybe it is that much. There used to be a figure that the average avatar would log on for four hours and spent at most $1000 Lindens in that time. Maybe that figure is higher now because of breedables and mesh bodies. Let's imagine 60,000 avatars log on per day -- that may be generous. Multiple their spending even by $1000 per day x 365 days a year. So let's say we have now about $22 billion *Lindens* which resolves to $84 million real dollars. Lindens can take 10% of that on the MP -- that's only $8.4 million in fees -- and these numbers are wild because neither concurrency nor daily spending per avatar on the MP are that high.)

Any time anyone makes a valid criticism of Linden policy its fierce Linden fanhood, it is always ascribed to jealousy, or fear of their own business being lost. Ridiculous! Even if Belisseria turned out to be wildly successful and take all my tenants away, it wouldn't matter as SL isn't necessary to my livelihood. And I might simply make a replica, call it "Belissimo," with identical houses and roads, and rent it for cheaper LOL. If I don't, someone else will.

Would I want to live in a world that reminds me of the 1960s style suburbia I grew up in, which I and many other young people fled? A Trumanville with Stepfod wives? If SL became that, I would run screaming and likely wouldn't be the only one.

Yes, I TOTALLY get it that for some, Belisseria really does have community and fun -- there are parties where people have their avatars dance at barbecues on the beach or Buddhist retreats or walkabouts -- I totally understand this is fun. It's great that residents have stepped up to do this. It solves that eternal problem of "what to do". It shows that if the Lindens just control the environment a little bit, and control the view and newbie insanity most of all, and also control the griefing (I bet they are making a special effort there), people themselves will make more fun and have more things to do in a secure environment. Forums regs love to gloat how the Lindens want to wean themselves from land barons, but their original slogan of "your world, your imagination" and their continued over-emphasis on "creation" means they do not want to be world caretakers. They want to do enough to make it stick. But not have it take over completely.

I'm not bitter that I and other pioneers of SL who for years tried to make events in SL, even going back to the days when the Lindens paid us real money in "dwell," and suffered from griefing and technical difficulties -- but mainly griefing -- and gave up. I ran an architecture club; a foreign policy discussion club; an inworld discussion club; a Moth swarm; explorations of RL sims, etc. etc. And I was only one tiny organizer in a world where there were people organizing incredible and sometimes complicated events. (And still are, like Racer's Snail Races, which are unfailingly on schedule and always a lot of fun). Griefing -- and to some extent an events list infested with monstrous amounts of idiocies, much of which don't really qualify as "events" -- are a challenge.

But these type of events in Belli are just not for me (and I daresay a lot of other people who won't speak up) -- dancing identical dances with identically-dressed avatars saying inane swirly flowery gesture things in chat, surrounded by identical houses. My soul just wilts...

Based on my observation of how other continents went, like Nautilus, I think inevitably Belissaria will run into the Lord-of-the-fly issues of any community. Remember, Nautilus started out great, if somewhat expensive; then some people built gigantic towers and destroyed the view (the Lindens refused to have zoning rules); then some guy decided he wanted to be mayor and bossed others around; then some began banning everyone from their land, lather, rinse, repeat. For a time there were multiple Nautilus community organizations -- even I had one -- they had fun, they did interesting things, but then battles for power began. I was long gone by then due to the destruction of the view. Zindra was also the same way, wearing out at least one Linden who was assigned to run the community. Perhaps it will be easier for Lindens AND residents to run a community where building violations are never an issue, nor despoiled views, because the Lindens built it all. And where as I said, the Lindens may be especially motivated to prevent and intercept griefing.

Fortunately, SL is still free and has a variety of choices that don't rely on the structured life of Linden Homes.

[Beth Macbain]

Eh... totally off topic. 

I'll delete it myself. 

 

Edited September 2, 2019 by Beth Macbain
Totally off topic.

[Alyona Su]

17 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

dancing identical dances with identically-dressed avatars saying inane swirly flowery gesture things in chat, surrounded by identical houses. My soul just wilts...

I like reading your walls of text (I do, you have great insight; albeit sometimes more verbose than necessary.) I quote this portion because it's not just Bellissera with this. I won't go into details other than to state that I don't 'wilt" when I see this stuff, I hold my nose, pointing and laughing. Though the main gist of my comment is to say this: The homes make all look the same with limited variety, though the bigger draw, I believe, is the Covenant rules and their enforcement by the Big Kahuna Gods of the virtual world. Then also that it's "free" land; even on mainland, you have to spend $L to obtain it. It's also very well designed as far as the aesthetics go.

So why not grab an LL Home, have a decent "view" all the way around, spend only 0%-10% of your in-world time there? - it's a no-brainer grab-and-forget and the ability to say "I own a 2019 LL Home." - Not much more than that. As for "communities" - most across the grid generally tend to be cliquish in most places, and one often feels like a fifth-wheel outsider, almost as though intruding (especially with afore-mentioned clubs, etc.) What Bellisseria does is to give people something greatly in-common with each other, and nothing else really trumps that.

[Gingir Ghoststar]

You don't like Belliserria. It's not for you. We get it. Have you made any sort of suggestions in any of the suggestion threads to the moles/lindens in what you would like to see? We're sorry you're not happy that things are changing. We're sorry you're unhappy that so many of us are happy in our little suburban digital life. You're worried about your income. We get that too. Designers go through the same angst every time there is some new mesh, BOM, body, etc etc that we have to learn pretty much from scratch to compete. It's hard but if you want to stay and make some money in a video game where only your imagination limits you, that's what you do, you change along with it.  There have been many of us for some time (me especially) that have been begging for someone to build a community like this. We don't want to just rent a parcel where there is the minimum covenant, each parcel separated by the smallest "river" of water and have our home. Sure, that was fine when there was nothing else but for many of us, the digital suburban life is exactly what we wanted. I've had more fun dancing those "identical dances" and shopping with my new friends, admiring their identical homes that they've each taken the time and heart to decorate to make their own. You know what? No. I'm not sorry you're unhappy. That is all on you. Make some creative suggestions to the lindens/moles about the next theme you'd like to see that you would enjoy but don't go pooping on everyone else's fun and enjoyment of Bellisseria just because it's not your thing. 

[Luna Bliss]

1 hour ago, Gingir Ghoststar said:

don't go pooping on everyone else's fun

Looking at the title of this thread I thought it was supposed to be about how Bellisseria might impact mainland & private region rentals, and not about "one side" taking sides and pooping on "the other side".

I really like Bellisseria and it seems to fill a need for a certain niche of people within SL, and it will make a great simplified starting point for new residents where there's plenty of support and activities easily found -- some do better with the structure Belli provides. 
I hope it doesn't cause any landlords to go out of business -- I know many of them struggle to keep afloat -- and I hate to see dreams die as I realize the pain such loss can cause.
I doubt Belli will cause these losses though because it appears to fill a niche for a minority of people. However if it does cause some rental areas to close it may just be a kind of collateral damage that can't be avoided -- a kind of necessary development for the greater good.

[Prokofy Neva]

@Alyona Su I don't think it's right to take a scarce resource and spent only "0-10%" time in it. Once I found the houseboat was not compelling at all (ban lines, even if revised; "community" areas that were empty; a feeling that my Bama Boat would not be welcome, etc.) and I found I couldn't even give it away for people in our group to stay for short periods, I released it.

I don't laugh at people in suburbia; I lived in it myself in real life as a child. And I wouldn't return to it, even virtually. If people who like that style have that in common and weld into a community, great! That's good for SL morally and economically, as they will stay in SL more and buy furniture.

@Gingir Ghoststar (love that name!) Once again, criticizing Belli is not about jealousy or "fear of loss of income". I haven't lost any. And if I did, it wouldn't matter as I have RL jobs. If this were just a matter of people getting together and crowing about suburbia and Linden fandom, I wouldn't give it a comment, just as I wouldn't give a comment about people getting together on Zindra with BDSM themes. These are not my tastes or preferences but I don't need to cross the street to bash them.

It's when people with these tastes attempt to take over the world, or put others out of business with a Linden-fanned economic scheme, I speak up. I say I don't think it's even in the Lindens' interest, and certainly not the economy's. That's why I speak up: because Beth isn't content to move to a PG sim for personal reasons in her SL life as we know from her blog; she has to elevate this into a collective farm for everyone. Then I object. 

I also see that Blush Bravin is selling add-ons to Linden Homes, so feels personally insulted if someone challenge's her business. Oh, well. If someone can make businesses out of LH add-ons, great! BTW I will put in a plug here for my Trash Can Cuisine set which is perfect for the upcoming trailers.

I don't know how far back you go in SL, but the Lindens have experimented with planned communities since nearly the dawn of their time. Brown, Boardman, etc; then later Schermerhorn; Nautilus and Bay City; Horizons. These failed because they didn't supply the houses. They put in more prims, and nice green areas or roadways, but they let residents build any god-awful thing they pleased, and that drove others away. Schermerhorn had a long run with a few very dedicated residents who tried to keep it nice; same with Boardman in its day, with several builders like Barnesworth Anubis and Ingrid Ingersoll making houses specifically for these areas. But they didn't last.

Then Lindens tried the new LHs in places like Elderglen, which I liked and even had a house there for awhile, which I made a wizard's den that people in the land preserve could visit and hang out at. But somehow, these areas, which cost the Lindens a lot of time and money, weren't as successful as you would think, even with controlled houses. Why, I'm not sure. The house styles were mainly awful, but there were some very nice ones, especially the Asian ones. 

Now they have Bellissaria, and finally perhaps, with mesh to help them, they have a recipe of green areas and roads and house designs that are more popular. Why, I'm not sure. The Asian and sort of Lake Tahoe type houses in the old LH sims seem more aesthetic to me. Why do you think? Perhaps it's Patch Linden's charisma -- I don't know if the Lindens laid on as much personal Linden time in those other areas. 

I don't need to make suggestions to Lindens about their houses, other than perhaps to do a little upkeep on their old, forgotten Linden-zoned sims which I'll do. And again, I'm not interested in "pooping on fun". I'm interested in standing up for diversity in the economy and culture when some people advocate that Linden Homes should take over; when they smugly assume this is in the Lindens' interest and any of us in the land business, tiny or large, be damned. Sorry, I speak up then. 

This thread was about how Belli impacts rentals and sales. There are 400 sims already (I listened to the promotional video and they tell you). I think another 400 are coming. So that's now 10% but now 16% of the Mainland, in a context where there is tons of abandoned land (will they take over any of that for LHs? Likely not). Some "enterprising" residents with their own island empires advocate the Lindens picking up slack and simply joining together all the Mainland and dumping all that abandoned land. I'm not sure the results of that would be pretty. 

Silicon Valley loves disruption, especially when they have legions of fanboyz to promote it as their own lifestyle isn't disrupted.

[Beth Macbain]

11 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

That's why I speak up: because Beth isn't content to move to a PG sim for personal reasons in her SL life as we know from her blog; she has to elevate this into a collective farm for everyone.

You can bloviate all you want, Prok, but I'm living on a PG region right now, or the SL equivalent in a moderate rated region, and I'm obviously content with it or else I wouldn't be living there.   

I haven't blogged about moving to a PG anything ever. As a matter of fact, the photos in my last couple of blog posts were all taken on Bellisseria so it's clearly not hampering my ability to have sex, and I've not said one damn word about elevating Bellisseria into a collective farm for everyone. And if I want to live on one, and others want to live on one, what's it to you? People are different and want different things. I've never suggested that LL kick out all the land barons, or estate owners, or whatever anyone wants to call them, and take all land ownership back under their own control. 

I'm guilty of a lot of things, and I'll own them, but I'll be damned if sit back and let you lie about me and my words. You have misinterpreted, misconstrued, and twisted my words and the intent behind them at every step of our interaction to suit your own internal narrative, and I'm not even entirely sure you even realize you're doing it,. You are, though, and I'm asking you to kindly stop. 

You and I will never be on the same page about this issue, obviously, but that doesn't mean you need to continue trying to put me on blast. You won't change my mind, and I won't change yours. 

I'm walking away. I ask you to do the same.

Take care of yourself.  

[Prokofy Neva]

Maybe you need to review your post when you recounted why you wanted to "throw yourself into other things" and move to a PG sim (NSFW). So, er, that is definitely a blog about moving to a PG "anything" for sure LOL. Sometimes people aren't aware when their inner contradictions are showing. I hope no one ARs you there, it's so annoying when people do that, they have no lives. 

I don't have an internal narrative -- you do, and you expressed it, and I objected, and it's not personal, I don't know you, I don't care at all what you do, but you perfectly exemplified a generic anti-baron/pro-Linden sentiment that has plagued SL for years, which I haven't seen so much lately, and it's a shame it has now resurged with the Lindens' new much-ballyhooed project.

FWIW, "Mole Appreciation Day" wasn't an official day announced on the official forums, it was evidently a resident-planned day to which Moles showed up. Correct me if I'm wrong. But that lets me know that the Lindens themselves aren't quite as interested in the rush to Trumanville and fandom of Mole overlords as one might imagine.

And indeed you wrote here in your posts that you wanted the Lindens to wean themselves from land barons. It's not about "kicking them out," but making their business non-viable, which you were gloatingly happy to see with Belissaria, and indeed you wrote this, as anyone can see by reading all your posts here, which you didn't delete. Anyone can judge for themselves if I am "lying" about what you said LOL. Bye!

 

Edited September 5, 2019 by Kristin Linden
Removed Link/Adult Content

[LyricalBookworm]

Can we please get back to the discussion and be kind to one another?

My family has two homes. One on my sister's residential sim and one in Bellisseria and we love them for different reasons. I love that we will have four seasons at my sister's sim. I love the more fantasy feel to it. I love that I can teleport there and be close to a family member. I love Bellisseria for the community feel. I love that I can bike ride around or take my paddle boat out onto the water.

I think there is a market and always will be for both types of living arrangement. I don't see the land barons losing income from Bellisseria. I hope it won't at least because options are a good thing to have. Bellisseria isn't going to appeal to everyone. Some may move out in the future while others move in. I love supporting both. I don't understand a lot about being a land baron. I'm sorry if that is the wrong title since I'm only using the title that was used here. I only know that I enjoy supporting business owners as well as the Lindens too because without either, we wouldn't have the world we do have in Second Life.

I realize this is a very naive outlook, but that is all I can contribute on this subject.

Edited September 3, 2019 by LyricalBookworm
"My family have or has?" I'm not sure which. My brain isn't quite working today so please excuse me for this.

[Aemeth Lysette]

Exactly what does it benefit the Bellisseria resident to start attacking the land baron? Does your right hand attack the left?

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

I agree, there's still going to be a market for all the possibilities. Although I recently sold off most of my Mainland parcels (for RL reasons), I still have two Bay City parcels where I have restaurants, a big parcel near railroad tracks on the Atoll where I keep a build platform, and a Zindra parcel because I like being somewhere where pretty much anything goes. "Home" for my partner and me is actually on a private estate, and then we have our Bellisseria homes which I love, too. Like @LyricalBookworm, I love each of the places for different reasons, and Bellisseria is not at all a threat to the other homes. We bounce around among them all quite happily. 

For what it's worth, the two owners of the estate I live on both have homes in Bellisseria, too. 

[Aethelwine]

5 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Now they have Bellissaria, and finally perhaps, with mesh to help them, they have a recipe of green areas and roads and house designs that are more popular. Why, I'm not sure. The Asian and sort of Lake Tahoe type houses in the old LH sims seem more aesthetic to me. Why do you think? Perhaps it's Patch Linden's charisma -- I don't know if the Lindens laid on as much personal Linden time in those other areas. 

Initially the attraction for Bellisseria was A) that the homes were 1024 and used the additional tier allowance and B) that the continent was connected to mainland and C) the improvement in design and landscapaing around them. What really made things take off though was the change in the covenant a week later with the banning of banlines and restrictions on the use of orbs.

It has always been a risk on mainland where you buy up a lovely river\road parcel at premium prices you have to factor in your investment depends to some extent on the hope outside your control that a neighbour won't move in and put up anti-social restrictions on their land that spoil everyone else's investments in the area. Communities like the East River Community have had some success mitigating those factors, successful in that it is still going after 10 years, but unfortunately not successful enough that all owners upstream are so community conscious.

I think the big success of bellisseria and thing the Lindens will hopefully learn from this is that the covenant is popular with residents, and it should get them thinking about expanding it around mainland protected routes or more widely.

[Prokofy Neva]

@Aethelwine yes, you are exactly right that the Lindens' compromise on the ban/orb issue has been crucial to Bellissaria's popularity. I really hate those group-only options that create obstacles everywhere, especially on waterways, especially by people who are never there. They could put it on just when they're there and give us a break the rest of the time.

I don't allow ban lines or group/only in my rentals and few do on the Mainland because it's such a nuisance. The same with orbs -- I only allow them in the sky at 500 or higher, not on the ground, and set only to the area of the skybox.

So is the Linden orb in the pack set only to the perimeter of the home, and only bounces people away rather than TPs them home? TPing somebody home just because they are out exploring and ding your compound is just so annoying and plagues the Mainland. If the Lindens cured this, great! It still won't be enough for some people, but should be for most. What most people hate is strangers coming into their house and using their adult furniture. If a perimeter orb prevents that without harassment to boaters and riders, great! 

I just decided not to sell some water today because the neighbours who bought my water on this sim in the past locked it all down to group-only, leaving only the narrow path of Linden water which isn't quite enough, given that boats go skewed sometimes. So I wanted to make sure there was enough area to turn around. It's a burden, because a long-time renter of the water left and it's hard to rent water. But I can't risk it going to seed or getting blocked. I wish others were as conscientious. 

Would I want the Lindens to institute this everywhere? It's a thought -- years ago I and others who liked to explore called for deprecating the bounce script because it was such a plague, and to our surprise, Philip Linden agreed! We were overjoyed. We thought that if you had ban powers on your land either with the power to put in names or eject on sight, that was plenty. But some Lindens and oldbies rioted over this and insisted it be put back in. They claimed it was needed for "elevators" or "drawbridges" -- of which there were about...two...in those days, and hardly a reason to keep the constant annoyance of planes, boats, etc. being TP'd home even by Linden water. Basically, there was a popular orb manufacturer who also supported a popular SL residents' forums outside this forum, and this lobby held sway.

So then I wondered if there couldn't be an easement of 32 m around every lot where an orb could not apply. People on the forums now thought that 32 m was way too big. Well, what should it be? At a minimum, the "TP home" has got to go. I can understand that people hate it when griefers hang around and taunt them, but they can still come back and do that from nearby land often anyway. So the TP home annoys the people who shouldn't be ejected and doesn't deter griefers.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Prokofy Neva

[Aethelwine]

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

@Aethelwine yes, you are exactly right that the Lindens' compromise on the ban/orb issue has been crucial to Bellissaria's popularity. I really hate those group-only options that create obstacles everywhere, especially on waterways, especially by people who are never there. They could put it on just when they're there and give us a break the rest of the time.

 

Maybe they could do something about absentee landlords, I tried again to contact someone in Ujume (or nearby) who's underwater parcel in the river system has banlines up on the sim border making the most direct and obvious linden waterway across the middle of Sansara difficult to travel. On this occasion I joined one of the open access group they belonged to to discovered they haven't been online in several years. So messaging them again would be fruitless.

It is only a tiny minority that close off these routes and I don't think it would take many interventions by the Lindens to really open up the waterways and improve the attractiveness of mainland to land owners and renters.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Aethelwine

[Beth Macbain]

6 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Maybe you need to review your post when you recounted why you wanted to "throw yourself into other things" and move to a PG sim (NSFW). So, er, that is definitely a blog about moving to a PG "anything" for sure LOL. Sometimes people aren't aware when their inner contradictions are showing. I hope no one ARs you there, it's so annoying when people do that, they have no lives. 

I'm going to regret this, but what the hell. I've got time.

Since the link you posted doesn't go to any particular post on my blog, I'm going to assume you're talking about my most recent one, and this paragraph: "I knew panicking about it wasn't going to help so I threw myself into other things. Non-sexual things. PG rated things. I moved onto one of the new houseboats on Bellisseria (more about that in another blog post) and started hanging out on the SL forums, which are absolutely PG. Hell, I've even been spending a lot of time at the SL birthday celebration."

According to you, I'm not content with moving to what you call a PG rated region. How does anything in the above paragraph support that? If that isn't the post you were referring to, perhaps you could give me the title of the actual blog post. I'm happy to review anything and eat my words if necessary. The thing I'm panicking about above is going through menopause and losing my libido, and the ways I attempt to distract myself during this miserable process. I'm sure you've already been there. Perhaps you have some tips on surviving hot flashes? 

Not sure why anyone would AR me, either. I'm well aware of what the rules are regarding sexual activity on moderate regions and I'm not breaking any of them. You posted the very NSFW link, not me. I'm not ARing you for that but I won't be surprised to see that removed once a moderator sees it. 

6 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I don't have an internal narrative -- you do, and you expressed it, and I objected, and it's not personal, I don't know you, I don't care at all what you do, but you perfectly exemplified a generic anti-baron/pro-Linden sentiment that has plagued SL for years, which I haven't seen so much lately, and it's a shame it has now resurged with the Lindens' new much-ballyhooed project.

We all have an internal narrative, and bringing my blog into this brouhaha is indeed making it personal, since it is my personal blog. For years, all I've heard about the Lindens were negative things and, quite frankly, I assumed the worst of them. My opinion has changed since I moved to Bellisseria. There is nothing generic about my opinions. They're mine, just as yours are yours, unless you want to claim yours as generic as well. I'm quite certain you aren't the only one holding those opinions.

You may not have seen a Linden inworld for years, but I see them nearly everyday. Anytime I've ever spoken to them, they've responded, Patch included. Moles, too, except Abnor who I assume is deep into his work and I don't take it personally. They've not given me a single reason to distrust them or their motives. I also have my own reasons for disliking the land barons, and to me, they are perfectly valid reasons. You don't have to agree. People are allowed to have different opinions on things. 

6 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

FWIW, "Mole Appreciation Day" wasn't an official day announced on the official forums, it was evidently a resident-planned day to which Moles showed up. Correct me if I'm wrong. But that lets me know that the Lindens themselves aren't quite as interested in the rush to Trumanville and fandom of Mole overlords as one might imagine.

Yes, it was resident planned. Did someone say it wasn't? How does a resident-planned event indicate that the Lindens aren't interested in the Moles or Bellisseria, though? That's a bit like saying I don't like my family because my sister planned my niece's birthday party. The two things aren't related in any way. Are you saying you think the Lindens should have planned Mole Appreciation Day? Are you privy to the methods the Lindens use to show appreciation to the Moles who work under them? We have employee appreciation events at work, but I much prefer it when my boss thanks me for the work I do on a more personal level. Appreciation events tend to be trite and done because it's expected and say very little about any individual employee's worth to their employer. 

6 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

And indeed you wrote here in your posts that you wanted the Lindens to wean themselves from land barons. It's not about "kicking them out," but making their business non-viable, which you were gloatingly happy to see with Belissaria, and indeed you wrote this, as anyone can see by reading all your posts here, which you didn't delete. Anyone can judge for themselves if I am "lying" about what you said LOL. Bye!

And how does that say that I want SL to become a socialist Linden-run utopia? SL is huge. If people want to live on someone else's land, be it you or a Linden or Anshe Chung, there's plenty of room for all. Would I like to see a way for LL to become less dependent on the big land owners? Yes. I'm not denying that, and haven't denied that. I stated it quite plainly. It is my belief that LL could cut out the middle-men (the land barons, or estate owners, or whatever they want to be called) if they so chose. You, and others, vehemently disagree with me. 

Aren't you the one who is all for capitalism? Wants billboards and advertising all over SL? If LL found a way to undercut the land barons and keep all the money for themselves and force the barons out of business, isn't that just capitalism? At the end of the day, LL is a corporation and their goal is to make as much money as possible. To hell with anyone who gets stepped on along the way, right? It's just business. Wanting to keep the playing field level, and keeping the land barons in business despite the fact that they could run them out of SL is... hmm... what's the term for that? Oh, right... Democratic Socialism. 

Why, Prokofy Neva, YOU are a socialist! Would you like to know the secret handshake now?

I'm having a staycation this week and have plenty of time to argue every point you make, just as you have mine. I'm just as capable as you at using lots and lots of words, and I've got dictionaries and thesaurus in case I run out. There are ways I'd rather spend my time, but I'm game. We can do this ad infinitum (at least until a mod comes in and shuts this down), or we can agree to disagree and move on to other things.

Your move, Prok. 

 

[Aethelwine]

There are good and bad "Land Barons". If it wasn't for that model we wouldn't have the Eden and Fruit Island sims. We wouldn't have mainland itself expanded by Ansche Chung with the  Seychelles, and by others with the Fairchang Estate and the USS sailing sims and Blake sea. Some of those involved no doubt make a profit, but I am not sure all do... some use the rentals to pay for public spaces and the Yacht clubs that provide communities and opportunities to contribute without needing to do so financially.

The way Linden Lab generates its revenue is really down to them to decide, I don't have an opinion on it, especially without the full facts at my disposal, but whatever they do to change that they should be careful not to damage or hinder the elements of their model that allow for and encourages private investments to create public spaces that add value for everyone.

Edited to add: That is not to say the "land barons" running rentals on private estate sims or around mainland are doing anything bad either. They are meeting a demand by parceling up, repackaging and providing a rental service to suit the needs of their renters. The bad "Land Barons" would be ones that get involved in dodgy or otherwise antisocial practices.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Aethelwine

[Resi Pfeffer]

On 9/2/2019 at 10:39 PM, Prokofy Neva said:

(and I daresay a lot of other people who won't speak up) -- dancing identical dances with identically-dressed avatars saying inane swirly flowery gesture things in chat, surrounded by identical houses. My soul just wilts...

After 12 years i finally went premium, but now im already cancelling it, just after 4 months. Mostly because of the same reasons you just wrote.
For me, its not enough space, never enough prims, i dont like uniform things all over, especially when its so easy to buy modifiable houses, chopping them into pieces and create something unique out of that parts. Means, im very fine on my homestead parcel, building the things coming into my mind.

But the theme of SL is still "your world, your imagination". If someone seeks perfection in decorating a ordinary home, and to me it looks like its mainly about that goal, why not?
A lot of Linden Homes turned into photogenic places. Plenty of time, money, blood, sweat and tears went into it. Despite the fact its not your and not my cup of tea, thats something to appreciate.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Resi Pfeffer
typo

[Luna Bliss]

6 hours ago, Beth Macbain said:

At the end of the day, LL is a corporation and their goal is to make as much money as possible. To hell with anyone who gets stepped on along the way, right? It's just business. Wanting to keep the playing field level, and keeping the land barons in business despite the fact that they could run them out of SL is... hmm... what's the term for that? Oh, right... Democratic Socialism. 

LL is in business to please their customer.   If they do this they will make money.  If not, our feet will do the walking.

[Alyona Su]

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

8 hours ago, Beth Macbain said:

At the end of the day, LL is a corporation and their goal is to make as much money as possible. To hell with anyone who gets stepped on along the way, right? It's just business. Wanting to keep the playing field level, and keeping the land barons in business despite the fact that they could run them out of SL is... hmm... what's the term for that? Oh, right... Democratic Socialism. 

LL is in business to please their customer.   If they do this they will make money.  If not, our feet will do the walking.

Actually, Linden Lab is NOT a Corporation. The purpose of a Corporation is to maximize revenue for *shareholders*. Linden Lab is still, to my understanding, a privately company. So what Luna says is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.