Realtalk: How to get the community to like LL's viewer again?

[Kyrah Abattoir]

9 minutes ago, Angelina Sinclair said:

It relates to the group fiasco we had last week and got me thinking. We want LL to improve SL and sometimes that requires new things, to innovate. Their only way to do that is through their viewer and server side updates. Many as you can see in this thread just don't like the base viewer and prefer another. So how is LL suppose to give us new fancy visuals if no one is there to try it and give constructive feedback.

In an age of Fortnite, Minecraft, Skyrim and fallout 4 and so on. How is SL still so far behind in terms of numbers. In a game where you could be anything with avatar customization being so far above all the others, how are we behind still? Can't be the adult content; Nutaku is a gaming company specializing in just that and they are making mad money. Enough so to invest $10m in game developers to make adult games.

My thoughts lead me back to the viewer and how if LL tried to modernize their UI to mimic more modern games they would get immense backlash and just wasted their money trying. So... that lead me to ask this question.

 

I'm not up to speed, what was that fiasco?

[Angelina Sinclair]

19 minutes ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

I'm not up to speed, what was that fiasco?

It was LL wanting to reduce basic accounts number of groups to 35. Claiming it that people having too many groups was a strain on their systems? Something like that.

[Selene Gregoire]

59 minutes ago, Angelina Sinclair said:

So how is LL suppose to give us new fancy visuals if no one is there to try it and give constructive feedback.

They're called TPVs. It's what the devs on the TPV teams do. Users ask for features, FS or another TPV comes up with it, LL approves its use in TPVs, feature gets deployed. At that point LL can ask for the code to deploy it (with any "fixes" they see fit) in the official viewer. That's where the problem is. LL doesn't ask and when offered, LL usually turns it down flat. The problem is on LL's end, not the TPVs. LL usually falls back on the "user experience" excuse to deny adding new features the TPVs have.

Edited June 6, 2019 by Selene Gregoire

[Kyrah Abattoir]

31 minutes ago, Angelina Sinclair said:

It was LL wanting to reduce basic accounts number of groups to 35. Claiming it that people having too many groups was a strain on their systems? Something like that.

Oh read THAT way. I thought a group meeting went poorly.

[Coffee Pancake]

2 hours ago, Selene Gregoire said:

LL doesn't ask

Linden staff are unable to use third party viewers on machines they use with Linden accounts, nor can they use Linden accounts on TPVs, probably can't even start up a TPV on any Linden network or VPN (If managing their network was my job, that would be a hard no). So unless there is a broom cupboard with an isolated PC, it's own dedicated network & box of rubber gloves by the door, I'd say the reason they don't ask is because they don't for the most part even know. 

(and that's not even considering the software licencing side)

Edited June 6, 2019 by CoffeeDujour

[Selene Gregoire]

25 minutes ago, CoffeeDujour said:

Linden staff are unable to use third party viewers on machines they use with Linden accounts, nor can they use Linden accounts on TPVs, probably can't even start up a TPV on any Linden network or VPN (If managing their network was my job, that would be a hard no). So unless there is a broom cupboard with an isolated PC, it's own dedicated network & box of rubber gloves by the door, I'd say the reason they don't ask is because they don't for the most part even know. 

(and that's not even considering the software licencing side)

They know. I've seen such things discussed in TPV meetings with Oz. Granted, not recently but definitely in the past. Once such example I'm thinking of was the "media filter" circa RedZone/zFire Xue days (2011). LL certainly snatched that up fast. But, that was a security issue more than a privacy issue.

https://www.firestormviewer.org/phoenix-viewer-public-beta-1-5-2-977/

https://www.firestormviewer.org/media-filter/

I wish I could recall the avatar's name that created the filter but his name escapes me. I'd wanted to give him credit where credit is due.

[LittleMe Jewell]

5 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

I am of the personal believe that Black Dragon and Firestorm (and to a smaller degree: Kokua) are doing it wrong by "training" everyone on a non-standard user interface. THIS is why people whine about the LL viewer the most: They've been learning to enjoy the *wrong way* of doing things.

Firestorm didn't initially train me on a non-standard viewer.  LL trained me on their v1 viewer and then I started exploring other viewers when LL dumped v2 on us.  I've used Cool Viewer a lot in the past because it kept a very similar v1 feel.  I now use the Phoenix mode of Firestorm because it is very close to the original v1 interface.  Granted, there are features of Firestorm that I now like very much and do not want to do without, but it is not those features that first sent me to Firestorm or any other viewer.

Edited June 6, 2019 by LittleMe Jewell

[Selene Gregoire]

7 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Firestorm didn't initially train me on a non-standard viewer.  LL trained me on their v1 viewer and then I started exploring other viewers when LL dumped v2 on us.  I've used Cool Viewer a lot in the past because it kept a very similar v1 feel.  I now use the Phoenix mode of Firestorm because it is very close to the original v1 interface.  Granted, there are features of Firestorm that I now like very much and do not want to do without, but it is not those features that first sent me to Firestorm or any other viewer.

I blame Emerald. 

[NiranV Dean]

6 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

My two top favorites of Catznip are in this order: 1) amazing! performance and 2) Very, very much looks, acts, and feels like the Official LL viewer, so the learning curve is near nil. I am of the personal believe that Black Dragon and Firestorm (and to a smaller degree: Kokua) are doing it wrong by "training" everyone on a non-standard user interface. THIS is why people whine about the LL viewer the most: They've been learning to enjoy the *wrong way* of doing things.

Only if LL forced all third party viewers to maintain a standardized user interface layout will that ever happen (people enjoying official viewer again) - that won't *and should never) happen. Though I meet a LOT of people using the LL viewer and they're happy with it.

1)

I wouldn't be changing the UI much if LL would do a good job at that from the beginning, which they aren't. I also believe that different UI's aren't as much of a problem as people tend to make it. I know people are not me but i can switch between all Viewers, V1, Phoenix, Emerald, Singularity, Kirstens, Catznip, Firestorm, LL, Alchemy, Exodus, Black Dragon without having any issues learning or "relearning" the UI, i practically see no difference in how the UI operates across Viewers and i can find whatever i'm looking for extremely fast regardless of the Viewer i chose. I'd love to see more Viewers deviate more and much extremer from the default, i'd like to "relearn" the UI, "re-explore" how the UI works, right now i can't, all Viewers without exception work exactly the same, their structure hardly differs from the original and their layouts are the only thing that really change and those are invisible to me unless i start looking for them (aesthetic changes). To give you some examples, the main Viewer menu works almost 100% identical in all Viewers, the only difference is that some Viewers renamed some menus (Me, Communicate, World, Build - rather than File, Edit, View, Tools), functionally they are the same and mostly house the same options and only a few options have been moved around which isn't hard to figure out given that both versions are somewhat logically named and their options are logically sorted, example: i want to edit my status, what do i want to do? I want to EDIT (Edit menu) MY (Me menu) status, boom i'll either find it in Edit or Me depending on which menu structure is used.

This probably is extremely widespread and only in SL, the moment the same people go outside of SL they are fine with completely different UI's from app to app, they don't waste a single thought on them at all but the moment they look at a Second Life Viewer they will feel like they are being thrown back into infantile stage whenever they see a different UI, as little as it may differ (or not). I don't know where this comes from but it certainly needs to stop. I can't begin to count how many people have asked me how to open preferences in my Viewer coming from Firestorm, i don't know how Firestorm does it but apparently it must be completely different from what i'd do -> Edit - Preferences (or simply Ctrl + P), the shortcut being the ultimate solution here i use to circumvent menu differences, such as going through Me - Preferences. Using shortcuts doesn't play as big of a role as you may think in my ability to find my way around the UI regardless of Viewer, its solely about the mindset of someone and how they go about it.

 

2)

If (lets assume this would actually happen) LL forced us TPV's to use their UI and i highly doubt they would ever dare to, i can assure you that my EEP UI rant was only the beginning of a cataclysmic, world-ending chain reaction. LL's UI is so fundamentally flawed it could easily become the next viral meme. Their UI shows no consistency, no design, no thought, has little functionality, is completely unmaintained and has gotten less love than that one ugly child in a family of beautiful people, their UI is what is commonly referred to as "Coder UI", a UI that a coder quickly threw together to test functionality and is subject to change by real UI designers later. They have such an amazing, dynamic UI system that is even decently fast at doing what its doing and they keep ignoring it every time they get the chance to show what the UI can do. If i had to pick out one window that pisses me off the most (excluding EEP ones) it's a hard choice between preferences and their old environment editor. Their environment window is an insult to any UI, it wastes space for no reason, is overly complex for whats just a simple "select your presets" window and follows no layout or design of any of the other windows (not that any really does). Preferences is filled with random layouts, zero organization and lots of "You are an idiot" options, "Advanced Lighting Model" is how they call Deferred Rendering. What is "Advanced Lighting Model"? What does it do? Well obviously something with lighting and a model! Look i can open up any game, go into preferences, graphics tab and pick out practically any option, no matter which, i can type it into google and i'll find pictures, explanations (wiki articles) and all that stuff for said feature, here? Nothing. Chat tab is probably the cleanest tab i've seen in LL's preferences, it fills the entire tab pretty decently, makes good use of available space, looks somewhat organized and the spacing is eh-okay.

The worst about this situation however is that even if we TPV's step in (and we rarely do) and tell LL that the UI is ***** they won't improve it, LL simply shows no intention to make a useable UI and forcing us wouldn't change the fact people prefer TPV's over the LL Viewer, if anything it would just make them hate the preferred Viewer even more and if they can add 1 and 1 together will find out that this is LL's fault and get even angrier at them as well.

LL's UI is okay-ish to use if you can ignore the many big *****ing birdies it rubs right through your face but that's about it, their UI has infinite wasted potential just lying around.

[Angelina Sinclair]

I am curious as to what professional UI designers would come up with for SL. Even if just redoing bits and pieces of it to give us an idea.

[Erwin Solo]

On 6/4/2019 at 4:37 PM, Angelina Sinclair said:

How to get the community to like LL's viewer again?

Hire a DJ.  Give L$1000 prizes to everyone that comes in the door.  Hold a contest that pays L$10k after they get there.   That's how you get people to do things in SL, and it works for about 15 seconds, and then you have to do it all over again. 

[Blaise Glendevon]

I really don't see what was so special or magical about v1 that has the old-timers clinging to viewers that run in that particular fashion. 

I'd use SLV if they imported Firestorm's Phototools whole-cloth. It's the entire reason I use Firestorm. 

[Syo Emerald]

4 minutes ago, Blaise Glendevon said:

I really don't see what was so special or magical about v1 that has the old-timers clinging to viewers that run in that particular fashion. 

Power of habit.

Most are simply used to it and the UI change that happened in v2 was unasked and unwanted, which made many refuse to adapt to the new interface and branch out to TPVs, that could recreate the interface they were used to.

I came too late to see v1 in action, so I started on v2 without much issue, but I can understand wanting to keep what you are used to.

[ThorinII]

15 hours ago, DarkRavenWolfie said:

i still use the default viewer because im getting the desire to scream uncontrollably when in third party viewers basic stuff such as the walking isnt by default bind to wasd and other stuff

Actually, I prefer walking by using the arrow keys. That's much, much more intuitive than WASD (or any other key combination) anyway.  Letters are for writing, not for moving.

That's why I think it's a good thing to keep the arrows as default, and that counter-intuitive WASD system as an option hidden somewhere in the prefs.

 

13 hours ago, Angelina Sinclair said:

It relates to the group fiasco we had last week and got me thinking. We want LL to improve SL and sometimes that requires new things, to innovate. Their only way to do that is through their viewer and server side updates. Many as you can see in this thread just don't like the base viewer and prefer another. So how is LL suppose to give us new fancy visuals if no one is there to try it and give constructive feedback.

In an age of Fortnite, Minecraft, Skyrim and fallout 4 and so on. How is SL still so far behind in terms of numbers. In a game where you could be anything with avatar customization being so far above all the others, how are we behind still? Can't be the adult content; Nutaku is a gaming company specializing in just that and they are making mad money. Enough so to invest $10m in game developers to make adult games.

My thoughts lead me back to the viewer and how if LL tried to modernize their UI to mimic more modern games they would get immense backlash and just wasted their money trying. So... that lead me to ask this question.

 

Maybe that was the reason for the fiasco with the V2.xUI: Obviously, LL hired GAME devs to create this abomination, instead of people who have actually been inworld for hours in a row on a daily base, people who knew their ways through SL.

In my opinion, LL doesn't need to "mimic more modern games", as SL is *not* a game per se, and thus, doesn't have to compete with games UI-wise. That's why any backlash they would get while making SL look more game-like would be more than justified.

[Whirly Fizzle]

5 hours ago, Angelina Sinclair said:

I am curious as to what professional UI designers would come up with for SL. Even if just redoing bits and pieces of it to give us an idea.

That would be Viewer 2 

 

[Love Zhaoying]

25 minutes ago, Whirly Fizzle said:

6 hours ago, Angelina Sinclair said:

I am curious as to what professional UI designers would come up with for SL. Even if just redoing bits and pieces of it to give us an idea.

 That would be Viewer 2  

But, the state of “good”/“modern” UI design changes over time!

[Mollymews]

6 hours ago, Angelina Sinclair said:

I am curious as to what professional UI designers would come up with for SL

depends on what we mean by professional. If we widen professional to mean people experienced in SL and who know a bit about software development then we get the TPVs. Which (including the LL standard viewer) all follow the basic UI principles of modern rich content browser design. A fairly simple uncomplicated layout which hides action/function complexity from the main view until its needed

if the UI were to be adapted further then its more about User modes from here on.  Modes that further hide functions not germane to the current activity, while surfacing other things that are germane but are hidden (like in debug settings) or deeper nested in submenus and non-default dialog pages. User Modes like Builder, Landlord, Shopkeeper, Club Host, Live Performer, Explorer, Photographer, Socialite, etc

for these kinds of modes to be realised then the usual approach is user custom menu, toolbar and dialog containers.  Where every user perform action/function can be drag dropped onto a menu, toolbar or dialog container.  Containers that can be created and named by the user, and grouped, docked, pinned or floated  as the  user prefers. Modes being realised by the users as they want and prefer for themselves 

 

 

[KanryDrago]

17 hours ago, Angelina Sinclair said:

 

In an age of Fortnite, Minecraft, Skyrim and fallout 4 and so on. How is SL still so far behind in terms of numbers. In a game where you could be anything with avatar customization being so far above all the others, how are we behind still? Can't be the adult content; Nutaku is a gaming company specializing in just that and they are making mad money. Enough so to invest $10m in game developers to make adult games.

 

I think the numbers are nothing to do with the viewer, I think it is more to do with the fact people are used to having things to do thrust at them in most games. The most common thing I here from newbies about why they are leaving is "I just don't know what to do here. I have worked out how to move, dress etc but now what should I be doing?". Obviously minecraft is an exception. Games generally give direction and purpose. Sl isn't like that, nor is it a game, nor should it become one.

[Wulfie Reanimator]

12 hours ago, NiranV Dean said:

This probably is extremely widespread and only in SL, the moment the same people go outside of SL they are fine with completely different UI's from app to app, they don't waste a single thought on them at all but the moment they look at a Second Life Viewer they will feel like they are being thrown back into infantile stage whenever they see a different UI, as little as it may differ (or not). I don't know where this comes from but it certainly needs to stop. I can't begin to count how many people have asked me how to open preferences in my Viewer coming from Firestorm, i don't know how Firestorm does it but apparently it must be completely different from what i'd do -> Edit - Preferences (or simply Ctrl + P), the shortcut being the ultimate solution here i use to circumvent menu differences, such as going through Me - Preferences. Using shortcuts doesn't play as big of a role as you may think in my ability to find my way around the UI regardless of Viewer, its solely about the mindset of someone and how they go about it.

Just to chime in on this a little bit to clarify my earlier post:

The main reason why I would demand different UI options from the LL viewer is because the LL default UI takes far too much space on the screen in every aspect, but there are also some weird annoyances that I can't really logically explain why.

As an example from BD (I think this was the same in LL viewer?), the Conversations window. On Firestorm, the vertical tabs (which I can rearrange) are on the left and the chatbox is on the right. On BD, it's the opposite and there's this weird uncomfortable feeling having it that way around and/or keeping my conversations window on the right side of the screen rather than left. It's like swapping the knife and fork -- I can do it and bear with it for a while, but it does not feel natural because I've been doing it the other way for so long. Not to mention that I can't think of a single game where the chat defaults to the right side of the screen.

[Love Zhaoying]

I still vote for “popout” windows completely separate from the main GUI window.

[LittleMe Jewell]

22 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I still vote for “popout” windows completely separate from the main GUI window.

For those of us with multiple monitors, this would be fabulous.

[Love Zhaoying]

7 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

For those of us with multiple monitors, this would be fabulous.

Exactly. In dual monitor mode, put main GUI on one, all other windows (if desired) on the other.

[Mollymews]

the technical issue with popout windows outside of the main window, is that each popout window creates a new windowed drawing surface on the screen. It takes longer and longer to draw as more windowed drawing surfaces are added

using MS Windows (out-the-box) as a displayable example, the window that has the focus gets more time than does a window that doesn't have the focus. To see this open your viewer and a browser program side by side. When we click on the viewer, it gets the focus, and our FPS climbs. Click on our browser and it gets the focus, and our viewer FPS drops

it is possible to write a program that treats different areas of the screen as one drawing surface which can ameliorate the FPS focus issue, but its a pretty complex piece of engineering to do this and to get close to the rate of FPS that can be obtained using a single rectangle drawing surface

this problem has exercised every 3D software engineering team since the Graphical User Interface was invented. Whoever can solve this problem for the general use case will make a fortune

[Angelina Sinclair]

1 hour ago, KanryDrago said:

I think the numbers are nothing to do with the viewer, I think it is more to do with the fact people are used to having things to do thrust at them in most games. The most common thing I here from newbies about why they are leaving is "I just don't know what to do here. I have worked out how to move, dress etc but now what should I be doing?". Obviously minecraft is an exception. Games generally give direction and purpose. Sl isn't like that, nor is it a game, nor should it become one.

Agreed. SL isn't a game but then that leaves the question. "What is it?" and "How can they market it?"

Well all want LL to be profitable with SL.  I'm slowly understanding how much trouble they've been having in marketing SL and retaining new users.

[ThorinII]

1 hour ago, Angelina Sinclair said:

Agreed. SL isn't a game but then that leaves the question. "What is it?" and "How can they market it?"

Well all want LL to be profitable with SL.  I'm slowly understanding how much trouble they've been having in marketing SL and retaining new users.

To question #1, the answer is simple: SL is an open virtual world, created by its residents.

But, given the endless possibilities which SL has as a user-generated virtual world, the question about marketing is not as easily answered as the first one. Though I think it's not as difficult as LL thinks: They should just market SL so that they reach all the creative people in the world: folks with Blender or Maya expertise, folks who like to create and/or play roleplay games, singers and other entertainers, authors, theater folks, people who like to fiddle with Prims and stuff, who like to create textures or try to script; they also should market it so that they reach families whose members live all over the world (as "The Place" to meet everyone), and also that they reach universities, colleges, and high schools, NGO's and other non-profit organizations -- not companies or other for-profit institutions -- then the desired clientele should be quite covered.  😎

And about retaining new users: The learning curve (when using a viewer with a V1.x-like UI ) is by far not as steep as some here think. In my opinion, the most crucial part of learning the ins and outs of the viewer is the current, cluttering and counterintuitive UI of the current viewer.

But sorry, those who come inworld and expect some sort of game, some quest or some levels to achieve, or anyone telling them what to do next - these people can, in my opinion, leave at once and uninstall the viewer, and install some of their games instead. Their leave is no loss.

Edited June 7, 2019 by ThorinII