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Realtalk: How to get the community to like LL's viewer again?


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15 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

Well, no.  At the parcel level, we also have llEjectFromLand, which is significantly less harsh,

Most places do not have intermediate dead space between parcels, so eject from parcel just moves the avatar onto someone else's property and makes that person someone else's problem.

On private 'island' regions, the layout might not be conducive with parcels set up for technical purposes rather than ownership.

There is no practical place to eject them to, nor can one be set up.

 

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My alts use the SL viewer because I don't let them have anything nice. My main uses Firestorm.

I don't use the LL's viewer because it makes me want to punch a kitten due to the lack of features, particularly multi-partial name search in inventory. I also like agent UUID's in their profiles

The vitriol is basically meaningless. The default viewer is the equivalent of the free coat hangers the dry-cleaner gives you with your clothes. They don't care if you don't like them and use your own

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4 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

I agree.  If you are working within an Experience, you can do that, but relatively few landowners are.  Short of that, though, at least a friendly reminder/warning with a decent delay time gives the intruder a chance to repent.  That beats the instant trip home.

Yeah but you shouldn't need experiences for some mild control over your land. Eject/Send home is a bit like having an arsenal that only provides nukes.

4 minutes ago, CoffeeDujour said:

Most places do not have intermediate dead space between parcels, so eject from parcel just moves the avatar onto someone else's property and makes that person someone else's problem.

On private 'island' regions, the layout might not be conducive with parcels set up for technical purposes rather than ownership.

There is no practical place to eject them to, nor can one be set up. 

This too! I've had to shut down my system when I tried to kick someone home... And it turned out they had somehow set home in the region. The scripts had nowhere to send them to.

Edited by Kyrah Abattoir
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Just now, Kyrah Abattoir said:

Yeah but you shouldn't need experiences for some mild control over your land. Eject/Send home is a bit like having an arsenal that only provides nukes.

Not to mention that they must have accepted the experience in the first place.

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1 minute ago, CoffeeDujour said:

Most places do not have intermediate dead space between parcels, so eject from parcel just moves the avatar onto someone else's property and makes that person someone else's problem.

On private 'island' regions, the layout might not be conducive with parcels set up for technical purposes rather than ownership.

There is no practical place to eject them to, nor can one be set up.

I didn't say it was always possible.  I was merely pointing out that it's not quite true that the only tool in our LSL toolbox is llTeleportAgentHome.  If you begin with the assumption that the person was violating the rule unintentionally and then give him a chance to back out, you don't need any LSL tricks at all, and you might retain a customer.  Leaping immediately to a guilty verdict and a quick trip home is a lousy first choice.

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Firestorm is, has been, and continues to be, the most popular viewer out there. Does that means it is the best choice for your individual needs? No. It means you need to road test a few to find which one fits your needs best. That includes the official viewer.

Edited by Selene Gregoire
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No one is opening a location to the public and then blasting everyone who shows up, if politely asking doesn't result in compliance then they get a nuke and everyone else gets to move on with their day.

If a land owners setting to prevent flying when entering a parcel via teleport was enforced, none of this would be an issue. If a visitor didn't want to walk or cam, then that's their choice.

Stopping people from flying as they enter a parcel in flight is impractical, your house would be full of upset random people who just fell out of the sky.

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The thing is that preventing someone from flying does not prevent them from camming to view the content the creator has deemed shouldn't be viewed from the air. Unless it's an RP situation or a game with quests I still cannot see the need to prevent someone from flying. It's just being too controlling IMO.

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21 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

The thing is that preventing someone from flying does not prevent them from camming to view the content the creator has deemed shouldn't be viewed from the air. Unless it's an RP situation or a game with quests I still cannot see the need to prevent someone from flying. It's just being too controlling IMO.

It's not a question of camera control, a lot of my scripts do proximity checks for example before allowing interaction.

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56 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

The thing is that preventing someone from flying does not prevent them from camming to view the content the creator has deemed shouldn't be viewed from the air. Unless it's an RP situation or a game with quests I still cannot see the need to prevent someone from flying. It's just being too controlling IMO.

Might be more of a privacy sort of thing. I know if I was doing the two backed pixel hump I wouldn't want to be knowing someone could cam in for close up. Which is probably why I don't do the two backed pixel hump. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

As for the official viewer, how to get someone who has never liked it to liked it? Good question. Don't ask me, I've always had a strong dislike for it.

Edited by Selene Gregoire
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24 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Might be more of a privacy sort of thing. I know if I was doing the two backed pixel hump I wouldn't want to be knowing someone could cam in for close up. Which is probably why I don't do the two backed pixel hump. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

This really isn't about camming but about region and parcel owners who disallow flying and the suggestion by some in this thread that the fly override in Firestorm is a problem and shouldn't be allowed. My point is that stopping people from flying doesn't prevent them from seeing because we all know how easy it is to cam.

Edited by Blush Bravin
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3 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

This really isn't about camming but about region and parcel owners who disallowing flying and the suggestion by some in this thread that the fly override in Firestorm is a problem and shouldn't be allowed. My point is that stopping people from flying doesn't prevent them from seeing because we all know how easy it is to cam.

I got your point. Mine's a bit different.

Either way it all falls back on whether or not an individual has any respect for another. Just like the jerk who decided he was going to hog up the build platform I was already on (and had been for a couple of hours) when all but one other in the region were not occupied and then had the gall to tell me we had to share because public sandbox after I asked him if he was aware there was someone already using that platform. I've been going to that sandbox for over 10 years and know that isn't exactly true. Especially when 14 out of the 16 available platforms were empty! So, rather than deal with the mouse, I moved to another platform. A bit odd that he left the region right after that and hasn't been back since. This sort of thing is happening more and more lately when it never happened before. Thing is, I don't mind sharing. Just ask first! Hell I even make sure I leave room for someone else to use, just in case but I don't hog up the LP of the platform like that jerk did! So when I did move, I plopped my build right square in the middle of the platform. Just. like. he. did.  So much for sharing and having respect for others.

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1 hour ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Might be more of a privacy sort of thing. I know if I was doing the two backed pixel hump I wouldn't want to be knowing someone could cam in for close up. Which is probably why I don't do the two backed pixel hump. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

As for the official viewer, how to get someone who has never liked it to liked it? Good question. Don't ask me, I've always had a strong dislike for it.

But I am ask why! Why do you dislike it and have you tried it recently? :P

 

1 hour ago, Blush Bravin said:

This really isn't about camming but about region and parcel owners who disallow flying and the suggestion by some in this thread that the fly override in Firestorm is a problem and shouldn't be allowed. My point is that stopping people from flying doesn't prevent them from seeing because we all know how easy it is to cam.

It is my parcel and my land. If I turn off build, fly and scripts you shouldn't be able to override my wishes just cause you are too lazy to walk from point A and B. I'm sorry but land owners paid for it, they should be respected. Don't care if you could cam up 1000m and find obscurely hidden skyboxes you weren't meant to track down anyway. They remove fly for a reason like they remove builds or scripts for a reason.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Bree Giffen said:

LL could make all 3rd party viewers unable to connect to the servers. That would certainly make the community like the LL viewer. 

LL really will have to close the forums and leave the phones off the hook for a month .. although .. primtax dwarfing mass protests would really fosters a sense of community and drive a lot of media coverage, that for the most part should be devoid of the usual 'freak show' aspect. Toss in a rebranding and rename the place while they're at it.

Edited by CoffeeDujour
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5 hours ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

Less maybe but it's still a proverbial "kick in the butt", where a much simpler option would be to "move" the offending avatar back to a legit position or something like that.

It doesn't really matter what the counter measure to fly override is or how gentle, I would leave and not come back.

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4 hours ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

It's not a question of camera control, a lot of my scripts do proximity checks for example before allowing interaction.

Your situation is not going to be typical of the places that those of us who use fly override would be visiting and need to travel fast to get to the ultimate destination anyway.  These kinds of builds are always brought up in response to those of us who want simply to beat the lag from 40+ avs all sitting at a landing point and get to a store that will literally take half an hour to wade to on foot.

It is not a valid counter argument because the types of places that need proximity checks and ensure you interact in just the right way on the region will probably already be malfunctioning in the scenarios we are talking about and I have never encountered that kind of setup in the places I feel fly override is necessary.

I am highly unlikely to fly around an "immersive experience", role-play or other game environment as I am not likely to be wanting to play the game.  If I were, I would follow the expectations.  However, if I arrive to just take look at the build because I heard it was really nice, perhaps take some photos and that isn't possible because everything is setup so that the only option is to play the game or leave, then I would leave and not return.  All that would take is a politely worded chat or IM message saying some to the effect of "this region is only setup to play this game, doing any other activities in the region without playing this game is prohibited."

Simple.

There are many region setups of the type I describe above that are not going to be ruined by avatars floating or flying around that check the box anyway.

Edited by Gabriele Graves
change "land" to "landing"
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2 hours ago, Angelina Sinclair said:

It is my parcel and my land. If I turn off build, fly and scripts you shouldn't be able to override my wishes just cause you are too lazy to walk from point A and B. I'm sorry but land owners paid for it, they should be respected. Don't care if you could cam up 1000m and find obscurely hidden skyboxes you weren't meant to track down anyway. They remove fly for a reason like they remove builds or scripts for a reason.

 

Blah, blah, my land, blah, my rules, blah.

It is my viewer, my time and my freedom to choose to override when that option has been selected for brain-dead reasons.
If you have good reasons for turning it off then it won't be an issue because I most likely wouldn't be on your land.

However, if you run an event or something similar with 40+ avatars sat at the landing point because hardly anyone can move and you ban me for flying out of the person soup then no problem, you get your wish and I will not return.  What have you really gained?  Nothing except your "My land, my rules" chest-beating prowess is intact.  However, what you might lose is customers, not just for you but your vendors as well. If you are not there however and you don't have an automated way of banning me, then yes I am not going to waste my time following your brain-dead rules and assume you and your vendors still want my custom.  If not, ban me automatically and you get your wish.  Not a problem for me.

 

Edited by Gabriele Graves
extra blah added for dramatic effect
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I like Firestorm, I like the many, many useful tools that are not in the official viewer, not just the fly override.
The main thing I like about Firestorm is that it still supports Linux on my computer with oodles of VRAM and my 4K monitor when LL dropped support for Linux and don't have a setting for high amounts of VRAM in the official viewer.  For me, it is not even a question of what is the best viewer but what will support my system and make best use of what I have.

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11 hours ago, NiranV Dean said:

I absolutely hate it. I have been thinking of adding the feature to show lookat names with a twist, yours will be forced on, no way to disable it, while the other option hides it but also makes you unable to see other people's lookats as well.

I would greatly prefer this over the current Firestorm implementation, of which I am deeply guilty of exploiting.

I can't help it, I'm curious as frick but lord help me if somebody sees me oogling.

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The Viewer 2 GUI broke with a lot of GUI conventions. The worst parts are lack of discoverability and the necessity for multiple clicks to get something done that required less to even a single click in the Viewer 1 GUI.

Example: clicking on an avatar name should just simply open the profile. Instead, you get this totally unnecessary dialog window:

bad.png.979e0be65b42b4c9b7f3d317da95d612.png

Just let it open the profile window instead, for ***'s sake. It has an 'Add Friend' button too.

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I tried Catznip, but after reading how morally superior they mean their viewer is, it gave me a sour taste and I found out it wasn't for me.

Take Area Search. Wow, so you mean creators who participate in hunts enjoy people stumbling around in solid grey shapes, or standing around waiting for it to rez and the lag to slow down?

Maybe that explains why stores close down. Irritate me enough, and I leave and don't come back. I have always viewed hunts and gifts to be promotion. That when you unpack it home or in a sandbox, the item is so good that the hunter will use it, instead of trashing it. And your store is noticed in a positive way, next time I wear or rez it, I might think... "Hmm... maybe that store has the (insert name here) I want". It must be good enough, and I must find it before I get angry. Pissed off customers don't spend money in your store.

My view differ from those who mean hunts and gifts are the creators noble gesture to the unworthy crowd of Caveman-is Firestorm users Second life residents. They have to earn that hunt item by putting in time. A lot of time. Or else it is cheaaaaaaatiiiing.

My way of doing it isn't ruining the hunt for those who enjoy walking around slowly, when they chat, and zoom in under palm leaves and look behind jars.

And also, when one popular store, name starting with S, sends out a group notice to all its ten-thousands of members: "Happy Easter everyone, I have placed out 10 Easter eggs with an outfit in for §15 each". The sim goes Boom in seconds. It is full, and ppl move slowly around in that grey land.

I fly up, and a bit away from the landing point and use area search. Is that cheating? The store owner isn't hiding the eggs, they are basketball sized and in plain sight across the store. I would get them anyway without using fly and area search. I could walk around in the lag, wait for things to rez, and spend a lot of time there while other group members screech in group chat that the sim is full, or those in the sim complain they can not move.

I see it more as a service to the store. They get my 150 L§, and I am quick in and out, making room for another to get in and buy the Easter Eggs. It is effective.

Now that it's said, I have used Area Search much more at home, to find things in walls, or No Copy items. When rezzing, sometimes it is rezzed several m away, or under the floor, or I move it and it snaps like a rubberband and I can't find it. Or when I want to pick up those fluttering butterflies that are where I will have a fireplace. If not Area search I would have to type in ctrl+alt+T to make all transparent, and then try to catch the butterflies, then ctrl+alt+T again. Area search is so useful. It's like a swiss knife.

Edited by Marianne Little
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58 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

I tried Catznip, but after reading how morally superior they mean their viewer is, it gave me a sour taste and I found out it wasn't for me.

Take Area Search. Wow, so you mean creators who participate in hunts enjoy people stumbling around in solid grey shapes, or standing around waiting for it to rez and the lag to slow down?

If you knew how Firestorms area search worked, you wouldn't ever use it on a busy region. It is exceptionally heavy  .. like  " oh damn, it does WHAT?!!! " heavy,  don't get to complain about lag and script time or avatars if you're going to pop up and have your viewer kneecap the region by demanding every single bit of data on every single object in the most intensive way possible.

We're not firestorm. If we were the viewer that created & added that feature as they have delivered it, we would get told in no uncertain terms to remove it, immediately. 

It's got nothing to do with being "morally superior", but phrasing the decision the way we do means we don't have to watch people's eyes glaze over by burying them in esoteric technical considerations they do not care about every time it comes up .. especially as it just looks like we're ragging on FS.

We added an object search tool based on the pathfinding data that LL present. It will find your own stuff, on your own land. That was the primary use case over the months we solicited feedback, and the best we could do given the circumstances and data readily available to the viewer... Yes effective location searching is lacking in SL, but to do correctly requires a way to efficiently query the region, which in turn requires LL to assign developer time.

 

 

Edited by CoffeeDujour
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2 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Blah, blah, my land, blah, my rules, blah.

It is my viewer, my time and my freedom to choose to override when that option has been selected for brain-dead reasons.
If you have good reasons for turning it off then it won't be an issue because I most likely wouldn't be on your land.

However, if you run an event or something similar with 40+ avatars sat at the landing point because hardly anyone can move and you ban me for flying out of the person soup then no problem, you get your wish and I will not return.  What have you really gained?  Nothing except your "My land, my rules" chest-beating prowess is intact.  However, what you might lose is customers, not just for you but your vendors as well. If you are not there however and you don't have an automated way of banning me, then yes I am not going to waste my time following your brain-dead rules and assume you and your vendors still want my custom.  If not, ban me automatically and you get your wish.  Not a problem for me.

 

The time you waste trying to fly in a sim with 40+ avatar is time you could've better spent camming around instead. It is quicker and more effective than flying around.

Secondly, if the event organizers does this then take it up with them. Make your case with them to enable flying. However for other sims, clubs, RP sims, combat sims, adventure sims, etc etc etc. If they turn on flying restrictions these things should be respected.

Honestly I'm surprise you don't use some sort of speed dash or if they allow double click to TP to get around faster.

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