Realtalk: How to get the community to like LL's viewer again?

[pizza7]

lets be glad there are several choices of viewers, all have their pros and cons.

[Sasy Scarborough]

It makes me cry...the not being able to search+othersearch+anothersearch kills me, on top of that the one word search goes across all tabs. If i know I bought a plaid skirt shirt and boots in the past month, but only want the boots I can type plaid+boots in recent if set to last 30ish days, then still search in regular tab tan+skinstore and if I want to see what I have on for crediting, worn does not change in FS.

If I wear a hud and its rotated so not visible right click edit hud in inventory and rotate by build controls if not able to grab and edit on...that option does not exist in regular viewer. 

Cannot turn off chat for groups even if off in FS it does not carry. Logged in to do som bom stuff and bam groups i have not heard a peep from for years all went live.

I miss all IMs never see I got one, or over check just in case. Last IMs not there.

Keep forgetting how to do windlight stuff, not sure how we survived before lol

 

[Emma Krokus]

2 hours ago, steeljane42 said:

I'm pretty sure you can disable it on LL viewer too, through some file edits (yes, not as convenient as through simple setting, but still).

Edit: found the topic where I saw it recently: https://community.secondlife.com/forums/topic/438026-black-dragon/#comment-1913408

And perhaps it's about time LL killed that thing completely. It was among first annoying/weird things that I did look into after joining SL, together with eyes/arm following the building/selection direction. "How do I disable it completely, I don't like seeing mine and seeing others' selection on me". It really should be no one's business what other people are looking at right now.

 

I too hate the arm following - it hurts to see how her arm gets bent up sometimes!!

But I like the eye / head following when I'm talking to someone - lifting or inclining the head as though giving attention to what is being said by the other person... (which I make happen by ALT + clicking on them)

Emma

[Kyrah Abattoir]

7 minutes ago, Emma Krokus said:

I too hate the arm following - it hurts to see how her arm gets bent up sometimes!!

Then we should ask then to fix it, they haven't touched the IK system in 15 years.

Likewise, why can't we actually use it as an animation mask to altern animations based on floor/terrain orientation. All those features that are on the stock animations but can't be used at all.

[bigmoe Whitfield]

One reason, plain and simple. Chui,  ditch it,  let me have the ui like I have in firestorm and I switch back instantly.  until than,  not going to use it.

[Blush Bravin]

11 minutes ago, Emma Krokus said:

But I like the eye / head following when I'm talking to someone - lifting or inclining the head as though giving attention to what is being said by the other person... (which I make happen by ALT + clicking on them)

Me too! Eyes that don't follow what you're looking at look dead to me. 

[Blush Bravin]

Oh, and don't get me started on disabling flying. There is no good reason for this ever, IMO. I can see how one might want to prevent flying for certain RP, but that should be up to the honor of the participants and if someone is breaking the rules then eject them from your group but don't disable flying for the region/parcel. And events that disable flying cause they don't want you to be able to see things far away? Please! I can cam anywhere regardless of where my avatar is located. Disabling flying is not going to keep my snoopy eyes from seeing what you're trying to hide.. so just stop it!

[Kyrah Abattoir]

4 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

Oh, and don't get me started on disabling flying. There is no good reason for this ever, IMO. I can see how one might want to prevent flying for certain RP, but that should be up to the honor of the participants and if someone is breaking the rules then eject them from your group but don't disable flying for the region/parcel. And events that disable flying cause they don't want you to be able to see things far away? Please! I can cam anywhere regardless of where my avatar is located. Disabling flying is not going to keep my snoopy eyes from seeing what you're trying to hide.. so just stop it!

No, there are a lot of other reasons to disable flying and the honor system doesn't work because there is literally no honor system when it comes to SL.

[LittleMe Jewell]

1 hour ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

No, there are a lot of other reasons to disable flying and the honor system doesn't work because there is literally no honor system when it comes to SL.

Outside of a RP region, what reasons would make sense for not allowing flying?

[Kyrah Abattoir]

3 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Outside of a RP region, what reasons would make sense for not allowing flying?

Some places are intented to be explored from a ground perspective, roleplay or not.

[Angelina Sinclair]

6 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Outside of a RP region, what reasons would make sense for not allowing flying?

That alone is a big enough reason but others could be:

-Control the flow of traffic as if you want them to see certain things first like vendors or signs.

-Prevent people from reaching skyboxes or sky platforms.

-Discourage people from escaping skyboxes

-Make combat more engaging for sims that focus on combat.

 

I'm sure there are other reasons I missed.

[ChinRey]

18 hours ago, Sylvia Tamalyn said:

My alts use the SL viewer because I don't let them have anything nice. My main uses Firestorm.

I do it the other way round because Fs can remember login data for multiple accounts and the standard viewer can't.

Edited June 5, 2019 by ChinRey

[Blush Bravin]

47 minutes ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

Some places are intented to be explored from a ground perspective, roleplay or not.

You don't want creators to sell their products no mod and yet you want to take away my right to fly... uhhuh!

[Kiera Clutterbuck]

no hope, Firestorm all the way

[Kiera Clutterbuck]

 

[ThorinII]

15 hours ago, steeljane42 said:

I'm not saying that someone might find FS (or other more advanced veiwers) much easier to use, but if there's roughly the same learning curve (and I do believe it's the same, for all basic stuff at least), than it may as well have some extra features for later.

1

I don't know... When I started SL with my first account in '08, I had no experience with 3D computer games at all - and I got the gist of the viewer within 10, 15 minutes. But that was with viewer 1.x; plus there was a more fun and in-depth learning experience on that starter island back then in early '08.

However: Since the introduction of Viewer V2.x (and its successors until now which have had UI's just as ugly and cluttering), I've always prefered a viewer with the V1.x UI (for example the Singularity Viewer, the Cool VL Viewer, or the Phoenix Viewer back then when it still existed). Even on Firestorm, I use the "Phoenix Mode" (aka "Legacy") because it resembles the UI of V1.x somewhat.

Also, the LL Viewer does not only have a UI which I just can't stand, it also lacks features I learned to love in other viewers:

• RLV(a) as the main thing I don't want to miss, at all;
• then the legacy profiles,
• the avatar UUID and
  • online status showing in the profile,
• saving login credentials of multiple accounts
• the inventory features,
• the search for viewer prefs,
• and so on.

Edited June 5, 2019 by ThorinII

[Alyona Su]

19 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

The vitriol is basically meaningless. The default viewer is the equivalent of the free coat hangers the dry-cleaner gives you with your clothes. They don't care if you don't like them and use your own hangers or even if you insult their hangers as long as you keep paying to get your clothes cleaned there.

Winner: Best response to OP.

Though Firestorm is massively popular 1) that doesn't mean it's the best and 2) a lot more people use the official LL viewer than Firestorm users would like to admit.

[Coffee Pancake]

Of all the interactions we have with new users to Catznip, by far the most common 'how do I hide my lookats' followed by 'how do I put names on everyone elses' ...  after we point out we deliberately have not, and will not write code to do that, because drama ... 

<GM Rolls 2D6 and determines if an attack or intense personal justification about why they NEED it occurs in IM>

<Attempt saving throw, dodge doesn't stack, remind GM we get a caffeine multiplier, and still possesses Prim Of Fortune>

<GM points out that having it in the bottomless inventory of holding (kittys) does not mean we have it on hand and can 'use' it>

 

[ChinRey]

11 minutes ago, ThorinII said:

However: Since the introduction of Viewer V2.x (and its successors until now which have had UI's just as ugly and cluttering), I've always prefered a viewer with the V1.x UI (for example the Singularity Viewer, the Cool VL Viewer, or the Phoenix Viewer back then when it still existed). Even on Firestorm, I use the "Phoenix Mode" (aka "Legacy") because it resembles the UI of V1.x somewhat.

I have to agree that the 1.x viewer's UI isn't as bad as the later ones but I still prefer the modern interface because that's what I'm used to.

I think "used to" is the key phrase here. There has never been an SL viewer with a professionally designed and user friendly interface. SL never gave much thought to it and cleaning up the mess would be far too much to ask for from a team of unpaid TPV developers working in their spare time. The result is that no matter which viewer you choose, you have to spend considerable time and effort learning about its quirks. Once you've done that, you probably don't want to switch because it would mean starting all over again.

[Kyrah Abattoir]

59 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

You don't want creators to sell their products no mod and yet you want to take away my right to fly... uhhuh!

How does permission on a purchase has anything to do with guest rights? And this isn't a discussion about me.

25 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

I have to agree that the 1.x viewer's UI isn't as bad as the later ones but I still prefer the modern interface because that's what I'm used to.

I think "used to" is the key phrase here. There has never been an SL viewer with a professionally designed and user friendly interface. SL never gave much thought to it and cleaning up the mess would be far too much to ask for from a team of unpaid TPV developers working in their spare time. The result is that no matter which viewer you choose, you have to spend considerable time and effort learning about its quirks. Once you've done that, you probably don't want to switch because it would mean starting all over again.

Am I a bad person for liking the snap-on icons i can put on all my screen edges? :3

[Kyrah Abattoir]

44 minutes ago, CoffeeDujour said:

Of all the interactions we have with new users to Catznip, by far the most common 'how do I hide my lookats' followed by 'how do I put names on everyone elses' ...  after we point out we deliberately have not, and will not write code to do that, because drama ... 

<GM Rolls 2D6 and determines if an attack or intense personal justification about why they NEED it occurs in IM>

<Attempt saving throw, dodge doesn't stack, remind GM we get a caffeine multiplier, and still possesses Prim Of Fortune>

<GM points out that having it in the bottomless inventory of holding (kittys) does not mean we have it on hand and can 'use' it>

 

Really? So the number one request is "how do I hide my look at but show everyone else's" ?

That's... pathetic?

Nowadays my reply to Ims from people going "ho ho ho I see you looking at me" tend to be in the lines of "Should I care?"

Edited June 5, 2019 by Kyrah Abattoir

[Blush Bravin]

5 minutes ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

How does permission on a purchase has anything to do with guest rights? And this isn't a discussion about me.

The argument that purchases should be able to do whatever they like with something after they've bought it applies here because if that argument is true then a person should be able to whatever I like with the viewer, which allows flying. The discussion isn't about you but your remark that there are valid reasons for denying one the right to fly.  

[Whirly Fizzle]

1 hour ago, ThorinII said:

• then the legacy profiles,
• the avatar UUID and
  • online status showing in the profile,

LL are planning to ditch the web profiles & switch over to legacy profiles. They are using the Firestorm implementation contributed by one of the Firestorm devs.
So that's one annoyance that won't be there much longer 

Edited June 5, 2019 by Whirly Fizzle

[Kyrah Abattoir]

1 minute ago, Blush Bravin said:

The argument that purchases should be able to do whatever they like with something after they've bought it applies here because if that argument is true then a person should be able to whatever I like with the viewer, which allows flying. The discussion isn't about you but your remark that there are valid reasons for denying one the right to fly.  

There are valid reasons for many many things that unfortunately have to be emulated through scripts in a "comply or be sent home" fashion.

Why don't you ask Linden Labs why they had this parcel flag since so long that I'm pretty sure it was already there before I even joined SL?

[Rolig Loon]

1 hour ago, ChinRey said:

Fs can remember login data for multiple accounts and the standard viewer can't.

I agree, it's annoying that the standard LL viewer doesn't have that option.  It's only a few seconds' work to type the information in, but it would be so much nicer if the viewer remembered it.  Still ....

1 hour ago, Alyona Su said:

20 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

The vitriol is basically meaningless. The default viewer is the equivalent of the free coat hangers the dry-cleaner gives you with your clothes. They don't care if you don't like them and use your own hangers or even if you insult their hangers as long as you keep paying to get your clothes cleaned there.

Winner: Best response to OP.

Though Firestorm is massively popular 1) that doesn't mean it's the best and 2) a lot more people use the official LL viewer than Firestorm users would like to admit.

Alyona's got it.  There is no "better"; just what fits your needs and is most familiar.