I Have Cut My Time in SL In Half

[Wulfie Reanimator]

46 minutes ago, Coby Foden said:

Yesterday one of my sculpted hair flower did that, it rezzed in totally distorted shape. I even in couple of different regions to see was it one region problem. Well, it was the same thing in other regions too. However when I wore it today it rezzed in good shape.

Hasn't this been a problem with sculpts since.. sculpts came out? It's an LOD problem, the highest level just doesn't get loaded sometimes for some sculpts. It can happen with mesh hair too, but it's way more common with sculpts (probably because sculpts are loaded through those JPEG2K textures, which themselves don't get prioritized properly sometimes unless you cam close and wait or right-click the object).

Edited November 16, 2018 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Prokofy Neva]

4 hours ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Here are some solutions for that error message:

https://windowsreport.com/network-change-detected-windows-10/

I don't use Google Chrome. 

[Solar Legion]

Yes, you do. 

Your screenshot shows the Second Life internal browser. Guess what that uses? Chromium Embedded Framework. 

Also problems like that are browser agnostic. 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

7 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

7 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

The 1.8 TB would be the size of your hard drive, whereas Resi was referring to the computer memory / RAM.

That's nice, but I can't find it now and it doesn't matter. Because SL played only a few months ago, as indeed it did for the previous year.

Quick question: do you ever think there's anything wrong with Linden Lab's software? Or do you think it's only a problem that non-technical people have.

 

5 hours ago, Solar Legion said:

You're using Windows 10 - of course it's an issue. Second Life is not the only program to have issues either. 

Oh hey, "network changed" - another clue for you. 

You expect software to "just work" - sorry, that's not how reality functions. Like it or not, every system is different and has its own quirks. 

Deal with it. 

27 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

5 hours ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Here are some solutions for that error message:

https://windowsreport.com/network-change-detected-windows-10/

I don't use Google Chrome.

 

16 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

Yes, you do. 

Your screenshot shows the Second Life internal browser. Guess what that uses? Chromium Embedded Framework. 

Also problems like that are browser agnostic.

 

Really, it's kind of sweet.

I think the two of you really kind of deserve each other. What fun you'd be together at a party!

Edited November 16, 2018 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Solar Legion]

That's nice. 

All you had to say on the topic or the matter? 

How helpful. As usual. 

[Qie Niangao]

1 hour ago, Solar Legion said:

Also problems like that are browser agnostic. 

Yeah. Some of the solutions in that article were for Chrome-specific problems, and some weren't. (Hilarity ensues.)

They thought of eleven solutions to list ahead of:

Quote

Solution 12 – Don’t use both Ethernet and Wi-Fi on a single device

According to users, A network change was detected error can appear if you’re using both Ethernet and Wi-Fi connection on your PC at the same time. This can lead to other issues besides this one, and in order to fix the problem, it’s advised to use just Wi-Fi or Ethernet.

Simply disable one network on your PC, and the problem should be completely resolved.

which was what came to mind first for me, along with the possibility of something gone wrong in a mesh WiFi setup (such as eero).

All of which is almost certainly irrelevant to the actual problem, unfortunately.

[Selene Gregoire]

2 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I don't use Google Chrome. 

They aren't all for Chrome.

[Prokofy Neva]

Yeah, I'm able to read. But most of it was about Chrome. Plus, imagine this: I got Error 21 months ago but SL played OK. So it may not be related. I just try to use the Socratic method. I realize this isn't fashionable anymore.

[Prokofy Neva]

4 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

 

 

 

 

Really, it's kind of sweet.

I think the two of you really kind of deserve each other. What fun you'd be together at a party!

It doesn't matter if the SL browser uses Chrome (it can't use Opera I don't think, which is what I have installed).

*I* don't use Chrome. And those instructions were mainly about Chrome. If LL's internal browser uses Chrome, which I'm aware of, so what?

It didn't matter before. What changed IN THEIR SOFTMARE? Not on MY MACHINE.

Windows 10 doesn't matter.

Because I've had SL play fine on Windows 10 months ago.

AND I would get Error 21 months ago and there wasn't the biggest problem I have now (as do others) -- the "blue spinny dial".

I don't have Ethernet.

And again, SL has played for years on my WiFi.

SOFTMARE. This is my new term.

 

Edited November 16, 2018 by Prokofy Neva

[Prokofy Neva]

5 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Hasn't this been a problem with sculpts since.. sculpts came out? It's an LOD problem, the highest level just doesn't get loaded sometimes for some sculpts. It can happen with mesh hair too, but it's way more common with sculpts (probably because sculpts are loaded through those JPEG2K textures, which themselves don't get prioritized properly sometimes unless you cam close and wait or right-click the object).

Everybody knows that. Merchants bombard you with cards about this. That's always been at issue. I try to get it put up to 4.125. But it's doing that EVEN WHEN LOD is set and WAY MORE OFTEN.

[Wulfie Reanimator]

3 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Everybody knows that. Merchants bombard you with cards about this. That's always been at issue. I try to get it put up to 4.125. But it's doing that EVEN WHEN LOD is set and WAY MORE OFTEN.

The problem happens regardless of your LOD settings, the highest detail just won't be loaded.

Also, options 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 9, 12 and 13 in that article are fixes you can and should try even if you don't have Google Chrome installed because the fix is general and has nothing to do with Google Chrome. Especially 2-5 and 12.

Whatever happened to getting those crash logs, by the way?

Edited November 16, 2018 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Resi Pfeffer]

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Everybody knows that. Merchants bombard you with cards about this. That's always been at issue. I try to get it put up to 4.125. But it's doing that EVEN WHEN LOD is set and WAY MORE OFTEN.

Maybe add some !!!!!!!!! and even more UPPER CASE words into your answers. This might make you feel you are right, but probably wont solve your problem.
 

13 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

@Resi Pfeffer I have 1.80 TB and Windows 10. That's not the issue.

You can have 527 TB of blue fermented cranberries, if you like.  I just told, what fixed my crashes.
 

[Tari Landar]

2 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

It doesn't matter if the SL browser uses Chrome (it can't use Opera I don't think, which is what I have installed).

*I* don't use Chrome. And those instructions were mainly about Chrome. If LL's internal browser uses Chrome, which I'm aware of, so what?

It didn't matter before. What changed IN THEIR SOFTMARE? Not on MY MACHINE.

Windows 10 doesn't matter.

Because I've had SL play fine on Windows 10 months ago.

AND I would get Error 21 months ago and there wasn't the biggest problem I have now (as do others) -- the "blue spinny dial".

I don't have Ethernet.

And again, SL has played for years on my WiFi.

SOFTMARE. This is my new term.

 

I'm going to ignore my best judgment for a minute, and try to help, try being the operative word. This is just in case anyone else is also having issues, really, because I know some people just don't like to listen to, let alone accept, any kind of advice, good or otherwise, lol. 

Your biggest problem....you're using wifi, and don't have (or won't use, whatever actually applies) ethernet. You can say "but sl worked months ago" until you're blue in the face, it won't change anything. Wifi is not reliable, there is no "but" that would make it so. Let me state that again....wifi, is not reliable. It doesn't matter how many years it has "worked reliably", it is, without a doubt, far less reliable than all wired connections, and no amount of your "but, but, but...it WORKED" will change this very real fact. I'm being intentionally redundant here, because this kind of attitude is extremely common, and I run into at least one person a day with the same "but it worked before" story(not related to sl, but similar enough). The one thing most can't seem to get through their heads is that it does not matter how reliable it was yesterday, two months ago, five years ago....it's friggen wifi, and you can't MAKE it more reliable than all wired connections, lol. That's not how things work..this is actually super important to remember. 

Your issue can be compounded by the numerous windows updates that have occurred since "months ago". Whether that is an issue with installing the updates, or not installing the updates, both can cause network issues, I'd look into that as well, especially given that it has slowly been causing issues that didn't exist previously. Look at EVERYTHING that has changed over the last "months"(or whatever time frame), including ANY software or hardware changes, updates, etc. 

You are *clearly, having a network issue (though its doubtful this is the only error you're experiencing, quite doubtful, it could simply be a byproduct of a bigger problem), your error actually tells you that (pretty straight forward even if you aren't tech savvy, and I'd rather not presume on that matter). Network issues are compounded when you're on wifi, you cannot escape them by trying to do something that relies heavily on a proper network connection . Yes, even when you're having network issues, things can "work fine", or at least seem to, that is, until they don't. In your case, they're not, and that's not remotely unusual to see the error but actually experience (or seem to) no issues at all.

COULD it be an update in LL's software gumming up the works? Of course it could

IS it an update or change in LL's software gumming up the works? Possibly, but you can't know this for certain until you actually check all other possibilities. One of which you've stated you either can't, or won't check, so you'll never know with any amount of certainty that it is indeed LL causing mayhem. It could be just as likely that you're causing it yourself, or windows, or some other incompatibility totally unrelated to sl, but only seeming to manifest itself within sl. 

I've had software compatibility and network issues over the years, over a few different systems, all varying in both severity and the effects they bring about.  Sometimes, I just have to wait it out, but not until I have tried literally everything reasonably possible (short of buying a new system, which is neither reasonable nor feasible). Sometimes the errors work themselves out once compatibility is properly met on both sides, with little to no involvement on my part (hello..graphics card driver issues..sheesh those are a pain). Often times, it's not, and it's something I can remedy myself...assuming I'm willing to accept I don't know everything, and actually listen to other people far more knowledgeable than myself

(and that is likely the biggest issue people run into when they're having performance problems...they don't wanna listen..because "noooooo it can't be that"). 

I do wish you the best, and I hope you find a solution that works for you soon, but I know the hard headed-ness, if you're truly experiencing issues (and I don't doubt you are), won't help you fix the problem. It'll probably just make you angrier about the issue instead. Well, I know it would me, because it has in the past, lol. I'm certain that I'm not alone in that thinking. 

[Selene Gregoire]

7 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

 

 

 

 

Really, it's kind of sweet.

I think the two of you really kind of deserve each other. What fun you'd be together at a party!

Wait...wait. You quoted four people. Which two are you referring to?

I better not be one of them. 

[Selene Gregoire]

My "off the wall" solutions were precisely why Ed asked me personally to join the Phoenix/FS support team 9 years ago. If someone doesn't want to listen and try some of the solutions offered or try even some of the off the wall things to fix a problem, that's on them, not the ones trying to help. 

Edited November 16, 2018 by Selene Gregoire

[animats]

It's quite possible to figure out what's going on when the viewer crashes. There's logging in "Firestorm.log". It's even possible to run self-compiled Firestorm under a debugger, which I have done. End users should never have to do this, but it's possible. Firestorm crashes tend to have very specific causes. Crashes at random places usually mean hardware trouble. Run a memory test. As I wrote before, download the Unreal Engine "Valley" benchmark. If you can't run that for an hour without a crash,  your computer is broken.

I've spent too much time reading Firestorm logs, trying to figure out region crossing failures. There's a lot of dirty laundry in there. You'll see many error messages that shoudln't be happening. Sometimes the sim tells the viewer to go to the content delivery network for an asset, and the CDN returns an HTTP 404 error, "Not Found". That should not be happening. But it happens once or twice a minute. You'll see other errors. Look through a Firestorm log for anything marked "WARNING". . None of those should crash the viewer, which is very tolerant of bad data from the servers.

My experience with SL at the coding level is that everything non-trivial seems to require a workaround for a known bug that's been in the JIRA for years. Linden Labs has a lot of technical debt. But you can still have lots of fun in SL.

Edited November 16, 2018 by animats

[Coby Foden]

11 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Hasn't this been a problem with sculpts since.. sculpts came out? It's an LOD problem, the highest level just doesn't get loaded sometimes for some sculpts. It can happen with mesh hair too, but it's way more common with sculpts (probably because sculpts are loaded through those JPEG2K textures, which themselves don't get prioritized properly sometimes unless you cam close and wait or right-click the object).

Yes, I have noticed that behaviour too. Sometimes sculpts don't get loaded until you cam close or right click on them. My hair flower had serious problem though. What ever I did it just didn't rez properly on that day. Until next day it rezzed nicely without any special actions needed.

[ChinRey]

14 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Hasn't this been a problem with sculpts since.. sculpts came out? It's an LOD problem, the highest level just doesn't get loaded sometimes for some sculpts. It can happen with mesh hair too, but it's way more common with sculpts (probably because sculpts are loaded through those JPEG2K textures, which themselves don't get prioritized properly sometimes unless you cam close and wait or right-click the object).

The main problem with sculpts seems to be in the way they are handled by the client's cpu. The file size of a well made sculpt map is so small it's hardly worth mentioning so download time doesn't matter much.

Without going into details (it gets very technical fast) a sculpt has to be converted into mesh before it can be rendered. In theory this is a very simple process but SL had no direct support for mesh back when sculpts were launched. So instead of doing it the straight way, LL came up with an absolutely gruesome hack to the prim and texture handling codes. Think of it as going from San Francisco to Los Angeles via New York.

 

9 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Everybody knows that. Merchants bombard you with cards about this. That's always been at issue. I try to get it put up to 4.125. But it's doing that EVEN WHEN LOD is set and WAY MORE OFTEN.

Increasing the LoD factor won't cure render failures, it will actually make them worse. To use another travelling metaphor, it's like trying to flog a horse within inches of its death to speed it up when it's already running as fast as it possibly can.

With the LoD factor you set the LoD level you want your viewer to achieve. When rendering stalls at too low a LoD level it's because the viewer is overworked and can't manage to reach the target. If you try to push it even harder by increasing the LoD factor and it will only struggle even more.

Edited November 16, 2018 by ChinRey

[Prokofy Neva]

This is the remedy merchants give, however. I think it would be nearly impossible to disseminate through the ranks the view/information you're trying to articulate here, because it won't be absorbed or believed.

[Prokofy Neva]

10 hours ago, animats said:

It's quite possible to figure out what's going on when the viewer crashes. There's logging in "Firestorm.log". It's even possible to run self-compiled Firestorm under a debugger, which I have done. End users should never have to do this, but it's possible. Firestorm crashes tend to have very specific causes. Crashes at random places usually mean hardware trouble. Run a memory test. As I wrote before, download the Unreal Engine "Valley" benchmark. If you can't run that for an hour without a crash,  your computer is broken.

I've spent too much time reading Firestorm logs, trying to figure out region crossing failures. There's a lot of dirty laundry in there. You'll see many error messages that shoudln't be happening. Sometimes the sim tells the viewer to go to the content delivery network for an asset, and the CDN returns an HTTP 404 error, "Not Found". That should not be happening. But it happens once or twice a minute. You'll see other errors. Look through a Firestorm log for anything marked "WARNING". . None of those should crash the viewer, which is very tolerant of bad data from the servers.

My experience with SL at the coding level is that everything non-trivial seems to require a workaround for a known bug that's been in the JIRA for years. Linden Labs has a lot of technical debt. But you can still have lots of fun in SL.

Those who don't know the history of Firestorm continue to use it. I don't.

[Prokofy Neva]

11 hours ago, Tari Landar said:

I'm going to ignore my best judgment for a minute, and try to help, try being the operative word. This is just in case anyone else is also having issues, really, because I know some people just don't like to listen to, let alone accept, any kind of advice, good or otherwise, lol. 

Your biggest problem....you're using wifi, and don't have (or won't use, whatever actually applies) ethernet. You can say "but sl worked months ago" until you're blue in the face, it won't change anything. Wifi is not reliable, there is no "but" that would make it so. Let me state that again....wifi, is not reliable. It doesn't matter how many years it has "worked reliably", it is, without a doubt, far less reliable than all wired connections, and no amount of your "but, but, but...it WORKED" will change this very real fact. I'm being intentionally redundant here, because this kind of attitude is extremely common, and I run into at least one person a day with the same "but it worked before" story(not related to sl, but similar enough). The one thing most can't seem to get through their heads is that it does not matter how reliable it was yesterday, two months ago, five years ago....it's friggen wifi, and you can't MAKE it more reliable than all wired connections, lol. That's not how things work..this is actually super important to remember. 

Your issue can be compounded by the numerous windows updates that have occurred since "months ago". Whether that is an issue with installing the updates, or not installing the updates, both can cause network issues, I'd look into that as well, especially given that it has slowly been causing issues that didn't exist previously. Look at EVERYTHING that has changed over the last "months"(or whatever time frame), including ANY software or hardware changes, updates, etc. 

You are *clearly, having a network issue (though its doubtful this is the only error you're experiencing, quite doubtful, it could simply be a byproduct of a bigger problem), your error actually tells you that (pretty straight forward even if you aren't tech savvy, and I'd rather not presume on that matter). Network issues are compounded when you're on wifi, you cannot escape them by trying to do something that relies heavily on a proper network connection . Yes, even when you're having network issues, things can "work fine", or at least seem to, that is, until they don't. In your case, they're not, and that's not remotely unusual to see the error but actually experience (or seem to) no issues at all.

COULD it be an update in LL's software gumming up the works? Of course it could

IS it an update or change in LL's software gumming up the works? Possibly, but you can't know this for certain until you actually check all other possibilities. One of which you've stated you either can't, or won't check, so you'll never know with any amount of certainty that it is indeed LL causing mayhem. It could be just as likely that you're causing it yourself, or windows, or some other incompatibility totally unrelated to sl, but only seeming to manifest itself within sl. 

I've had software compatibility and network issues over the years, over a few different systems, all varying in both severity and the effects they bring about.  Sometimes, I just have to wait it out, but not until I have tried literally everything reasonably possible (short of buying a new system, which is neither reasonable nor feasible). Sometimes the errors work themselves out once compatibility is properly met on both sides, with little to no involvement on my part (hello..graphics card driver issues..sheesh those are a pain). Often times, it's not, and it's something I can remedy myself...assuming I'm willing to accept I don't know everything, and actually listen to other people far more knowledgeable than myself

(and that is likely the biggest issue people run into when they're having performance problems...they don't wanna listen..because "noooooo it can't be that"). 

I do wish you the best, and I hope you find a solution that works for you soon, but I know the hard headed-ness, if you're truly experiencing issues (and I don't doubt you are), won't help you fix the problem. It'll probably just make you angrier about the issue instead. Well, I know it would me, because it has in the past, lol. I'm certain that I'm not alone in that thinking. 

WiFi has generally always worked with SL. For years. So I can't take what you say seriously. It's a religious belief that I realize you have, but the parishioners have practical experience that overturns it.

The Windows updates are installed, as they always are. I realize the Unix geeks have a fit over Windoz and think it's responsible for global warming and so on, but most normal people use it. And SL works on it, most of the time.

I have no reason to believe it is suddenly WiFi, and no reason to believe it is suddenly Windows. Because the obvious question then is this: if LL made their softmare work with Windows and WiFi before, what are THEY doing different NOW? Not what I'm doing different, as I am only one person, not a softmare company.

Geeks always do all sorts of things like fixing macros or bios or reticulating splines or whatever they do. But this is masochistic. This is Stockholm Syndrome. The question to ask is what is LL doing DIFFERENT? And the ready answer is: THE CLOUD. But that's a very broad subject and since generally SL played even after they moved to the cloud, I'd have to ask: what are they doing different now with the Cloud? Or does this happen after time?

You would think computer scientists, being scientists, would be curious, and apply the scientific method. But instead, they apply religious beliefs at times like this. It's not about hard-headedness. It's about pointing out the stubborn religious beliefs of others that get in the way of science.

[Love Zhaoying]

8 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

You would think computer scientists, being scientists, would be curious, and apply the scientific method. But instead, they apply religious beliefs at times like this. It's not about hard-headedness. It's about pointing out the stubborn religious beliefs of others that get in the way of science.

If it were happening to us, we would check the logs as has been suggested.

[animats]

The main grid sim servers are not in "the cloud" yet.

The asset servers have been on Amazon AWS, front-ended by Akamai's web content delivery network, for years. The asset system works just like the Web; the viewer makes an HTTP request for a URL and it (usually) gets a texture or a mesh back. That's all standard technology.

If the viewer is crashing, something is wrong in the viewer or on the machine it is running on.

If Firestorm is crashing, you can probably get help from Firestorm support, and there are tools for analyzing Firestorm crashes. If the LL viewer is crashing, you'll have to rely on Linden Labs support.

Have you run the "Valley" test yet to check out your machine?

[Wulfie Reanimator]

"I don't understand the cloud, so I don't like it. The problem must be the cloud. I refuse to help myself because it has to be cloud."

Here lies the thread.

[Tari Landar]

57 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

WiFi has generally always worked with SL. For years. So I can't take what you say seriously. It's a religious belief that I realize you have, but the parishioners have practical experience that overturns it.ly okay t

The Windows updates are installed, as they always are. I realize the Unix geeks have a fit over Windoz and think it's responsible for global warming and so on, but most normal people use it. And SL works on it, most of the time.

I have no reason to believe it is suddenly WiFi, and no reason to believe it is suddenly Windows. Because the obvious question then is this: if LL made their softmare work with Windows and WiFi before, what are THEY doing different NOW? Not what I'm doing different, as I am only one person, not a softmare company.

Geeks always do all sorts of things like fixing macros or bios or reticulating splines or whatever they do. But this is masochistic. This is Stockholm Syndrome. The question to ask is what is LL doing DIFFERENT? And the ready answer is: THE CLOUD. But that's a very broad subject and since generally SL played even after they moved to the cloud, I'd have to ask: what are they doing different now with the Cloud? Or does this happen after time?

You would think computer scientists, being scientists, would be curious, and apply the scientific method. But instead, they apply religious beliefs at times like this. It's not about hard-headedness. It's about pointing out the stubborn religious beliefs of others that get in the way of science.

Sigh, and this is why you can't get help....for everyone just coming in...this is how we ensure we're going to get no help from anyone/.

A-I am a geek, and a nerd, a scientist, a programmer..I'm all kinds of things, and I don't consider that a bad thing, attempting to use it as if it's going to insult me further reiterates my first line  Oh and I'm rarely "religious"(and by that I assume you mean fanatical) about much of anything...BECAUSE I believe, wholeheartedly, in science and figuring things out, versus finding one way and assuming that is the only way-even when it's really not. 

B-I like windows, despite it's issues, and I'm not making wild suggestions that the average computer user would not understand

C-Yes, wifi, and windows(ANY operating system!!) can periodically become incompatible with something else, this isn't new, and you're old enough, and have used computers long enough, to know this for a fact. You even mentioned remembering graphics driver issues earlier on in the thread, so, you damn well know it happens.

D-Anyone else with similar issues, please take a look at anything and everything that has changed since the last time "it worked fine", because I can assure you, there is always a reason. It IS possible-as I plainly stated-that LL is the culprit, or something they did anyway. However, it is usually MORE likely, that something on your end changed, often times without your knowledge. Please be open to checking out all of the possibilities before declaring some kind of verbal victory that rests on the laurels of an uneducated assumption. It's perfectly okay to not know what's going on (who the hell always does? lmao, things happen, things break, things get rendered incompatible, don't have to be a genius to see that). But being close minded and unwilling to even lend a moment of thought to all the possibilities won't solve your problem..