I Have Cut My Time in SL In Half

[Telehub Ross]

I have cut my time in SL in half and sold another half tier of land because...SL doesn't work. Again. For a long period of time. Is this the result of "moving to the cloud"? Or what? Others tell me they have the same experience and some of my tenants move out of SL completely and go play WoW even or SC2 because SL just doesn't work and they are tired.

I've been in SL for 14 years. I should have a Ph.D. in physics and computer science by now, given all the intensive work I've done on getting this game world to work.

Really, it's not that my "computer is ready to go to kindergarten" as a Linden once witheringly said. It's not even off its sippy-cup yet at about 18 months.  It has all the required things, and a GeForce graphics card that I am assured is better than the specs LL requires. I do not have packet loss, and I've long since stopped going to my ISP with SL issues because they laugh in my face.

Yes, I know the drill -- I reduce graphics setting, I undo shadings and lights and lower draw distances.

I clear cache. I reinstall. I check whether the AV program is interfering. I check portals. I check the phase of the moon. I even delete settings.xml which used to be like this little magic trick. I update drivers. I roll drivers back. Yes, I turned of GeForce's latest ShadowPlay thing. It's not working.

I don't mind gray squares for 10 minutes. What I really mind now is that I can't click on, say, a land menu or a person's profile or anything without getting a blue dial that takes a minute to revolve. I can literally go away and fry and egg or make a cup of tea and then maybe it will be done. If it hasn't crashed, which occurs about 6 out of 10 times. It really kills enjoyment of SL. I do take care of my customers. But those long hours of building or designing or attending events or whatever which I used to enjoy  -- they're gone. 

I literally have gone over to the reconstituted The Sims Online (called Free Sims Online) because it works a lot of the time and the people are nicer and it's at that stage where the devs instantly help and even come to your lot to fix things. That won't last, as I know.

My question is simple. When will Linden Lab design a computer and select a graphics card and sell it bundled with their software? Because I will buy it. That is all.

 

(This is from Prokofy Neva but I was logged in on my other account and I can't figure out how to delete posts and I've too tired to keep looking.)

Edited November 14, 2018 by Telehub Ross

[Qie Niangao]

54 minutes ago, Telehub Ross said:

When will Linden Lab design a computer and select a graphics card and sell it bundled with their software? Because I will buy it. That is all.

Hard to imagine there's much of a market for such a thing, but the next-best thing might be possible: a sure-fire setup using readily available off-the-shelf components. Buy this exact box, add this and only this software, click "go". 

I've been having a lot of trouble with SL lately, too, and it's very frustrating. I'm pretty convinced, finally, that the key is adding "and only this software" -- that something else has broken what was a well-behaved installation, if only I could find and remove the offending package. (In my case, I can reliably cause any SL viewer to crash just by running Firestorm once after booting while Chrome is running. Or running two simultaneous sessions of any combination of SL viewers. And sometimes, rarely, other combinations, just to keep it interesting.) I suspect that underneath it all is an incompatibility of nVidia's drivers and some other driver or service running on my machine.

Because viewer developers evidently have no such problems, I'll bet that if I started from a fresh, fully updated Windows 10 installation on any reasonable PC, added any single choice of SL viewer and nothing else, everything would work just fine.

[Jules Catlyn]

Due to financial restraints i play Second Life on a rather old low end computer and have found the experience still to be very pleasing. I can't run the latest and greatest graphics but the interaction with friends and others plus being creative makes it totally worthwhile for me. I do not experience any other major technical issues at all.

Edited November 14, 2018 by Jules Catlyn

[Ethan Paslong]

2 hours ago, Telehub Ross said:

I ....... because .....the people are nicer

(This is from Prokofy Neva.....)

now this made the grey mist over my head poof for a while .. you managed to get me smiling.

[ThorinII]

1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

In my case, I can reliably cause any SL viewer to crash just by running Firestorm once after booting while Chrome is running. Or running two simultaneous sessions of any combination of SL viewers

I don't know, I can run Firestorm plus 2x CoolVL Viewer parallel, plus having15 tabs in Firefox open plus Thunderbird, plus transform a video using Handbrake - and still get around 30 fps on each of the viewers without any crashes. And my desktop box is assembled of rather low-budget components.

 

CPU: AMD FX(tm)-6100 Six-Core Processor (3300 MHz)
RAM: 16 GB
OS Version: Linux 4.12.14-lp150.12.25-default #1 SMP Thu Nov 1 06:14:23 UTC 2018 (3fcf457) x86_64
(more exactly: OpenSUSE 15.0)
Graphics Card: NVidia GeForce GTX 950/PCIe/SSE2

 

Edited November 14, 2018 by ThorinII

[Talligurl]

I have a pretty low end computer, I am able to do SL without much trouble, true I often have to turn down the graphics to move around. and sometimes everything freezes up and I have to restart, but as for it not working that just isn't true.

[Qie Niangao]

11 minutes ago, ThorinII said:

I don't know, I can run Firestorm plus 2x CoolVL Viewer parallel, plus having15 tabs in Firefox open plus Thunderbird, plus transform a video using Handbrake - and still get around 30 fps on each of the viewers without any crashes. And my desktop box is assembled of rather low budget components.

Yeah, until about six months ago, I could too. Something changed. I'm just saying that if I zero'd my disk and started from scratch, installing only what I absolutely need, I bet I'd be fine again. But tracking down what's incompatible with what at this point is as near hopeless as makes no difference.

[Arduenn Schwartzman]

4 hours ago, Telehub Ross said:

When will Linden Lab design a computer and select a graphics card and sell it bundled with their software?

Never.

But these computers are already out there if you are prepared to pay for them. An i9 9900 + RTX 2080 for around 2000 $ should get you around SL comfortably and allow you to do tons of stuff on the side. And a nice internet connection not over WiFi but ethernet.

The biggest contributors to a slow SL are content creators who don't mind a 100k of mesh triangles for a pair of glasses and use a dozen of 1024 x 1024 textures for evil, scripters who don't mind using 5 scripts for some texture changing HUD adding up to 200+ scripts per avatar and the consumer who isn't too conscious about their avatar complexity.

But leave the cloud alone!!!

Edited November 14, 2018 by Arduenn Schwartzman

[Alyona Su]

Oooh, goody! Another rant thread! (Happy to know you're still alive and kicking, Prok!)

We all know that Windows eats itself slowly over time. It's probably time to wipe everything out and reinstall fresh - not the viewer, but MS Windows itself. It's amazing what an across-the-board performance boost one gets when they do that.

Every time I see when someone mentions, complains, rants about how "broken" SL is, it often has to do with "Have graphics at max and no I won't change them" then "I use X viewer and refuse to even try any other" then it's... well, name just about anything they are too stubborn to do differently. A.K.A. Insanity. ~laughs~ BUT, OP is saying they have tried minimum graphics, minimum settings, etc. Well, then it sounds like it's not an SL viewer issue then, does it?

I love it when the Greater-Than-Thou uber-nerd types who love to proclaim how they can run ten copies of the viewer simultaneously without so much as a hiccup in frame rates feel the constant urge to let us all know it. Congratulations and good for you, but how does beating your chest in superiority proclaiming your computer is Uber-God in any way helpful or useful to anyone else? Just asking. But it's okay, as long as you feel superior to everyone else.

Hey, Prok: Reinstall your entire system, then install LL viewer, go with the defaults in settings. All functions and tools won't be affected. If that doesn't work then it may be time to upgrade that ten-year-old machine you're using. Otherwise: good luck with that.

Edited November 14, 2018 by Alyona Su

[Whirly Fizzle]

6 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

I've been having a lot of trouble with SL lately, too, and it's very frustrating. I'm pretty convinced, finally, that the key is adding "and only this software" -- that something else has broken what was a well-behaved installation, if only I could find and remove the offending package. (In my case, I can reliably cause any SL viewer to crash just by running Firestorm once after booting while Chrome is running. Or running two simultaneous sessions of any combination of SL viewers. And sometimes, rarely, other combinations, just to keep it interesting.) I suspect that underneath it all is an incompatibility of nVidia's drivers and some other driver or service running on my machine.

Does the viewer crash to desktop or is it freezing or disconnecting?
Feel free to send me your Firestorm logs from a crashed session.

[LittleMe Jewell]

5 hours ago, ThorinII said:

I don't know, I can run Firestorm plus 2x CoolVL Viewer parallel, plus having15 tabs in Firefox open plus Thunderbird, plus transform a video using Handbrake - and still get around 30 fps on each of the viewers without any crashes. And my desktop box is assembled of rather low-budget components.

  Hide contents

CPU: AMD FX(tm)-6100 Six-Core Processor (3300 MHz)
RAM: 16 GB
OS Version: Linux 4.12.14-lp150.12.25-default #1 SMP Thu Nov 1 06:14:23 UTC 2018 (3fcf457) x86_64
(more exactly: OpenSUSE 15.0)
Graphics Card: NVidia GeForce GTX 950/PCIe/SSE2

 

Pretty much this for me. While some parts of SL seem to have slowed a bit over the last 6 months or so, it still runs really nicely - well above what many people consider to be an acceptable level.  I always have Firefox open with roughly a dozen tabs, typically 2 Chrome windows with 8-12 tabs each and Thunderbird email.  Much of the time I'll also have my picture editing software running.  I only sometimes run 2 or 3 viewers together - usually only if I'm trying to figure out something that needs multiple avatars involved.  With all of that, in most places all textures are rezzed in 10-20 seconds and I get > 60 FPS.  The only time I bogged down is at super crowded events where nobody seems able to move.

[Conifer Dada]

I've found SL performance has deteriorated recently too.  Earlier this year I was lucky enough to get a new computer and the performance was amazing compared to what I'd been used to. I also have fast broadband.  The fact that SL worked really well until a couple of months ago would indicate that it's not a computer or internet problem as nothing has changed with either of these things. The issues I have now are slow rezzing of avatars in situations where they used to rez quickly, applied textures on mesh avatars (tattoos etc.) not rezzing fully and staying blurred and textures in general re-rezzing periodically and going blurred. 

SL still works a lot better than on the old computer, but not as well as it did a few months ago.  That's my impression anyway.

 

[Prokofy Neva]

9 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

I've been having a lot of trouble with SL lately, too, and it's very frustrating. I'm pretty convinced, finally, that the key is adding "and only this software" -- that something else has broken what was a well-behaved installation, if only I could find and remove the offending package. (In my case, I can reliably cause any SL viewer to crash just by running Firestorm once after booting while Chrome is running. Or running two simultaneous sessions of any combination of SL viewers. And sometimes, rarely, other combinations, just to keep it interesting.) I suspect that underneath it all is an incompatibility of nVidia's drivers and some other driver or service running on my machine.

Because viewer developers evidently have no such problems, I'll bet that if I started from a fresh, fully updated Windows 10 installation on any reasonable PC, added any single choice of SL viewer and nothing else, everything would work just fine.

Thank you. Occasionally I will run two SL browsers but most of the time no, and that's not the issue.

The other application open is Opera Browser, it might have 2 tabs or 10 tabs, doesn't make a difference. Or I have Opera off completely.

I go on Task Manager and suspend every other unnecessary application. No difference in terms of SL.

Perhaps it is the GeForce drivers, it's been Nvidia before. I remember my first encounter with the general beastly tech culture in SL was when I innocently asked about drivers and was pulverized with withering scorn that I even had such a driver. But on another day it could be another driver and another company. I remember people saying that LL doesn't try to collaborate with these driver companies at all or adapt to them, but others saying, no, there are even people from those companies working now in SL -- as you know every large IT company in the known universe has come through SL in the form of staff at one time or another, and exited to every other known big IT company. But maybe there's something there.

Yes, viewer developers probably have NOTHING ELSE but windows 10 and SL on their machines, but I don't have the patience to try to re-do all that -- I have RL work to do and can't afford to have Windows mess up now. If that's the issue, sad, but you know, I'll move on.

[Prokofy Neva]

3 hours ago, Whirly Fizzle said:

Does the viewer crash to desktop or is it freezing or disconnecting?
Feel free to send me your Firestorm logs from a crashed session.

As you know I refuse to use Firestorm or any other 3rd party viewer. I only used the bog-standard SL viewer. It is endlessly freezing or crashing. If relevant I can try to find the SL browser logs for you, tell me where they are.

[Prokofy Neva]

4 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

Oooh, goody! Another rant thread! (Happy to know you're still alive and kicking, Prok!)

We all know that Windows eats itself slowly over time. It's probably time to wipe everything out and reinstall fresh - not the viewer, but MS Windows itself. It's amazing what an across-the-board performance boost one gets when they do that.

Every time I see when someone mentions, complains, rants about how "broken" SL is, it often has to do with "Have graphics at max and no I won't change them" then "I use X viewer and refuse to even try any other" then it's... well, name just about anything they are too stubborn to do differently. A.K.A. Insanity. ~laughs~ BUT, OP is saying they have tried minimum graphics, minimum settings, etc. Well, then it sounds like it's not an SL viewer issue then, does it?

I love it when the Greater-Than-Thou uber-nerd types who love to proclaim how they can run ten copies of the viewer simultaneously without so much as a hiccup in frame rates feel the constant urge to let us all know it. Congratulations and good for you, but how does beating your chest in superiority proclaiming your computer is Uber-God in any way helpful or useful to anyone else? Just asking. But it's okay, as long as you feel superior to everyone else.

Hey, Prok: Reinstall your entire system, then install LL viewer, go with the defaults in settings. All functions and tools won't be affected. If that doesn't work then it may be time to upgrade that ten-year-old machine you're using. Otherwise: good luck with that.

The "upgrade your ten-year-old machine" scorn is really an old chestnut by now. As I said, my computer is barely taking solids now -- read what I wrote.

No one should have to "re-install their entire system" to get SL to work. I've been playing SL for 14 years. My consistent experience hundreds and hundreds of times has been that if there isn't an obvious problem like packet loss or a driver with a definite message -- and there isn't now --  that it isn't on my side. And it goes away. It goes away. It goes away. Because it's about their software, and not my machine, regardless of what they and their fanboyz say. Because it goes away. Another few turns of the patches every week, who knows, it may all clear up. This has just been a particularly long period.

BTW I should mention that recently I was away for a week, and visiting various relatives and friends where I'd stay, so I'd try SL on their computers and I could not even manage to move at all in SL. The only reason I can at home is that when I bought my computer, I got them to install a better graphics card and a fan to go with it to get it to play.

BTW in FSO, I literally have heard dozens of people tell me that they fled SL. If you ever want to go and see where the other nine people are out of 10 who tried and left SL are, go to FSO. Some were even in SL for years. Either there were technical problems or they couldn't stand the griefing and sexual harassment.

[Prokofy Neva]

6 hours ago, Arduenn Schwartzman said:

Never.

But these computers are already out there if you are prepared to pay for them. An i9 9900 + RTX 2080 for around 2000 $ should get you around SL comfortably and allow you to do tons of stuff on the side. And a nice internet connection not over WiFi but ethernet.

The biggest contributors to a slow SL are content creators who don't mind a 100k of mesh triangles for a pair of glasses and use a dozen of 1024 x 1024 textures for evil, scripters who don't mind using 5 scripts for some texture changing HUD adding up to 200+ scripts per avatar and the consumer who isn't too conscious about their avatar complexity.

But leave the cloud alone!!!

It's not about wi-fi. I have wi-fi and have for years. But SL has played well more often than not over those years.

The cloud is the new variable that may indeed account for worse performance. And there is nothing wrong with the cloud. It's just other people's computers, nothing magical.

It's not about textures and scripts. I have several nearly-empty sims I go to, Linden water or whatever, where nothing is happening at all, and I still sit there after log-in unable to see or click on anything for 5 minutes. Obviously, if you go to a big event with lots of avatars, you will move slowly and see poorly. But now I find that even just to try to go to such an event causes a crash and that's it.

[Prokofy Neva]

7 hours ago, Talligurl said:

I have a pretty low end computer, I am able to do SL without much trouble, true I often have to turn down the graphics to move around. and sometimes everything freezes up and I have to restart, but as for it not working that just isn't true.

It's not true *for you*. Works On My Machine award to you! But it's true *for other people* and that's why one posts on the forums, perhaps we'll find something that works to fix it, or there will be enough of us that the Lindens might care. That's all. It's not at all about "Works on My Machine".

[Qie Niangao]

3 hours ago, Whirly Fizzle said:

Does the viewer crash to desktop or is it freezing or disconnecting?
Feel free to send me your Firestorm logs from a crashed session.

In my case, the screen goes black for a bit and the viewer (Firestorm or other) crashes to the desktop. Sometimes it takes Chrome with it. (Not sure there's anything special about Chrome; there may be, but it's the most certain other program to be running on my machine.)

At that point, I can re-launch a viewer and it will connect and usually rez-in and work normally for a few minutes before crashing again. A fresh boot will get me back to normal and things work fine for days at a stretch until I run more than one viewer at once, or Firestorm.

I may eventually take you up on sending the logs -- thanks for the offer! -- just in case it helps make the program more robust w.r.t. whatever ails my machine. At some point I'll bestir myself to either wipe disk and reinstall everything from scratch, or buy new hardware (which I've eschewed mostly to avoid reinstalling everything from scratch).

[Wulfie Reanimator]

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

It has all the required things, and a GeForce graphics card that I am assured is better than the specs LL requires.

Then what is the graphics card? Did you omit the model because you don't know what it is, or because you don't want to say what it is? Either way, how can you assure anything with a statement like that?

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I do not have packet loss, and I've long since stopped going to my ISP with SL issues because they laugh in my face.

Your graphics card or how powerful your computer is plays no part in packet loss or your network in general.

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I don't mind gray squares for 10 minutes. What I really mind now is that I can't click on, say, a land menu or a person's profile or anything without getting a blue dial that takes a minute to revolve.

Okay so this is definitely a network issue, at least. Good to know.

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

If  it hasn't crashed, which occurs about 6 out of 10 times.

Get those logs from C:\Users\<your windows username>\appdata\roaming\secondlife\logs
Assuming you are using Windows 7/8/10 and I also assume the file is called "crashreport.log"

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

My question is simple. When  will Linden Lab design a computer and select a graphics card and sell it bundled with their software? Because I will buy it. That is all.

That is unrealistic to expect and unrealistic to actually do. Standardized hardware requires standardized software. Second Life has no real standards, just hard limits which aren't enough to create a standard for all assets, especially when the world is open for anyone to make anything within those broad, hard limits.

What is a real problem that I have confirmed is that the couple viewers (based on the official viewer) I've tested fail to make use of excess resources, most importantly the idle time on your CPU/GPU. Even if you had 10 graphics cards and 64 cores in your processor, you wouldn't get SL running any smoother than you would with a more generally thought out hardware setup.

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Another few turns of the patches every week, who knows, it may all clear up. This has just been a particularly long period.

It's not about wi-fi. I have wi-fi and have for years. But SL has played well more often than not over those years.

The cloud is the new variable that may indeed account for worse performance. And there is nothing wrong with the cloud. It's just other people's computers, nothing magical.

Correlation doesn't mean causation. You might think LL making updates on their side is somehow messing up your experience (besides when the whole grid goes down, but even then it's not always LL's fault), but other things could easily be a factor -- especially if you are on WiFi. WiFi is not magic. WiFi is that white noise you used to get on old TVs. WiFi is shot out in every direction by all WiFi-capable devices and it is very easy for your smart-TV/phone/toaster to get in the way of your router's WiFi signal intended for your computer. It could be your neighbor. It could be your ISP. It could be a physical problem in the underground cables.

Edited November 14, 2018 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Whirly Fizzle]

11 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Okay so this is definitely a network issue, at least. Good to know.

It may not be.
It sounds like the viewer is going into "not responding.." when Prok opens a land menu/profile etc.
That could be caused by CPU or RAM maxing out at near100%, or disk activity being pinned near 100%.
A misbehaving antivirus software can cause all those problems. So could malware.
Antivirus can also cause extremely slow rezzing - for both cached & uncached content.

For what it's worth, I run SL on both my Windows 7 desktop & my Windows 10 laptop.
I use both Firestorm & the LL viewer.
I haven't noticed any poorer performance then usual or slower rezzing then usual, though I have just recently got my connection upgraded to fibre & that makes a massive difference in how quickly things rez.

Both Prok & Qie are suffering from frequent viewer crashes too though - in a way this is good.  The crash logs should give a clue what the problem is.

[animats]

As someone who mostly runs self-compiled Firestorm on Linux, I tend to see different problems. Firestorm 5.1.9 hasn't crashed in months since I fixed the "5 channel JPEG" bug, except when I was experimenting with rapidly changing graphics settings to adjust the frame rate. But there was a time when Firestorm crashed a lot for me.

It turned out to be a memory error. I ran memory tests for hours, and was getting a memory error a few times an hour. Replaced all DRAM and the memory errors, and crashes, stopped. If things are crashing for no reason, running a memory test is useful.

A test worth running is the 2013 Unreal Engine 4 "Valley" benchmark. This is a test for graphics cards that pushes them hard. It's also a large and very well drawn virtual landscape you can wander around.  Start that up and run it for an hour. If "Valley" runs reliably, your CPU and GPU are OK for Second Life.

Edited November 14, 2018 by animats

[Wulfie Reanimator]

1 minute ago, Whirly Fizzle said:

It may not be.
It sounds like the viewer is going into "not responding.." when Prok opens a land menu/profile etc.
That could be caused by CPU or RAM maxing out at near100%, or disk activity being pinned near 100%.
A misbehaving antivirus software can cause all those problems. So could malware.
Antivirus can also cause extremely slow rezzing - for both cached & uncached content.

For what it's worth, I run SL on both my Windows 7 desktop & my Windows 10 laptop.
I use both Firestorm & the LL viewer.
I haven't noticed any poorer performance then usual or slower rezzing then usual, though I have just recently got my connection upgraded to fibre & that makes a massive difference in how quickly things rez.

Both Prok & Qie are suffering from frequent viewer crashes too though - in a way this is good.  The crash logs should give a clue what the problem is.

Reading it again in that context, you might be right. "A blue dial" was very vague, I was thinking web profile loading since grey textures and WiFi was mentioned.

[Whirly Fizzle]

2 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

I was thinking web profile loading

Yeah could be slow web profile loading too, which unfortunately really is a problem. It's as slow as *****  lol.

[Solar Legion]

None of the responses here came even close to "Works On My Machine" - enough of that dismissive tripe, you're just not getting the response or tone you want.

WiFi - despite its advances - is still rather bad for using Second Life. Don't want to use a wired connection? Deal with the consequences.

When you bought your machine is absolutely irrelevant - it simply is. What you have for hardware is relevant.

What you use as an Operating System is also relevant.

Who left (no matter the reason) and who stayed using Second Life .... is irrelevant.

Your personal issues regarding TPVs ... are irrelevant.

You want help? Well at least one poster here has stepped up to the plate (as Whirly often does) - take what is offered.

Oh and as for deleting posts? Only a Linden can do that these days, sorry.

Edited November 14, 2018 by Solar Legion

[Tari Landar]

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

 

BTW in FSO, I literally have heard dozens of people tell me that they fled SL. If you ever want to go and see where the other nine people are out of 10 who tried and left SL are, go to FSO. Some were even in SL for years. Either there were technical problems or they couldn't stand the griefing and sexual harassment.

Are you talking about FreeSo (and not FSO?), if so, stick around, you'll find that a massive part of the population (which is small in and of itself) is actually in SL as well as FreeSo, lol. Many of those who say they "left sl", are flat lying, because it makes for good conversation to bash one platform while in another  FreeSo is chock full of lots of great people, but trust me when I tell you, it's had as many, if not more, growing pains too (with people AND the platform), some of them pretty damn bad lol. Don't be surprised if you run into them and all of a sudden you're facing the same issues (been there, done that, have all the tshirts...sigh...none of these platforms are as solid sturdy, or reliable as they COULD be). 

I can commiserate with your sl issues, because I've been through it myself too. Whether or not this is something anyone can(will, actually) really "fix" is, I suppose, debatable, but personally I think the answer is "not unless they really, really, really want to...or it benefits them in some manner). Now that could be the system owner, or the devs of various things, it's hard to say. I know there are loads of things we can do for ourselves, I have no doubt you've tried many of them. But I also know that while many will slam SL, ok LL, for "not being compatible" with other product/software devs...sometimes, it's the other dv being a jackass, and not sl/ll at all. It sucks, but it happens. I can also say that when I went through(go through) my issues, often times, over time, they resolve themselves, typically after I've already given up doing what I can on my end, and gotten used to whatever is going wrong. Not saying this is your only option, or that it's even the wisest move, just saying it's been my experience.

Best of luck to you, hopefully someone can come along and assist you in some fashion.