Neighbor with big amount of breedables, problem?

[Zeta Vandyke]

Im rebuilding my 1/2 sim on a new location, foun dince spot, no lag really. Bene building for a few days now, and just noticed the neighboring 1/2 sim has tons of breedable horses (counted 80 already)

https://gyazo.com/2d6f30dbd947327d265e531f49e60a48

They are high up on platforms like these, and I am not noticing any lag. But will this be a problem, crashing sim for example? And do breedables somehow count to agent limit of a sim?

[Alwin Alcott]

47 minutes ago, Zeta Vandyke said:

Im rebuilding my 1/2 sim on a new location, foun dince spot, no lag really. Bene building for a few days now, and just noticed the neighboring 1/2 sim has tons of breedable horses (counted 80 already)

https://gyazo.com/2d6f30dbd947327d265e531f49e60a48

They are high up on platforms like these, and I am not noticing any lag. But will this be a problem, crashing sim for example? And do breedables somehow count to agent limit of a sim?

like you can do with your land, your neigbour can. If your neighbour has (eg) 10k prims/li available, he can use that... and so can you. But when those 20k prims have 1024x textures on it, you'll regret it both.. and still would be in your right.

There are no schedules nor hard limits for what you can use from sim resources. Normally you would say we own half, so those are also in half, but that's not how it goes normally.
It's a bit give and take to bothe sides, not even planned or agreed, but go with the flow ( of course when the sim gets unusable it's a different story)

tip: don't perv or control on your neighbour, it's often how drama starts, it's not your business. Just have a look how all performs at your side.. and if thats ok.. simply leave it that way.

Edited July 21, 2018 by Alwin Alcott

[Zeta Vandyke]

Oh I'm not wanting to cause drama, all I want to know if it will cause any technical issues or hit limits on my own 1/2 of the sim. Because I would be awfully disappointed if I would have to move my place again after a week of building because I hit limits in some way

I'm quite a heavy user myself, 40 to 60 avies traffic, so I will be the last to judge

[LittleMe Jewell]

1 hour ago, Zeta Vandyke said:

noticed the neighboring 1/2 sim

If it is within the same sim as your location, then it could cause lag for you as you are all sharing the same resources. 

If it is a neighboring sim, maybe and maybe not, depending on whether it is on the same server backend and how LL has things on the server set up.  

If it is already there and you are not noticing any issues, then I wouldn't worry about it.

[Qie Niangao]

27 minutes ago, Zeta Vandyke said:

I'm quite a heavy user myself, 40 to 60 avies traffic, so I will be the last to judge

That could be a problem, if the horses and the avatars are in the same region. That's because avatars come with many more scripts than they used to, and (some common) breedable horses are also extremely script-heavy, so they're likely to compete for the exact same resource: script time.

Now, of all the kinds of lag, script-on-script lag is relatively tolerable, at least compared to sim-crashing varieties. Folks will notice, however, that scripts run much slower. A common example is opening the HUD for a mesh avatar to adjust an alpha cut (say) and finding that the HUD takes five minutes to open and another few minutes to push a change to the avatar. It's not a showstopper, but it's very, very evident.

I'd suggest opening the Statistics window (Control-Shift-1) and looking at the Simulator measurement "Scripts Run" -- that should be a solid 100%, certainly no less than 95%, before you start adding a bunch of avatars to the mix. Also check under Time for "Spare Time" -- you'll need a bunch of that (the more the better) to run dozens of avatars' attachments.

[KanryDrago]

if you are having 40 to 60 avi's over at a time I suspect it should likely be your neighbour making the post wondering how it will effect them

[Zeta Vandyke]

6 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

I'd suggest opening the Statistics window (Control-Shift-1) and looking at the Simulator measurement "Scripts Run" -- that should be a solid 100%, certainly no less than 95%, before you start adding a bunch of avatars to the mix. Also check under Time for "Spare Time" -- you'll need a bunch of that (the more the better) to run dozens of avatars' attachments.

I'm not scoring to high then.. https://gyazo.com/edf83cfb2baf7744f5a1b7d855fc6a08

 

[Qie Niangao]

Yeah, that's... not good. The horses in that half-sim are apparently trying to use two sims worth of script time.

Hopefully this is an Estate region so it's easier to explore other options. If so, I'd start by chatting with the Estate owner to see if they have an easy way to keep you as a customer. (Perhaps counter-intuitively, it's probably best to put all the breedable farmers on the same sim. It doesn't matter how much the critters are lagged by other critters.)

If it's Mainland, it's a lot harder. You can try to file an Abuse Report, something about excessive use of region resources, but relief isn't likely to be swift if it comes at all.

[animats]

3 hours ago, Zeta Vandyke said:

I'm not scoring to high then.. https://gyazo.com/edf83cfb2baf7744f5a1b7d855fc6a08

No, that's pretty bad.

Why are breedables such compute hogs, anyway? They don't do much. Amaretto is a big operation. You'd think they'd have optimized their scripts by now. Amusingly, if you go to their large HQ ranch, they don't have any of their animals rezzed.

Maybe once animesh gets rolling (very soon) we'll see a new generation of breedables with better movement and more efficient programming. Those could obsolete the old breedables.

Edited July 21, 2018 by animats
Animesh.

[Fionalein]

1 minute ago, animats said:

No, that's pretty bad.

Why are breedables such compute hogs, anyway? They don't do much. Amaretto is a big operation. You'd think they'd have optimized their scripts by now. Amusingly, if you go to their large HQ ranch, they don't have any of their animals rezzed.

Maybe we will see a huge performance increase with animesh breedables - but old stuff will stay around anyways

[animats]

8 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

Maybe we will see a huge performance increase with animesh breedables - but old stuff will stay around anyways

If the new stuff is more interesting, maybe not. I'd like to see a herd of ponies that behaves like a herd of ponies - they mostly graze, but sometimes they run around or play with each other. If you walk into the pony pasture, some of the ponies should come over and check you out. They should get out of your way if you walk through the herd. With no humans nearby, they should do very little and use minimal resources; maybe an animated tail flip or ear flick or head bob once in a while.

[Qie Niangao]

14 minutes ago, animats said:

Maybe once animesh gets rolling (very soon) we'll see a new generation of breedables with better movement and more efficient programming. Those could obsolete the old breedables.

I wonder. What's the land impact of a breedable horse? (This is very knowable, but I'm very lazy.) I'm just thinking that if I were selling breedables, I'd want my customers to be able to buy as many as possible before encountering a parcel limit. The minimum LI per Animesh character is 15, IIRC, the same as the minimum for Pathfinding characters, but not sure if that's much different from current generation breedables.

[animats]

2 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

I wonder. What's the land impact of a breedable horse? (This is very knowable, but I'm very lazy.) I'm just thinking that if I were selling breedables, I'd want my customers to be able to buy as many as possible before encountering a parcel limit. The minimum LI per Animesh character is 15, IIRC, the same as the minimum for Pathfinding characters, but not sure if that's much different from current generation breedables.

LI is rendering, not scripting. You can have huge LI without scripting, and huge script load in a one-LI object.

[Lucia Nightfire]

1 hour ago, animats said:

Maybe once animesh gets rolling (very soon) we'll see a new generation of breedables with better movement and more efficient programming.

That will still depend on a scripter's abilities. I commonly see idle sex beds/chairs having 0.022 - 0.044ms of script time. Doesn't matter what the application is. Unskilled scripter's can still screw up anything.

[Qie Niangao]

4 hours ago, animats said:

LI is rendering, not scripting. You can have huge LI without scripting, and huge script load in a one-LI object.

LI certainly has little to do with script efficiency (although it is affected by script count), but that's not at all the point I was trying to make. Rather, I meant to question whether Animesh would ever be widely adopted for breedables because it may be too LI intensive specifically for that application.

Put another way, some new Animesh stuff may well be interesting and efficiently scripted, but those qualities have never determined the commercial success of breedables.

Edited July 22, 2018 by Qie Niangao

[Prokofy Neva]

12 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

That could be a problem, if the horses and the avatars are in the same region. That's because avatars come with many more scripts than they used to, and (some common) breedable horses are also extremely script-heavy, so they're likely to compete for the exact same resource: script time.

Now, of all the kinds of lag, script-on-script lag is relatively tolerable, at least compared to sim-crashing varieties. Folks will notice, however, that scripts run much slower. A common example is opening the HUD for a mesh avatar to adjust an alpha cut (say) and finding that the HUD takes five minutes to open and another few minutes to push a change to the avatar. It's not a showstopper, but it's very, very evident.

I'd suggest opening the Statistics window (Control-Shift-1) and looking at the Simulator measurement "Scripts Run" -- that should be a solid 100%, certainly no less than 95%, before you start adding a bunch of avatars to the mix. Also check under Time for "Spare Time" -- you'll need a bunch of that (the more the better) to run dozens of avatars' attachments.

I have found that even 50 breedables on a Mainland sim with less than 10 avatars regularly on it does not cause lag and does not affect the statistics.

The problem is you don't know that the scripts come from the horses only. Maybe 80 is causing lag where 40 or 50 didn't, but what else is on that sim? You can't see. Only the Lindens can see.

So the spare time hit may be caused not by the horses. Numbers of scripts are also a factor, I think once it gets up above 3000-4000 it can become a problem. But if the "lag meter" and the control-shift-1 aren't showing poor numbers, then the lag is on the user's side with things like packet loss or graphic card setting. And even if bad numbers do show, you can't be 100% sure it's the horses. As noted, it could be an unskilled scripted item or just a bed with 600 positions or something like that.

 

BUT now that I have studied your screenshot, I don't think those numbers are the bad things claimed here.

Time Dilation of .996 is ok -- the norm is 99.
Sim FPS of 44.8 is a little less than optimal which is 45.
Script time at 22.275 is not the horror implied here. I'm on a sim now with no lag, 7000 scripts, and it's time is exactly that.

Active scripts is 11601. That's pretty outrageous. But find out how many scripts actually are the horses. And it's not THAT there is a script, but if they eat up script time.

Edited July 22, 2018 by Prokofy Neva

[Syo Emerald]

I would not count on any new technology to improve the breedable situation. If living and exploring mainland has taught me one thing, then its that many people seem to be unable to get rid of garbage. I see people renting 4x the amount of land I have (or more), which means they spent a significant amount of extra money each month...and what do they do with it? They place some hideous building with textures from 2004 and the construction skills of newbie builder and then either fill it up with breedables or with items from 2004-2009 that they, for some reason, try to sell.

Those will not be the type of people adapting new technology.

[Love Zhaoying]

4 hours ago, Syo Emerald said:

I would not count on any new technology to improve the breedable situation.

Won’t animesh enable more efficient breedables?

[Skell Dagger]

Personal experience here. My home (Mainland) region had one parcel that was bought by someone who rezzed out just 36 breedable horses. All were constantly animated and not set to hibernate. Within a day of her rezzing them out, the entire region was like soup. You couldn't move more than 10m without rubber-banding back and forth. Occasionally, a horse would zoom off her lot, shoot past our windows (or even right through our house, admittedly causing much hilarity), and disappear off-region, only to reappear on her lot seconds later. There was nothing else on the lot except a few background trees and some pens for the horses, plus a couple of fish and one animated waterfall, but those horses were constantly on the go. I still have a screenshot of the place:

I checked the script use and it was horrendous. I immediately put in an 'excessive script use' AR against one of the horses, including the Stats floater in the attached screenshot. Within a day or two the horses were gone and the region came back to normal. But... they came back again. It took three or four ARs before she finally packed up and took her laggy gee-gees elsewhere.

This was during a time when I was inworld a LOT. And the owner of that lot only ever showed up for about five minutes at a time, to feed her horses. Note that there is no house or home rezzed out. She didn't live in the sky, either. Nor did she ever recline on the sunbeds she'd placed by the waterfall. She couldn't live in the same location as those lagfests, but she didn't mind inflicting them on others.

Granted, this was years ago (2011) and both region and horse-scripting optimisation will have improved since then. But yeah, those things will bring you to a standstill. Add in 40 avatars to the mix and nobody ..... will ..... be ..... able ..... to ..... move.

Edited July 22, 2018 by Skell Dagger

[Syo Emerald]

35 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Won’t animesh enable more efficient breedables?

Yes, in theory, if people adapt that new technology and care about their neighbours.

[Phil Deakins]

15 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

If it's Mainland, it's a lot harder.

It can't be mainland because the OP is expecting 40 to 60 avatars at her place.

 

@Zeta Vandyke

Prokofy is right about the statistics, in that the numbers aren't bad at all. But that's without your expected 40 to 60 avatars showing up. Without them, the numbers (time dilation and such) are slightly below where they should be, but only slightly. And they do fluctuate, so another capture might not show them slightly down. But they are pretty much on the limit without your 40-60 avatars, and I'd expect problems when your avatars come in. In your situation, I'd be thinking along the lines of moving to a sim where the numbers aren't already on the limit. I don't think I'd want to put a load more work into it, in the hope that it'll be ok. I'd rather have confidence about it.

[Fionalein]

17 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

It can't be mainland because the OP is expecting 40 to 60 avatars at her place.

you can - build your club on the sim border on two joining parcels...

[Phil Deakins]

13 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

you can - build your club on the sim border on two joining parcels...

But the OP hasn't done that, or she wouldn't have said...

21 hours ago, Zeta Vandyke said:

the neighboring 1/2 sim has tons of breedable horses

It seems to be pretty clear that she means the other half sim in the sim she's in.

[Zeta Vandyke]

Thanks for the help all

So far lag still near non existent, with 10 avies moving around doing stuff. I'm a bit hesitant to move, just spend 4 full days building here. But will also be disappointing if I have to move after opening up.

If I compare with my current sim location, with 50 script heavy avies on it, the lag is very noticeable when on ground floor where all the avies are, but on sky platform the lag is gone. Seeing how all the breeding horses are way up in the sky, they might not effect me noticeably?

[Phil Deakins]

Scripts aren't location-specific. They run, and use time, wherever they are in the sim. It's viewable stuff that's location-specific - whether or not they are in range of your view setting. That's why you notice the change in your current place when you go up high.

I hope it works for you in the new place. If it were me, I wouldn't be particularly confident, but that's just me