Does LL want to fix SL

[femhalf]

As i've said before, all they need is an applier system for their current mesh avatars (retrofitted), or for newly designed ones.  It would solve many problems overnight.  Their current mesh avatars are useless because you can't change the skin or customize the face.  They were so badly designed that the newest released avatars went back to the standard system avatars (recently released with bento accessories).

[Penny Patton]

41 minutes ago, Chase01 said:

Designers are going to follow the money, and while a free body has the potential to reach a larger audience; if it isn't comparable in terms of features and quality, people will still gravitate to the aftermarket and with that, the cycle continues. It becomes yet another body to support, or not support.

Yeah, if LL squatted out a lackluster new system avatar that nobody liked then yeah, the situation would more or less stay the same as it is now.

However, assuming LL didn't screw it up (I know, I know, but this is all hypothetical anyway) most people would end up using the standard body as long as it was at least comparable in quality to available mesh bodies. There would be a transition period that would probably last a few years where, yes, it would be "yet another body" but over time it would become THE body and you'd see the bulk of mesh clothing support going towards it, mitigating the problem of the fractured clothing market.

9 minutes ago, femhalf said:

As i've said before, all they need is an applier system for their current mesh avatars (retrofitted), or for newly designed ones.  It would solve many problems overnight.  Their current mesh avatars are useless because you can't change the skin or customize the face.  They were so badly designed that the newest released avatars went back to the standard system avatars (recently released with bento accessories).

Most people are unaware of this, but the applier system mesh bodies use is actually really bad for SL. Every single layer is a whole extra avatar mesh, It's a huge performance drain because while those clothing layers might be invisible to you, your videocard still has to exert just as much effort to render invisible mesh as it does visible mesh. The textures on those layers are still sucking up videocard memory. Even worse when most of the popular mesh bodies and heads are all no-mod so even if you realize the problem you can't do anything about it.

There is no point in LL simply releasing a pair of mesh bodies like that. Their best option is to do an improved system avatar.

[Alwin Alcott]

17 minutes ago, Penny Patton said:

Their best option is to do an improved system avatar.

 

17 minutes ago, Penny Patton said:

Most people are unaware of this, but the applier system mesh bodies use is actually really bad for SL. Every single layer is a whole extra avatar mesh, It's a huge performance drain because while those clothing layers might be invisible to you, your videocard still has to exert just as much effort to render invisible mesh as it does visible mesh. The textures on those layers are still sucking up videocard memory. Even worse when most of the popular mesh bodies and heads are all no-mod so even if you realize the problem you can't do anything about it.

perhaps you can explain a mesh nitwit as me, how a improved system avatar ( whats also a mesh) can be better when it also needs the seperate layers for applier clothing, tattoos, make up, hairbases... and so on?

Perhaps i'm thinking to complicated, but the "improved" system body would have the same problem i think?

[Chase01]

45 minutes ago, Penny Patton said:

Yeah, if LL squatted out a lackluster new system avatar that nobody liked then yeah, the situation would more or less stay the same as it is now.

However, assuming LL didn't screw it up (I know, I know, but this is all hypothetical anyway) most people would end up using the standard body as long as it was at least comparable in quality to available mesh bodies. There would be a transition period that would probably last a few years where, yes, it would be "yet another body" but over time it would become THE body and you'd see the bulk of mesh clothing support going towards it, mitigating the problem of the fractured clothing market.

 

This is of course all wishful thinking . As of today, I would say that I don't have a lot of confidence in their ability to create something that would be on par, or better then what is currently on the market. So to say it would become THE BODY we all would want to use eventually is a pretty big leap from where I am standing. That's really a best case scenario of a lot of scenarios.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Chase01

[Phil Deakins]

12 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

And again, when has LL EVER done that much work and given it away for free? 

 

9 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

When they created the whole of Second Life, maybe?

 

8 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

And yet, they didn't give that away for free either.. You had to buy a membership at the very start. So.. Wrong again, Phil.

And then they gave it away for free, and still do. Nevertheless, LL has put a lot of work into improving many major aspects of SL, sculpties, for instance, mesh, for instance, and added it for free. Putting work into a mesh body wouldn't be any different. It would just be another significant improvement that would be added without any additional cost to any user - free.

[Phil Deakins]

12 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

What i said was, "They would have to create their own look, or be sued for copyright infringement if it is too close to one already made." LL would have to make one that is theirs and theirs alone. 

And your point is? Actually, what you did say ("They would have to create their own look, or be sued for copyright infringement") was irrelevant. It sounded like you were saying that it can't really be done. Of course they'd have to create something that looked different - a little different - not much different. Anyone creating anything has to do that.

[Phil Deakins]

2 hours ago, Chase01 said:

Appliers only work for applier based clothing, not mesh clothing. Since each mesh body has a unique skeletal structure, the clothing must be rigged for each brand and or model. Without that, fitment suffers. The skeletal structure is the reason why shapes look differently on each brand of mesh body. The rigging is supposed to ensure its fitment.

Like I said, I don't know all the technicalities of clothing and mesh bodies. I don't even understand what you wrote there. Why does each mesh body have a unique skeletal structure?, for instance. Do creators effectively design their own skeletons? or are the lengths of the system bones fixed according to each creator's ideas?

[Phil Deakins]

12 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

None of those bodies is scripted, no alpha cuts, no appliers. 

Scripted? Mesh bodies are scripted?

[Phil Deakins]

Personal opinion.

It's a  pity that some creators decided to use mesh to create bodies and heads. I don't believe that LL envisaged that happening when they introduced mesh. The way it's worked out is ridiculous, so that many or most of us don't, or barely, understand it. It used to be so simple, even with mesh clothes. Also, system heads were made to be way better looking than mesh ones (I'm talking about faces), and could be greatly personalised, so mesh heads are a step down from system heads. Mesh bodies are better than the old system ones, but not so much better that it outweighs the current mess. The whole thing has become a huge mess.

There used to be some some really good looking female faces before mesh heads came along, but I don't see any up to that level of beauty now. Yes, it's subjective, of course, and it's just my opinion.

However it's done, I do hope that things will eventually return to the previous simplicity, where you see it, you like it, you buy it, instead of having to research whether or not you can actually use it.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Phil Deakins

[Drake1 Nightfire]

1 hour ago, Phil Deakins said:

 

 

And then they gave it away for free, and still do. Nevertheless, LL has put a lot of work into improving many major aspects of SL, sculpties, for instance, mesh, for instance, and added it for free. Putting work into a mesh body wouldn't be any different. It would just be another significant improvement that would be added without any additional cost to any user - free.

Wrong again, Phil... TPVs did most of the work there.. Just like they do with 99% of the "improvements" you used to see. Then LL got pissy and forced them to only be able to have new things when LL did the work.. And did you happen to notice how much improvements slowed down? We were getting new features left and right before, now.. Once, maybe twice a year. 

 

1 hour ago, Phil Deakins said:

Scripted? Mesh bodies are scripted?

Yes, Phil. Mesh bodies are scripted.. How do you think the HUDs and appliers work with them? If you really have no idea how something works, you shouldn't be giving a half-arsed opinion as fact. 

1 hour ago, Phil Deakins said:

Personal opinion.

It's a  pity that some creators decided to use mesh to create bodies and heads. I don't believe that LL envisaged that happening when they introduced mesh. The way it's worked out is ridiculous, so that many or most of us don't, or barely, understand it. It used to be so simple, even with mesh clothes. Also, system heads were made to be way better looking than mesh ones (I'm talking about faces), and could be greatly personalised, so mesh heads are a step down from system heads. Mesh bodies are better than the old system ones, but not so much better that it outweighs the current mess. The whole thing has become a huge mess.

There used to be some some really good looking female faces before mesh heads came along, but I don't see any up to that level of beauty now. Yes, it's subjective, of course, and it's just my opinion.

However it's done, I do hope that things will eventually return to the previous simplicity, where you see it, you like it, you buy it, instead of having to research whether or not you can actually use it.

You really are a dinosaur set in your ways, aren't you? "most users don't understand how they work?" Seriously? I wander SL a LOT. The number of times i come across a system AV a week i can count on one hand. Either it's a stubborn oldbie like you, or a brand new user who is saving up for a mesh body. I will agree that mesh heads aren't my cup of tea, but there are many good uses for them. Anthros and furries for one. Mesh bodies are leaps and bounds better than a system av, in looks, shape, and design. Actual feet, boobs that don't go all square, and a butt that doesn't go pear shaped when sitting. 

There are still good looking female faces. I would bet that half the women you see don't have a mesh head, you are just projecting your hate for mesh on them. 

As to going back to simplicity.. Mesh clothing was never simple. You needed alpha layers and usually had to tweak you shape to fit anyway! Or do you mean system clothing? If so, as long as your mesh body can use Omega and the store offers it in Omega, which i can't understand new system clothing NOT being made with an Omega applier, then it's just as simple as before.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

4 hours ago, Penny Patton said:

Yeah, if LL squatted out a lackluster new system avatar that nobody liked then yeah, the situation would more or less stay the same as it is now.

Given LL track record, fairly likely they would bork it up.

However, assuming LL didn't screw it up (I know, I know, but this is all hypothetical anyway) most people would end up using the standard body as long as it was at least comparable in quality to available mesh bodies. There would be a transition period that would probably last a few years where, yes, it would be "yet another body" but over time it would become THE body and you'd see the bulk of mesh clothing support going towards it, mitigating the problem of the fractured clothing market.

So, would you discard your mesh body for one made by LL? Also, wouldn't that just be ANOTHER body to have to rigg mesh clothing for? I don't see people ditching their current mesh bodies for a free one by LL unless it was leaps and bounds better. Again though, when has LL ever made something that was that good? 

Most people are unaware of this, but the applier system mesh bodies use is actually really bad for SL. Every single layer is a whole extra avatar mesh, It's a huge performance drain because while those clothing layers might be invisible to you, your videocard still has to exert just as much effort to render invisible mesh as it does visible mesh. The textures on those layers are still sucking up videocard memory. Even worse when most of the popular mesh bodies and heads are all no-mod so even if you realize the problem you can't do anything about it.

There is no point in LL simply releasing a pair of mesh bodies like that. Their best option is to do an improved system avatar.

 

[Phil Deakins]

34 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Wrong again, Phil... TPVs did most of the work there.. Just like they do with 99% of the "improvements" you used to see. Then LL got pissy and forced them to only be able to have new things when LL did the work.. And did you happen to notice how much improvements slowed down? We were getting new features left and right before, now.. Once, maybe twice a year. 

Rubbish! I do know that TPVs made improvements to the viewers that LL took on in theirs, but I didn't mention viewers. I did mention sculpties and mesh as 2 examples though. In other words, you are wrong - again.

Yes, Phil. Mesh bodies are scripted.. How do you think the HUDs and appliers work with them? If you really have no idea how something works, you shouldn't be giving a half-arsed opinion as fact. 

Ah. I already said I know very little about them. But my opinions are a very long way from being half-arsed. In fact, you can't find even one opinion of mine in this thread that is wrong.

You really are a dinosaur set in your ways, aren't you? "most users don't understand how they work?" Seriously? I wander SL a LOT. The number of times i come across a system AV a week i can count on one hand. Either it's a stubborn oldbie like you, or a brand new user who is saving up for a mesh body. I will agree that mesh heads aren't my cup of tea, but there are many good uses for them. Anthros and furries for one. Mesh bodies are leaps and bounds better than a system av, in looks, shape, and design. Actual feet, boobs that don't go all square, and a butt that doesn't go pear shaped when sitting. 

You're not very good at this forum business, are you? lol. The number of people who use mesh avatars has no bearing at all on the number of people who understand the technicalities of them. It's no good sidetracking, because you can't make any points that way   Incidentally, I use a mesh body.

There are still good looking female faces. I would bet that half the women you see don't have a mesh head, you are just projecting your hate for mesh on them. 

Again you are wrong. I'm looking forward to seeing you write something you are right about. I don't hate mesh. Whatever gave you that idea? In fact I fully support the idea put forward in this thread - that LL produces a good one as the default body.

I didn't say that there weren't good looking female mesh heads. I said that there aren't any as beautiful as there used to be with system heads. Try to follow the conversation please.

As to going back to simplicity.. Mesh clothing was never simple. You needed alpha layers and usually had to tweak you shape to fit anyway! Or do you mean system clothing? If so, as long as your mesh body can use Omega and the store offers it in Omega, which i can't understand new system clothing NOT being made with an Omega applier, then it's just as simple as before.

Well done! Something right. Well almost. No, mesh clothing was never as simple as system clothing, but it was a whole lot simpler on system bodies than it is on creator-mesh bodies.

 

Edited November 27, 2017 by Phil Deakins

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 hour ago, Phil Deakins said:

Personal opinion.

It's a  pity that some creators decided to use mesh to create bodies and heads. I don't believe that LL envisaged that happening when they introduced mesh. The way it's worked out is ridiculous, so that many or most of us don't, or barely, understand it. It used to be so simple, even with mesh clothes. Also, system heads were made to be way better looking than mesh ones (I'm talking about faces), and could be greatly personalised, so mesh heads are a step down from system heads. Mesh bodies are better than the old system ones, but not so much better that it outweighs the current mess. The whole thing has become a huge mess.

There used to be some some really good looking female faces before mesh heads came along, but I don't see any up to that level of beauty now. Yes, it's subjective, of course, and it's just my opinion.

However it's done, I do hope that things will eventually return to the previous simplicity, where you see it, you like it, you buy it, instead of having to research whether or not you can actually use it.

I think mesh bodies look way better than the system bodies, so much more smother and they only break in the most extreme poses.

I literally cringe when i see a system body with the sliders set to 100. That looks good because?

But yes mesh heads are a disaster. The most beautiful looking avatars almost always have system heads. Mesh heads have that certain "look" that gives them away every time.

But some people are more comfortable looking like everyone else, plus the herd likes to have the latest and greatest.

 

[Penny Patton]

46 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

So, would you discard your mesh body for one made by LL? Also, wouldn't that just be ANOTHER body to have to rigg mesh clothing for? I don't see people ditching their current mesh bodies for a free one by LL unless it was leaps and bounds better. Again though, when has LL ever made something that was that good? 

You're assuming that 100% of the current userbase has a mesh body already. SA large percentage of SL users have a mesh body, yes, but I'm not even sure it's the majority of SL users, and I know for a fact that it's not all of them.

You're also assuming that 100% of all new users from today until LL finally turns off the lights have already decided they are going to buy a mesh body when they join SL. I find that difficult to believe.

But to answer your question, would I personally drop my mesh body for a new system body? That entirely depends on whether or not the new system body suits my needs better than my mesh body. If I were able to achieve a shape similar to what I have now? Almost definitely.  The improved third party clothing support and reduced draw weight would both be huge draws for me.

 As for whether or not LL would make something good, or screw it up? You're making me repeat myself. WI already said that whether or not LL would do a decent job is another issue altogether. I'm only talking about what LL should do, not what they will do. Currently they have no plans at all for improved system avatars.

52 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

I didn't say that there weren't good looking female mesh heads. I said that there aren't any as beautiful as there used to be with system heads.

 

51 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

But yes mesh heads are a disaster. The most beautiful looking avatars almost always have system heads. Mesh heads have that certain "look" that gives them away every time.

I dislike a lot of mesh heads because, yeah, they have a very obvious look to them. I thought this would change with Bento, but most of the Bento heads I've seen have retained a very "samey" look to them. The exception I've found to this is Utilizator's "Normie" head. I'm able to use that head and still look like my pre-mesh head self, just now with materials support and a wider variety of better looking expression options.

[Louise Fyrewik]

1 hour ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

But yes mesh heads are a disaster. The most beautiful looking avatars almost always have system heads. Mesh heads have that certain "look" that gives them away every time.

But some people are more comfortable looking like everyone else, plus the herd likes to have the latest and greatest.

 

39 minutes ago, Penny Patton said:

I dislike a lot of mesh heads because, yeah, they have a very obvious look to them. I thought this would change with Bento, but most of the Bento heads I've seen have retained a very "samey" look to them. The exception I've found to this is Utilizator's "Normie" head. I'm able to use that head and still look like my pre-mesh head self, just now with materials support and a wider variety of better looking expression options.

I disagree with that. I greatly prefer the bento heads over system heads. With the first generation of mesh heads I do agree, you saw a lot of people with the same heads, and among the users of those heads you still do. I can recognise a LOGO Sadie from a mile away.

But with the new generation Bento heads, there can be a lot of difference, even between users of the exact same head. There is one head vastly more popular than all others, and that is the Catwa Catya head. But you will see a lot of people using that head and still look different. With Bento rigging, mesh heads are just as customisable as system heads are.

[Coby Foden]

5 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

Scripted? Mesh bodies are scripted?

Yes, the mesh bodies indeed are scripted. The HUD supplied with mesh bodies needs a way to communicate with the mesh body. The HUD is used for example to hide certain parts of the body, for changing the skin, changing applier clothes, to control bento hands, etc. The same is true with mesh heads. Lots of of active scripts. If you delete the scripts from the body or the head then the HUD cannot communicate with the body or head any more.

[Phil Deakins]

Ty, Coby

It had never occured to me. Even when Drake mentioned it, that reason for scripts didn't occur to me.

[Coby Foden]

7 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

. . . how a improved system avatar ( whats also a mesh) can be better when it also needs the seperate layers for applier clothing, tattoos, make up, hairbases... and so on?

Perhaps i'm thinking to complicated, but the "improved" system body would have the same problem i think?

The present system avatar is also mesh. It is single mesh, not the onion structure the imported mesh bodies are. The system body has a system what is called layers. These layers are not physical layers on the body, they just define what textures go on top of each other. We put our clothing, tattoos, etc. on the layers. Then the baking system bakes the all the different textures into one single texture.

The new improved system body would work exactly the same way in layering as the present system body.
Thus it would not have the same problem as the imported mesh bodies have with their onion layering system and multiple scripts.

[Blush Bravin]

13 minutes ago, Coby Foden said:

The present system avatar is also mesh. It is single mesh, not the onion structure the imported mesh bodies are. The system body has a system what is called layers. These layers are not physical layers on the body, they just define what textures go on top of each other. We put our clothing, tattoos, etc. on the layers. Then the baking system bakes the all the different textures into one single texture.

The new improved system body would work exactly the same way in layering as the present system body.
Thus it would not have the same problem as the imported mesh bodies have with their onion layering system and multiple scripts.

When LL completes the baked textures for mesh project, the onion layers of the current mesh bodies will no longer be necessary. The new system will bake the layers and apply to the mesh bodies much the same as it does for system bodies now. This is the best answer to the question of whether LL should make a new system body. That question was put to rest with the implementation of fitted mesh.

[Coby Foden]

2 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

When LL completes the baked textures for mesh project, the onion layers of the current mesh bodies will no longer be necessary. The new system will bake the layers and apply to the mesh bodies much the same as it does for system bodies now. This is the best answer to the question of whether LL should make a new system body. That question was put to rest with the implementation of fitted mesh.

Baking system for the mesh bodies does not solve the problem of complicated system of incompatible mesh bodies and mesh heads and fractured clothing market. Designers still need to create their clothing for multiple mesh bodies and new users are as confused as they are now. So it is not the best answer at all.

What that baking system for mesh bodies will do is only that it will reduce lag caused now by onion mesh bodies. That's all it does, nothing more. Only really effective, user friendly, designer friendly, way would be new system avatar body.

[Blush Bravin]

I am happy with my mesh body and all the clothing I have collected for it thus far. If I want a new system body from Linden Lab for which I will have to collect new clothing all over again, I will go to Sansar. In fact, I'm quite excited to do just that. I have no desire to turn the current body/clothing market in SL upside down with an ill advised creation of a new system body. The time to do that would have been years ago when rigged mesh was first introduced to the grid. We've gone way too far past that to even consider it now.

[Pamela Galli]

13 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

I am happy with my mesh body and all the clothing I have collected for it thus far. If I want a new system body from Linden Lab for which I will have to collect new clothing all over again, I will go to Sansar. In fact, I'm quite excited to do just that. I have no desire to turn the current body/clothing market in SL upside down with an ill advised creation of a new system body. The time to do that would have been years ago when rigged mesh was first introduced to the grid. We've gone way too far past that to even consider it now.

If you are happy with your current mesh body, why would others using a LL default mesh body send you to Sansar? Why do you care what others want, as long as you have what you want? This POV seems a case of just wanting to restrict others choices, for no reason I can see.

[NevaehHeartstrings]

4 hours ago, Penny Patton said:

I dislike a lot of mesh heads because, yeah, they have a very obvious look to them. I thought this would change with Bento, but most of the Bento heads I've seen have retained a very "samey" look to them. The exception I've found to this is Utilizator's "Normie" head. I'm able to use that head and still look like my pre-mesh head self, just now with materials support and a wider variety of better looking expression options.

Is it possible we could crowd source a set of bodies as a universal body? then donate them to linden lab to add server side so everyone has access to it? then offer kits for it under a creative commons type license,  have a Github with an Inworld support group maybe with a linden as founder to be the official group for support?

The body could get worked on by volunteers/paid developers alike until perfected, going thru alpha and beta stages before working with linden lab to accept it, doing the server side work, allowing time for TPV to prepare for it, maybe they could come up with viewer enhancements for it..

I have seen many other less deserving projects/residents get huge amounts of real dollar donations for all sorts of things of a less impact for world as a whole, since I am not a creator it could be me missing details, being less informed, so maybe your thoughts on this idea penny?

 

 

[NevaehHeartstrings]

4 hours ago, Penny Patton said:

 The exception I've found to this is Utilizator's "Normie" head. I'm able to use that head and still look like my pre-mesh head self, just now with materials support and a wider variety of better looking expression options.

I did buy it, figuring out now how to work it, so far very happy ..your review was helpful as well, better then my L$4500 clone looking head

[Chase01]

8 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

Like I said, I don't know all the technicalities of clothing and mesh bodies. I don't even understand what you wrote there. Why does each mesh body have a unique skeletal structure?, for instance. Do creators effectively design their own skeletons? or are the lengths of the system bones fixed according to each creator's ideas?

Because the designers had nothing to go off of. To keep it simple, its like asking you to build a car without a blueprint. You have to make some guesses. With that also comes both the good and bad. The downside is having to rig clothing for a specific brand and model. The upside is that the shape of that body is unique (more variety).