Does LL want to fix SL

[Phil Deakins]

Aha. Thank you, Chase.

It raises another question. LL recently released Bento. Is that a skeleton and, if it is, would it tend to move things towards the same skeleton all round?

[Chase01]

No Phil, Bento is the name of the technology. That tech essentially allows for more points of animation. I dug up an old video released by LL that will give you a brief overview of it.

Second Life - Project Bento Update

[Blush Bravin]

1 hour ago, Pamela Galli said:

If you are happy with your current mesh body, why would others using a LL default mesh body send you to Sansar? Why do you care what others want, as long as you have what you want? This POV seems a case of just wanting to restrict others choices, for no reason I can see.

I think you misread my post. I don't care if others want to use the current system body or use one of the many mesh bodies available. I just think the notion that Linden Lab would at this point make a new system body is futile. I am however excited about the new avatars and the cloth physics for clothing that Sansar will have available very soon. I enjoy both Second Life and Sansar. I'm more excited about collecting a new wardrobe for my Sansar avatar rather than starting over in SL with a new system body that would require my purchasing a whole new wardrobe.

[Pamela Galli]

1 hour ago, Blush Bravin said:

I'm more excited about collecting a new wardrobe for my Sansar avatar rather than starting over in SL with a new system body that would require my purchasing a whole new wardrobe.

There would be no requirement to start over, or to make any change at all. As long as owners of your mesh avi demand clothing for it, clothes makers will fill that demand. For example, mesh objects did not immediately render non mesh obsolete. I still sell a lot of pre-mesh content. 

Disclaimer: The only part of my avatar that is mesh are the feet -- I have never cared enough about how my avi looks to learn how to create one out of mesh parts. I just know that the current complicated, fractured avatar and mesh clothing market is inconvenient, and for new accounts, an almost insurmountable obstacle.

[Blush Bravin]

33 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

Disclaimer: The only part of my avatar that is mesh are the feet -- I have never cared enough about how my avi looks to learn how to create one out of mesh parts. I just know that the current complicated, fractured avatar and mesh clothing market is inconvenient, and for new accounts, an almost insurmountable obstacle.

Ahh .. My avatar is mesh from head to toe. I enjoy making mesh content for the Maitreya and Slink bodies. I agree that the system body, from head to toe, is horrid as it is today.

I can understand the desire to have Linden Lab fix the current system body. I just think it's not going to happen. It certainly wouldn't fix the problem with creators having to make so many sizes as it would only add another size to their already long list of sizes.

I know I wouldn't give up my Maitreya body for a new system body even if it was done really well. Learning how to navigate through the maze of mesh body products isn't as difficult as one might think. There are many groups out there that are more than happy to help those just jumping into mesh. 

[Pamela Galli]

26 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

I know I wouldn't give up my Maitreya body for a new system body even if it was done really well. Learning how to navigate through the maze of mesh body products isn't as difficult as one might think

 My point is that new Second Life residents should have easy access to an attractive mesh and bento avatar, right off the bat, not have to take lessons how to construct one and spend a considerable amount of money for the privilege. 

You said this would make you move to Sansar, but I don’t know why. 

[Qie Niangao]

14 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

 My point is that new Second Life residents should have easy access to an attractive mesh and bento avatar, right off the bat, not have to take lessons how to construct one and spend a considerable amount of money for the privilege. 

You said this would make you move to Sansar, but I don’t know why. 

But that's not exactly what she said:

4 hours ago, Blush Bravin said:

I am happy with my mesh body and all the clothing I have collected for it thus far. If I want a new system body from Linden Lab for which I will have to collect new clothing all over again, I will go to Sansar. In fact, I'm quite excited to do just that. I have no desire to turn the current body/clothing market in SL upside down with an ill advised creation of a new system body. The time to do that would have been years ago when rigged mesh was first introduced to the grid. We've gone way too far past that to even consider it now.

I think Blush is a bit optimistic about the avatar prospects in Sansar, but I don't see her saying that any change in SL will drive her to Sansar. Rather, I read her to say that Sansar will come with a high-falutin' new avatar from the Lab, and that's where she'll expect to get one, not in SL.

At the same time, it wouldn't hurt anything if LL delivered a usable advanced Mesh avatar to SL -- preferably something full-perm to encourage user creativity again, like all the original LL content. But really, the ideal time for that was years ago, when a reference implementation would have prevented some of the least meaningful differences among commercial products that end up being purely annoyances, not true differentiating features.

[Blush Bravin]

I have avatars in both Sansar and Second Life and create for both. I am very optimistic in regards to the fashion release coming to Sansar at the end of December. So yes, this is where I expect to get a first rate avatar from Linden Lab.  I'm also excited for the implementation of cloth physics and the ability to wear a mesh skirt that will flow around my legs. Finally, I can have a pencil skirt without the necessity of using alphas.

 

And yes, Qie was dead on, this is what I meant.

14 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

But that's not exactly what she said:

I think Blush is a bit optimistic about the avatar prospects in Sansar, but I don't see her saying that any change in SL will drive her to Sansar. Rather, I read her to say that Sansar will come with a high-falutin' new avatar from the Lab, and that's where she'll expect to get one, not in SL.

 

 

[Pamela Galli]

7 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

I think Blush is a bit optimistic about the avatar prospects in Sansar, but I don't see her saying that any change in SL will drive her to Sansar. Rather, I read her to say that Sansar will come with a high-falutin' new avatar from the Lab, and that's where she'll expect to get one, not in SL.

I don't see what getting an avi from Sansar has to do with providing a quality avatar to, for example, new SL residents. 

[Chase01]

@Blush Bravin I agree. There are are support groups, forums (including this one), videos and written tutorials online. Some of the unboxing videos are under 15 minutes and give a complete walkthrough of how to set up the body, and use the HUD. Outside of that,  buy anything that is labeled specific for the body you purchased. No research required, just read the notation on the ad or poster. Once you have the basics down, moving between the more popular mesh bodies is relatively simple. People using the legacy avatar also needed some instruction. It wasn't as if it was fairly self explanatory either.

[Bitsy Buccaneer]

12 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

At the same time, it wouldn't hurt anything if LL delivered a usable advanced Mesh avatar to SL -- preferably something full-perm to encourage user creativity again, like all the original LL content. But really, the ideal time for that was years ago, when a reference implementation would have prevented some of the least meaningful differences among commercial products that end up being purely annoyances, not true differentiating features.

Quoted for the first bit in bold because I think it's very apt and important. I would love love love some improvement in that to help balance all the shifts away from personally created content.

The second bolded bit touches on a point which keeps coming up. Yes, the ideal time was years ago. That LL can't go back and change it doesn't mean they have to stay stuck forever.

[Qie Niangao]

4 hours ago, Pamela Galli said:

I don't see what getting an avi from Sansar has to do with providing a quality avatar to, for example, new SL residents. 

Oh, for sure. In the context of this thread, I think you took Blush's remarks as a more direct linkage between the two avatars, and I took it as more a passing observation. But it's an interesting point: why has LL gotten so shy about distributing new content in SL, yet they're comfortable releasing complete avatars for Sansar? Probably they appreciate the business advantage of high quality Sansar avatars, differentiating that platform from competitors with crappier avatars. If they did the same in SL, they'd take heat for "GOMing" the mesh avatar market by competing with creators.

But LL is suddenly very reluctant to distribute content in SL as a general practice. I mean, they used to distribute full-perm content every time they introduced it, as when the Heterocera Atoll textures all got added to the Library, and content boxes were provided for Bay City, Nautilus, Zindra, and Linden Homes. Now, there's nothing (AFAIK anyway) for the Horizons continent, and even Premium gifts and newbie avatar attachments are often locked-down no-mod. Granted, Mesh offers less opportunity for casual customization (more's the pity), but they don't even leave the scripts full-perm anymore.

Back to the mesh avatar thing: I've recently fitted-out a couple alts with mesh bodies and heads (even though I expect all this stuff to be obsolete once Bakes-on-Mesh is implemented), and it is really expensive. I certainly don't resent any money the avatar merchants are raking in from this and so I never really took that cost aspect seriously before, but now I appreciate that it turns up the contrast between the SL "haves" and "have-nots". Of course, the whole metaverse economy is based on folks being willing to pay more real money to have something better in their virtual world, it's just that this difference is both very stark and very pricey.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

11 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Back to the mesh avatar thing: I've recently fitted-out a couple alts with mesh bodies and heads (even though I expect all this stuff to be obsolete once Bakes-on-Mesh is implemented), and it is really expensive. I certainly don't resent any money the avatar merchants are raking in from this and so I never really took that cost aspect seriously before, but now I appreciate that it turns up the contrast between the SL "haves" and "have-nots". Of course, the whole metaverse economy is based on folks being willing to pay more real money to have something better in their virtual world, it's just that this difference is both very stark and very pricey.

It really all depends on your definition of "haves." A mesh head, IMO, isn't worth it. Not unless you really think you need one. And depending on which mesh body you buy, they range from 4140 for a complete Slink package(which i think is crazy)
2750 for Maitreya
1700 for one of the Belleza lite avs, 2499 for a full av or 4499 for all three of their avs.
None of which come with a head. So, $17 USD for Slink, $11 USD for Maitreya, $7 USD for the Belleza lite, $10 USD for a Belleza full or $18 USD for the 3 pack. Honestly, the best deal for your money is the Belleza 3 pack. # full mesh avs for $18 USD? Sounds good to me. Oh right, these are all for the female bodies.. The males are 2999 for Bellezas Jake and the Slink is 2800 all told. Maitreya does not have a male body. Niramyth does have the Aesthetic body which comes with a head, but i didn't list it as it is NOT SLUV compatible and there are very very few skins for it. It is a great body and does have Bento Hands at $2799L. 

Now, does $7 USD break the bank for most users of SL? Probably not. Personally, I am on a fixed income and i put in 40 to 50 USD a month for my wife and i, but we don't dine out or go to the movies, so this is our entertainment. Is $50 USD a month unrealistic to pay for entertainment? Not really when it costs that just for 2 people to go to a movie and get popcorn and a drink. But that is only my opinion. 

[ChinRey]

1 minute ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

It really all depends on your definition of "haves." A mesh head, IMO, isn't worth it. Not unless you really think you need one.

Or if you actually like duckbill shaped lips

[BilliJo Aldrin]

Reading this thread it seems obvious that some people still think Sansar is SL MK II.

Seriously, Sansar can never be Second Life, its totally not set up that way.

Pretty individual experiences can not be a replacement or substitute for Second Life.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

3 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

Or if you actually like duckbill shaped lips

 

[Qie Niangao]

43 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

A mesh head, IMO, isn't worth it. Not unless you really think you need one. And depending on which mesh body you buy, they range from 4140 for a complete Slink package(which i think is crazy) ...

I guess it depends on one's threshold of "crazy" then. But yeah, I was talking about full head+body mesh, plus Omega compatibility package for avatars that don't have it built-in, plus a body skin to match the head or a head skin to match the body or both -- as I've eventually found necessary for each avatar I've outfitted.

Not to mention the "false starts" which have been way more expensive in my experience. My main bought a TMP -- a disgusting piece of throw-away garbage at a truly ridiculous price back when there was very limited choice for male avatars. Then one alt got a Signature Gianni, which is actually kinda okay (although the skin is awful, and it doesn't support user-customization of normal- and specularmaps), and made the mistake of buying a "matching" head (hoping to avoid the skin-matching game) but that head turned out to be really horrid after more than cursory demo-testing, so I ended up paying twice to mesh-head that avatar.

Now all this tinkering is okay as a hobby, I guess, for those of us with the financial means and the requisite OCD, but I don't think it's good for LL's Second Life product business because it's simply too expensive and too aggravating for normal people, for most any definition of "normal".

[Blush Bravin]

1 hour ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Reading this thread it seems obvious that some people still think Sansar is SL MK II.

Seriously, Sansar can never be Second Life, its totally not set up that way.

Pretty individual experiences can not be a replacement or substitute for Second Life.

Never meant to imply that Sansar is SL II! It most certainly is not. But that said, just because it isn't doesn't mean I can't fully embrace and enjoy what Sansar is. For a creator it is wonderful. It also allows me to create without having to pay anything up front for upload fees and land purchases. The texturing and lighting is so far superior to SL that SL seems flat in comparison. But that said, doesn't mean I'd jump ship and go to Sansar exclusively. Both worlds have things to offer that the other does not. I enjoy both equally.

7 hours ago, Pamela Galli said:

I don't see what getting an avi from Sansar has to do with providing a quality avatar to, for example, new SL residents. 

I'm sure new residents would love fully furnished homes on beautifully landscaped lands .. does that mean that LL owes that to them? No. There are beautifully made mesh avatars available for purchase. LL should not be competing with any of the merchants in SL .. that includes mesh body creators. Of course this is MY OPINION. The time for Linden Lab to have improved the system body was before the mesh body market began!

Edited November 28, 2017 by Blush Bravin

[Parhelion Palou]

2 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Oh, for sure. In the context of this thread, I think you took Blush's remarks as a more direct linkage between the two avatars, and I took it as more a passing observation. But it's an interesting point: why has LL gotten so shy about distributing new content in SL, yet they're comfortable releasing complete avatars for Sansar? Probably they appreciate the business advantage of high quality Sansar avatars, differentiating that platform from competitors with crappier avatars. If they did the same in SL, they'd take heat for "GOMing" the mesh avatar market by competing with creators.

LL released a complete avatar for SL many years ago. They've done the same for Sansar. Sansar is somewhere in the alpha-to-beta stage of development, so the avatar is still being developed. Features are added as they're ready.

It would be great if cloth physics could be added to SL, especially if it also worked for home & garden things.

[Penny Patton]

20 hours ago, Blush Bravin said:

When LL completes the baked textures for mesh project, the onion layers of the current mesh bodies will no longer be necessary. The new system will bake the layers and apply to the mesh bodies much the same as it does for system bodies now. This is the best answer to the question of whether LL should make a new system body. That question was put to rest with the implementation of fitted mesh.

This isn't true, unless people using mesh bodies intend to ditch materials altogether.

LL decided not to support materials with the baked textures project. This means your skin materials will be applied to your clothing, unless we continue to use a separate body layer for clothing. This also means that people will not be able to use materials for baked clothing. Granted, very few people do as it is, but it makes layer clothing look far, far better, taking away the ability to use materials with such clothes is a step backward.

Another issue LL ignored is that some avatar layers require blended alpha, some require masked alpha. Forcing everything from tattoos to clothing into a single texture layer is going to cause problems.

I foresee mesh avatars possibly using one or two fewer layers, possibly not changing at all as they discover these issues for themselves.

23 hours ago, lavalois said:

I disagree with that. I greatly prefer the bento heads over system heads. With the first generation of mesh heads I do agree, you saw a lot of people with the same heads, and among the users of those heads you still do. I can recognise a LOGO Sadie from a mile away.

But with the new generation Bento heads, there can be a lot of difference, even between users of the exact same head. There is one head vastly more popular than all others, and that is the Catwa Catya head. But you will see a lot of people using that head and still look different. With Bento rigging, mesh heads are just as customisable as system heads are.

I'm not saying mesh heads are definitively worse than system heads, and not all bento heads are the same with regards to how samey they end up looking. Some let you do more with the sliders than others to personalize them. I played with the Niramyth Aesthetic head, for example, and found you could not change the face very much at all.

I have not tried using any of the no-mod heads myself,

, some of them might be very good for customization. I'm just saying that I still see a lot of mesh heads that look very samey.

With regards to the Catwa head, I feel compelled to bring up how excessively resource intensive their bento heads are. If LL does indeed push to discourage unoptimized content Catwa may find themselves needing to put out an optimization update (which would be extremely simple for them to do) or people using the head may end of jelly dolls to anyone who values their framerates. Here's hoping it's the former.

19 hours ago, NevaehHeartstrings said:

Is it possible we could crowd source a set of bodies as a universal body?

It's certainly possible, and it may be better than nothing, but I'd much rather see LL put out a system body, for the reasons I've presented throughout the thread. 

Having a standard, full featured, mesh body everyone would start off with, would solve some problems. It would help reduce fracturing of the clothing market by providing a standard that was guaranteed to see a high amount of support. However, mesh bodies are still needlessly complicated for new users and needlessly resource intensive.

I wouldn't dismiss the idea out of hand, but I think there needs to be more discussion of the pros and cons of this approach.

20 hours ago, Blush Bravin said:

The time to do that would have been years ago when rigged mesh was first introduced to the grid. We've gone way too far past that to even consider it now.

Why? Is Second Life closing tomorrow?

Second Life has been around for 15 years now, it could very well be around another 15. Yet I see people making this same "it's too late now" argument over and over. You need to take the long view with SL. You have to think of the implications of action now not for how it will affect SL right now, but how it will impact over the next five years.

[Qie Niangao]

11 minutes ago, Penny Patton said:

Another issue LL ignored is that some avatar layers require blended alpha, some require masked alpha. Forcing everything from tattoos to clothing into a single texture layer is going to cause problems.

I, too, am disappointed by the lack of Materials support in the Bakes-on-Mesh project, but I hate to fuss about it because the whole thing has been so disappointingly slow-rolled (in favor of Animesh, which I consider a low-impact distraction -- but I hate NPCs and also not a big fan of virtual critters).

That said, I don't understand how blended / masked alpha is a problem for baking; rather, I should think baking would hugely reduce the cost of the blending effect, layered together with masked and no-alpha textures in the baking process. I'm no doubt misunderstanding something.

[Vivienne Schell]

11 minutes ago, Parhelion Palou said:

LL released a complete avatar for SL many years ago. They've done the same for Sansar.

Right. And I seriously can´t share anyone´s enthusiasm regarding the default Sansar avatar. It´s not what I´d call something ...umm...attractive. Looks more like "Girl/Boy next door", while the customisable features are extremely crippled, due to the oversimplification of the UI. In the end content creators will drop in and do the same thing as they did in SL, and another mess regarding borked general accessibility/usability/"laggabiliy" (what Penny rightly complains on) will emerge. Oh, this just in case this mostly dead Sansar thing will ever take off enough to meet at least a handful of people, ocasionally, to show off the amaziing work of sculptured arts. WIthout wearing goggles.

Apparently the "Avatar" is one of the most important assets in virtual environments, for what reason ever, and absolutely worth the discussion. But...in the end it´s only one out of many important assets. For dressing your avi up and down you do not need a virtual world. Or, let´s say, the very few who enjoy "avatar narcism" won´t be enough by the numbers to pay for a complete virtual world. Barbie is a too strong competitor there, and numerous android apps cover this market adequately.

 

 

[Blush Bravin]

29 minutes ago, Penny Patton said:

This isn't true, unless people using mesh bodies intend to ditch materials altogether.

LL decided not to support materials with the baked textures project. This means your skin materials will be applied to your clothing, unless we continue to use a separate body layer for clothing. This also means that people will not be able to use materials for baked clothing. Granted, very few people do as it is, but it makes layer clothing look far, far better, taking away the ability to use materials with such clothes is a step backward.

Another issue LL ignored is that some avatar layers require blended alpha, some require masked alpha. Forcing everything from tattoos to clothing into a single texture layer is going to cause problems.

I foresee mesh avatars possibly using one or two fewer layers, possibly not changing at all as they discover these issues for themselves.

 

I also foresee that the clothing layer will remain since it doesn't follow the body contour of the mesh as the tattoo layer and the underwear layers do. Alpha glitching is solved with baked textures so the need for masking shouldn't be an issue. You can see this for yourself now when using multiple tats and clothing layers on a system avatar. It doesn't cause issues.

 

8 minutes ago, Vivienne Schell said:

Right. And I seriously can´t share anyone´s enthusiasm regarding the default Sansar avatar. It´s not what I´d call something ...umm...attractive. Looks more like "Girl/Boy next door", while the customisable features are extremely crippled, due to the oversimplification of the UI. In the end content creators will drop in and do the same thing as they did in SL, and another mess regarding borked general accessibility/usability/"laggabiliy" (what Penny rightly complains on) will emerge. Oh, this just in case this mostly dead Sansar thing will ever take off enough to meet at least a handful of people, ocasionally, to show off the amaziing work of sculptured arts. WIthout wearing goggles.

Apparently the "Avatar" is one of the most important assets in virtual environments, for what reason ever, and absolutely worth the discussion. But...in the end it´s only one out of many important assets. For dressing your avi up and down you do not need a virtual world. Or, let´s say, the very few who enjoy "avatar narcism" won´t be enough by the numbers to pay for a complete virtual world. Barbie is a too strong competitor there, and numerous android apps cover this market adequately.

 

 

We have not even seen the default avatar for Sansar yet! It will be revealed with the Fashion release which is scheduled for the middle of December. The current avatar being used in Sansar is a placeholder avatar only much like the prim avatars SL had during it's alpha stage. So we'll see what it looks like next month. I'm hopeful!!!

Edited November 28, 2017 by Blush Bravin

[Blush Bravin]

45 minutes ago, Penny Patton said:

With regards to the Catwa head, I feel compelled to bring up how excessively resource intensive their bento heads are. If LL does indeed push to discourage unoptimized content Catwa may find themselves needing to put out an optimization update (which would be extremely simple for them to do) or people using the head may end of jelly dolls to anyone who values their framerates. Here's hoping it's the former.

 

My catwa head is 8318 complexity with Script info: 'neck:0': [5/5] running scripts, 320 KB allowed memory size limit, 0.014085 ms of CPU time consumed. Hardly seems  excessively resource intensive to me.

[Vivienne Schell]

45 minutes ago, Penny Patton said:

Second Life has been around for 15 years now, it could very well be around another 15.

It could be and it would be a shame if it would not. But if Linden Lab seriously is interested in -at least - stopping the downward spiral  there is much more needed than some improvements on the avatar. A lot more.