Does LL want to fix SL

[Vivienne Schell]

51 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

None of that is confirmed by LL.

Oh it is, NWN is the NYT of virtual worlds. And there are more sources which claim the same. The rest is arithmetics. Regarding their MP revenue, look at this:

http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2017/03/second-life-marketplace-linden-lab-revenue.html

Even if people sell things with a value of 180 Million a year in 2017 (hhich is an overly optimistical figure, due to the fact that Linden Lab lost almost half of their core customership since 2011), the commission rate of roughly 4-5 percent max. would not make this an overly significant source of revenue for Linden Lab, compared to their "land" generated revenue. The result of this calculation fits seamlessly into the previously posted calculation.

Eat it, LL is in decline by revenue, and it only can stay profitable by cutting operational costs accordingly - or by attracting new customers while keeping the ones who are left over.. The first is more likely than the second, and probably they actually cut cost by the half. But cutting operational costs alone usually does not lead to better service, more investments or significant improvements in the business universe. It needs dramatic changes elsewhere, and I cannot see these.

Edited November 26, 2017 by Vivienne Schell

[Blaise Glendevon]

On 11/21/2017 at 5:28 AM, femhalf said:

SL is like Frankenstein.  It's a patchwork of a mess.  They can easily solve this mess by releasing new avatars with an applier system.  Appliers are everything in SL now.  You need them for skins, clothing, tattoos, makeup, etc.  If they wanted to go further, they could also release three sets of feet for females;  flat, mid, and high poses.

We addressed this earlier. There is such a variety of body shapes and types being catered to by private designers that whatever system mesh LL could cook up would be profoundly unsatisfactory to most people. And designers who have already found their niches among the extant mesh bodies and heads would have no incentive to cater to the LL body.

[Penny Patton]

1 hour ago, Blaise Glendevon said:

We addressed this earlier. There is such a variety of body shapes and types being catered to by private designers that whatever system mesh LL could cook up would be profoundly unsatisfactory to most people. And designers who have already found their niches among the extant mesh bodies and heads would have no incentive to cater to the LL body.

I disagree with that. If LL presented the SL userbase with a well made system body that could make use of all of the modern features like materials, started all new users with that body and provided people the ability to switch back and forth between old and new system bodies, I'm pretty confident it would become the most common SL body within a couple of years.

The mesh body market we know today exists only because LL neglected to update the old, badly made system bodies. Linden Lab left a vacuum and mesh body makers filled it. This created a lot of problems, including an extremely fractured clothing market. Mesh bodies are frequently over priced and nonsensically restricted to no-mod. Give everyone a free alternative which suits their needs and they're going to go with that. And since everyone will have access to it, that's incentive enough for it designers to create content for it.

Also, keep this in mind: the market is always changing. The most popular designers today are not the same people who were the most popular designers 5 years ago and neither are the same as the popular designers 10 years ago. New designers are always appearing, so there is always someone looking for a new niche to fill.

 

 The real question is, if LL did create new system bodies, would they do it properly or would they find some way to mess it up? But that's a whole other discussion.

[ChinRey]

18 hours ago, Parhelion Palou said:

Second Life was created as a social experiment. Philip Linden (I'll stick to SL names) wanted to see what happens when you put a bunch of people in a world and let them do their thing.

I'm not sure I'm buying that. He may have used that argument to sell the idea of Second Life but I don't think it went any deeper. It seems to me the only vision he had was to make a cool digital playground for himself and his buddies. Just like High Fidelity.

Edited November 26, 2017 by ChinRey

[Pamela Galli]

On 11/23/2017 at 11:19 AM, Alwin Alcott said:

oh yes how dare they, celebrate a special day with their family while Vvienne has a problem.

 It’s not just her, we are hearing from many others that the marketplace seems to be burning down. I understand why people want to have a day off with family, but in my opinion When something like this happens, LL needs all hands on deck — needed several days ago. 

I have logged in to help customers on major holidays, not the entire day, but enough to provide the service they have contracted to receive. 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

10 hours ago, Vivienne Schell said:

Oh it is, NWN is the NYT of virtual worlds. And there are more sources which claim the same. The rest is arithmetics. Regarding their MP revenue, look at this:

http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2017/03/second-life-marketplace-linden-lab-revenue.html

And yet they only report on what they assume LL is doing.. Every article has "estimate, assumption, and guess" all over the place. Why? BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO INFO FROM LL!!! LL stopped releasing what they make from their users. Therefore all of this is a guess. It doesn't matter what they get from land if we have no idea how much they get from MP commission or L$ transaction fees per month. 

Even if people sell things with a value of 180 Million a year in 2017 (hhich is an overly optimistical figure, due to the fact that Linden Lab lost almost half of their core customership since 2011), the commission rate of roughly 4-5 percent max. would not make this an overly significant source of revenue for Linden Lab, compared to their "land" generated revenue. The result of this calculation fits seamlessly into the previously posted calculation. 

Thats still 3 million dollars, just on the MP alone. If users are cashing out 60 mill, as NWN says they are from sale of virtual content, that means the MP sales is over 15 billion L$ a year. 60mill X 250 = 15 billion.. Where exactly are you getting the fact of the core users being cut in half since 2011? And please, facts only, no guesswork from NWN. 

Eat it, LL is in decline by revenue, and it only can stay profitable by cutting operational costs accordingly - or by attracting new customers while keeping the ones who are left over.. The first is more likely than the second, and probably they actually cut cost by the half. But cutting operational costs alone usually does not lead to better service, more investments or significant improvements in the business universe. It needs dramatic changes elsewhere, and I cannot see these.

Until LL comes out with their figures, its still all guesswork.  By the way, all of those figures are from 2011. Notice how there aren't any new figures? They just extrapolate from the old ones. You can't actually do that and present it as fact. But hey, you keep living in that bubble. 

 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

2 hours ago, Penny Patton said:

 The real question is, if LL did create new system bodies, would they do it properly or would they find some way to mess it up? But that's a whole other discussion.

The real question is, what is the benefit og LL doing such? They would create an issue where they are competing directly with creators in SL. They are potentially cutting off revenue from said creators. And would definitely be creating discord among them. I can't see LL doing this. 

[Pamela Galli]

6 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

The real question is, what is the benefit og LL doing such? They would create an issue where they are competing directly with creators in SL. They are potentially cutting off revenue from said creators. And would definitely be creating discord among them. I can't see LL doing this. 

I am on principle against LL competing with creators, but an avatar is a basic requirement -- everyone gets a free one when they sign up. It seems reasonable to make them as easy to use and as attractive as possible to start with -- and as a bonus create a standard for all clothes makers. That seems to me to be a way to increase retention. 

[ChinRey]

48 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Thats still 3 million dollars, just on the MP alone. If users are cashing out 60 mill, as NWN says they are from sale of virtual content, that means the MP sales is over 15 billion L$ a year. 60mill X 250 = 15 billion..

No need to speculate about the gross MP sales volume, we have official and fresh data for that: 6 billions Linden dollars a year, that is about 24 million US dollars.

How much of that revenue merchants take out of Second Life is anybody's guess. Linden Lab takes a little bit less than 5%, some of the income is used to pay for inworld marketing, some for inworld purchases and some for tier.

If we stipulate that 75% of the total MP revenue is converted to US dollars and withdrawn from SL, we get about 18 million USD, with 50%, it's 12 millions.

 

Edited November 26, 2017 by ChinRey

[Phil Deakins]

28 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

I am on principle against LL competing with creators

So am I, but it hasn't stopped them in the past. However, as you said, an avatar body is a basic requirement so it's not the same thing at all.

[Parhelion Palou]

12 hours ago, Penny Patton said:

See, I joined long before M came onto the scene. Under Philip, LL really pushed the "3D internet" narrative and were already courting corporations. Since at least 2005 when I joined to the present (12 years!) LL has been trying for that mainstream appeal. It's dishonest to chalk up SL's shortcomings to "well, they intended it to be a niche product".

I didn't claim that LL intended for SL to be a niche product. M Linden started in 2010, so of course it was Philip who got in on the hype wave in 2006. Corporations were jumping into SL; he saw a good thing and tried for more. Back then the hype said everyone was going to be using virtual worlds. Who'd blame LL for trying to be the world people used? That's pretty much their idea for Sansar; to try to be the go-to place for VR goggle based worlds (or experiences).

You say it as if no one uses the Jira, goes to Office Hour meetings, or has spoken to an actual Linden. Meanwhile we're communicating on a fairly active official forum where even many of the users who do not use those lines of communication do come to vent their frustrations and talk about features they'd like to see.

I didn't say nobody uses Jira, etc. I was talking about the userbase that you claimed to represent ... all several hundred thousand of them. The number of people who actively engage with LL on possible improvements is a tiny fraction of that number, and I'm certain they're not aware of what the userbase wants. There's no way to know. Within the group that does engage with LL there are a lot of different interests who want LL to do a lot of different things. I said that LL has to pick among the requests. They can't do them all.

The rest of your response is pretty much your usual. I'm not saying I disagree with it. But even if LL created a new standard avatar (in addition to the current one), you'd still see really tall people with really short arms because some people like that look. The standard avatar's mesh would break trying to get some of the looks that require specialized mesh bodies (because most normal mesh bodies come apart trying to get huge breasts, huge hips, etc.) There would still be mesh avatars; the new SL avatar would be another choice. BTW, the SL avatar would have to support mesh clothing that fits to the sliders -- the old 5-size business isn't acceptable.

I've had my camera lowered for years now, mostly using the settings you've suggested. I build to what works for me, which means those who use the top-down view or have very tall avatars won't fit in my house. It doesn't bother me ... I don't sell anything so I don't have to meet anyone else's needs. I like having doorknobs at normal heights (instead of at chest-to-head height). I do think LL should make a proper camera placement an option in their viewer. (Or make it the default and have the option to use the old camera.)

 

 

[Parhelion Palou]

2 hours ago, ChinRey said:

I'm not sure I'm buying that. He may have used that argument to sell the idea of Second Life but I don't think it went any deeper. It seems to me the only vision he had was to make a cool digital playground for himself and his buddies. Just like High Fidelity.

Linden Lab started out researching haptics ... they wanted to build a gadget that would let people move around in virtual space. They ended up with something they called "The Rig". Linden World (now SL) was created so they'd have a place to test it. I don't remember why they dropped the hardware aspect ... probably because the technology wasn't there to make it viable or because they couldn't get funding. LL's investors liked the collaborative build capabilites of Linden World, so LL went that direction. Philip Linden did think that SL residents might form a type of government -- being in SL in the early days was similar to a group of people finding themselves on a deserted island, so why not?

I misspoke in calling the original SL a social experiment. It was an experiment with some social aspects. Nobody knew in 2003 if there would be enough people interested in real-time collaborative creation to make SL profitable. At the time 3D content was created by professionals and user interaction was limited to what was designed into the content. (Like Sansar, except the experience creators don't need to be professionals.)

More off-topic than the previous: SL started out as a sandbox. Everything SL is now came from that. LL didn't start out to build a 3D chat room, a roleplay area, sex spaces, educational or commercial areas, art displays, or anything else you can find in SL. They built a starting point. After more than a million people have worked it over, SL is now more things than anybody knows. LL has no way of knowing everything SL is used for. That's one reason SL is so hard to market, or even to describe.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

4 hours ago, Pamela Galli said:

I am on principle against LL competing with creators, but an avatar is a basic requirement -- everyone gets a free one when they sign up. It seems reasonable to make them as easy to use and as attractive as possible to start with -- and as a bonus create a standard for all clothes makers. That seems to me to be a way to increase retention. 

 

3 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

So am I, but it hasn't stopped them in the past. However, as you said, an avatar body is a basic requirement so it's not the same thing at all.

LL gave us all a basic avatar body. System clothing was the standard. Then Slink came along with their mesh body and everyone lost their minds.. LL did NOT create fully mesh avatar bodies. For them to suddenly offer one, would be pointless. They would have to create their own look, or be sued for copyright infringement if it is too close to one already made, script it, rigg it, then make a whole line of mesh clothing that fits only that shape. And give it away for free? When has LL EVER done that much work and given it away for free? You are thinking of TPVs that do all the work and LL takes their work and implements it. 

[Phil Deakins]

Correct me if I'm wrong, Drake, but LL already offers a range of mesh bodies (with heads). Or it may be that they offer one male and one female mesh body, and the avatars are just they way they clothed. Is there something not quite so mesh about the bodies?

 

2 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

They would have to create their own look, or be sued for copyright infringement

I don't think so. If what say is correct, then nobody can now create a new mesh body for the reason you gave, and that simply isn't true. Of course, they'd be wrong create one that looked like an existing one, but, just as there are billions of different real bodies in the world today, there is a long way to go before the look of new mesh bodies runs out Proportions don't matter of course. It's the body detail that matters, and there is a long long way to go yet.

I don't know all the technicalities of clothing mesh bodies, but isn't it correct that, if LL created a generic one (which they may have already done), together with an applier, then the available mesh clothing would be fine? Or it is that the existing mesh clothing is made so that it is fixed to certain skeleton points? Even then, surely much of the existing mesh clothing would work fine, I think.

 

Edited November 26, 2017 by Phil Deakins

[Drake1 Nightfire]

9 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, Drake, but LL already offers a range of mesh bodies (with heads). Or it may be that they offer one male and one female mesh body, and the avatars are just they way they clothed. Is there something not quite so mesh about the bodies?

None of those bodies is scripted, no alpha cuts, no appliers. 

I don't think so. If what say is correct, then nobody can now create a new mesh body for the reason you gave, and that simply isn't true. Of course, they'd be wrong create one that looked like an existing one, but, just as there are billions of different real bodies in the world today, there is a long way to go before the look of new mesh bodies runs out Proportions don't matter of course. It's the body detail that matters, and there is a long long way to go yet.

What i said was, "They would have to create their own look, or be sued for copyright infringement if it is too close to one already made." LL would have to make one that is theirs and theirs alone. 

I don't know all the technicalities of clothing mesh bodies, but isn't it correct that, if LL created a generic one (which they may have already done), together with an applier, then the available mesh clothing would be fine? Or it is that the existing mesh clothing is made so that it is fixed to certain skeleton points? Even then, surely much of the existing mesh clothing would work fine, I think.

Not even a little.. Each mesh body is slightly different from the next. The differences are great enough to warrant specific mesh clothing fitted for each body. A dress fitted for Slink will not work properly with one fitted for Maitreya, for instance. Parts will stick out. Hell, even clothing that is supposedly rigged and fitted to the standard SL body doesn't always fit. 

And again, when has LL EVER done that much work and given it away for free? 

[Coby Foden]

1 hour ago, Phil Deakins said:

I don't know all the technicalities of clothing mesh bodies, but isn't it correct that, if LL created a generic one (which they may have already done), together with an applier, then the available mesh clothing would be fine? Or it is that the existing mesh clothing is made so that it is fixed to certain skeleton points? Even then, surely much of the existing mesh clothing would work fine, I think.

 

Mesh clothing will fit properly only for the mesh body for which it was created. If the designer wants wide customer base then they have to rig their mesh clothes for many different mesh bodies. When I buy some mesh clothing there usually are about ten different items for the same garment made for different bodies. Then I just keep the one which for my body, the others get deleted at once because I have no use for them. Lots of extra work for the designer. If we had excellent system avatar then there would be no need for that extra work for the designers. Make one model only and rig it to the system avatar. Done.

If Linden Lab decided to create a new excellent system avatar, somebody would surely cry "mesh body designers will be out of job and income". Well, I don't think so. Mesh body and head designers are excellent designers. If the mesh body market would start go down (which it surely would do) the designers could use use their skills to design excellent clothes for the new system avatar. Everyone would be a winner this way. Gradually more and more people would start wear the new system avatar and clothes made for it. After some years the present complicated system would be only a bad memory. (Some mesh bodies might still be hanging on for those who would like some special looks.)

[Vivienne Schell]

2 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

And again, when has LL EVER done that much work and given it away for free?

Well, they did some fine landscaping at blake sea. Oh, and Bay City is notable.

It´s the business model, spiderman. They let people create things. And this is what people do, right? SL does not suffer from a lack of content creators, but suffers from corporate mismanagement. Ever did.

[Phoebe Avro]

10 hours ago, Pamela Galli said:

 It’s not just her, we are hearing from many others that the marketplace seems to be burning down. I understand why people want to have a day off with family, but in my opinion When something like this happens, LL needs all hands on deck — needed several days ago. 

I have logged in to help customers on major holidays, not the entire day, but enough to provide the service they have contracted to receive. 

Sl is a 24/7 internationally used platform, so LL need to get off their lazy ass and act like it, during hollidays you have to have cover for 'all' aspects of your business or turn off the grid at those times.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Phoebe Avro

[Phil Deakins]

3 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

And again, when has LL EVER done that much work and given it away for free? 

When they created the whole of Second Life, maybe?

[Drake1 Nightfire]

58 minutes ago, Vivienne Schell said:

Well, they did some fine landscaping at blake sea. Oh, and Bay City is notable.

It´s the business model, spiderman. They let people create things. And this is what people do, right? SL does not suffer from a lack of content creators, but suffers from corporate mismanagement. Ever did.

Terraforming and a sim to walk around in is hardly giving it away for free. 

You are really dense, aren't you? We are talking about LL making a mesh body on par with the ones offered by some of the major creators currently. So, where exactly does your second comment fit that discussion? It sounds like you are insulting me while simultaneously agreeing with my statements.. 

BTW.. Thats Deadpool, not Spidey.. Dumbass. 

13 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

When they created the whole of Second Life, maybe?

And yet, they didn't give that away for free either.. You had to buy a membership at the very start. So.. Wrong again, Phil.

[Penny Patton]

10 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

The real question is, what is the benefit og LL doing such? They would create an issue where they are competing directly with creators in SL. They are potentially cutting off revenue from said creators. And would definitely be creating discord among them. I can't see LL doing this. 

There are several reasons LL Would want to provide a decent system avatar.

The first thing you have to keep in mind is that LL is a business and they want to grow their userbase. Not providing an updated system avatar runs counter to that goal.

•  Starting new users with the system avatar makes for a bad impression to new users. The system avatars were bad when SL was new and they have not aged well. This makes for an awful first impression to a new user, making it harder than it already is to retain new users. This is why LL tried making starter avatars with mesh bodies but they had to abandon it because...
• Mesh avatars are more complicated to use, and SL already has a steep learning curve that keeps many people away. When LL supplied starters with mesh bodies they found it turned a lot of potential new users away because people could not personalize their avatars easily. It's not much better with the mesh bodies one can buy. Being no-mod means you have to rely on the HUDs, there's no standardization, some mesh bodies even have features others don't, and I'm only talking about personalizing your body, it gets even worse with clothing.

There was a time when you could release a brand new shirt and nearly 100% of the SL population could potentially wear that shirt with their avatar. Anyone could walk into your store, buy any clothing you sold, and know it would work with their avatar. This is no longer the case.

• By neglecting to update the system avatars and placing the onus of a decent current gen body on content creators, LL fractured the clothing market. This makes things more difficult for clothing makers because they no longer have that nearly 100% market reach they used to enjoy. It takes an excessive amount of work for a designer to support multiple bodies, so content creators pick and choose which bodies they will support. Sometimes that is dictated by how popular a body is, after all the most popular body will give them the largest potential customer base. Sometimes it's dictated by personal preference, afterall they might not feel like making clothes for a body they won't use.
• This creates difficulty for users, too. Especially new users. You can no longer shop for clothing in SL and simply expect it to fit your avatar. Now you need to keep tract of various factors. Was it made for the body you own? Was it made for the current version of the body you own? Afterall, body makers sometimes release updates that render older clothes unuseable (see the update from rigged to fitmesh, and from fitmesh to bento). If it uses an applier, is it an applier type your body supports?

 Sure, an SL addict who has been around for 5-10 years might adapt to the new normal, but someone new? I know if today was my first day in SL and someone explained all this to me I would say "Screw that noise!", log out and never look back.

•  In addition, creating new system avatars presents LL with an opportunity to correct past mistakes.
• The new system avatars could have more sensible UV wrapping, making it easier for artists to create new, better looking, skins and materials. Not to mention tattoos and system clothing. Supporting materials into the baking process and giving back access to system clothing features that make system clothes not look skin tight (remember when layer based pants could be made to look loose fitting? Can't do that on any mesh body.) would allow for system clothing comparable to mesh clothing in many respects.
•  LL could give the new system avatars an improved system skin interface, allowing users to create decent looking skin using sliders. You'd still need to buy pre-made skins for more unique looks but it would mean a new user could at least look decent straight off of Orientation Island.
• The new system avatars could have better slider weighting, making it possible to create a well porportioned avatar at any size rather than limiting our ability to create good shapes between 5'5" and 6'5". A reason why most men in SL look all stretched out is because they insist on being 8' tall even though it's impossible to create a shape that size and maintain human proportions. For women it's even worse because in creating the original slider weighting a genius at LL decided women have shorter arms than men. All of these problems have contributed to SL's reputation for poor graphics.

The new system avatars could look as good as any individual mesh bodies but be better optimized. Most of the popular mesh bodies were made by talented amateurs who are can make a nice looking body but don't understand why simply cranking up the number of polygons makes their content a large source of lag and framerate drops. The "onion skin" layering system for system clothes amplifies this problem. SL's unreasonably high hardware requirements for the lacking visuals that gets you have always hurt LL's ability to market Second Life.

I'm sure some mesh body makers won't be happy about it (Niche body makers won't be affected. Overweight mesh bodies, muscular mesh bodies, anime and furry body makers, the market for those kinds of bodies will remain the same. They might even get improved tools to make their bodies even better.), but LL has to look at the bigger picture.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Penny Patton

[Penny Patton]

9 hours ago, Parhelion Palou said:

The rest of your response is pretty much your usual.

I repeat a lot of the same things because they're worth repeating. I enjoy a better SL experience because I'm aware of these things, and I share that information to help others get more enjoyment out of SL.

9 hours ago, Parhelion Palou said:

But even if LL created a new standard avatar (in addition to the current one), you'd still see...

So what?

Sure, even if LL provided well made starters, a new system avatar, fixed the appearance editor and implemented every suggestion I've ever made, there would be people with gigantic avatars with bad proportions. There would be people building wastefully and not getting the full value of their land. There would still be people who would choose to use SL's ugly old sky settings.

But so what? Many more people would benefit from the changes. Is it not worth improving the experience for everyone because there will be exceptions who choose to enjoy SL another way? There are still people who use invisiprims, believe it or not.  Does this mean it was a waste of LL's time to invest in avatar masking? Many people still use sculpted prims? Should we abandon mesh?

[Innula Zenovka]

Point of information:  Over the last couple of years (two or three, at least) LL have released several tranches of new system avatars with mesh clothing.    These come in a variety of themes.   Take a look at the Avatar Picker in your viewer, and try the ones on the tabs,  "New Avatars," "Fantasy," and "Classic"  ("Vampires" and "People" are the rather older all-mesh ones, which never seemed to me a good idea, since they confused new users no end).

These more recent avatars are, as I understand it, made by the Linden Department of Public Works -- that is, established resident content creators who also work as contractors for LL -- aka the Moles,    

 

Edited November 27, 2017 by Innula Zenovka

[Chase01]

Hypothetically, even if LL decided to make a strong move into this market; designers would still be forced to rig for the current bodies they support, while also ensuring comparability with the new system body. That could potentially compound the issue further.

Designers are going to follow the money, and while a free body has the potential to reach a larger audience; if it isn't comparable in terms of features and quality, people will still gravitate to the aftermarket and with that, the cycle continues. It becomes yet another body to support, or not support.

I think if they did another pass and tried to make a better quality avi (something that is more comparable to what is available) and give those users more LL made options, that would be sufficient to improve the new user experience without burdening designers and impeding on their business. If those users then want to customize further, they can look to community made options.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Chase01

[Chase01]

10 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

I don't know all the technicalities of clothing mesh bodies, but isn't it correct that, if LL created a generic one (which they may have already done), together with an applier, then the available mesh clothing would be fine? Or it is that the existing mesh clothing is made so that it is fixed to certain skeleton points? Even then, surely much of the existing mesh clothing would work fine, I think.

Appliers only work for applier based clothing, not mesh clothing. Since each mesh body has a unique skeletal structure, the clothing must be rigged for each brand and or model. Without that, fitment suffers. The skeletal structure is the reason why shapes look differently on each brand of mesh body. The rigging is supposed to ensure its fitment.