Does LL want to fix SL

[Madelaine McMasters]

10 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

You obviously do not remember the early days of either of those businesses.  Or even semi-recent times with eBay who managed to have 10 outages from Jan - April 2014 - i.e within a 4 month time frame (and early 2014 is definitely long after their early small company days).

In the last few months, I've had perhaps a half dozen Amazon deliveries, using Amazon couriers, miss their ship date. One of them was a same day delivery. Although it was "out for delivery" it never arrived and I was told it would take another three days for them to finally get it to me. When I inquired why they couldn't just cancel the current shipment and send me a replacement "same day" for arrival only one day later than planned, I was told the system couldn't handle that automatically and that I'd have to order the replacement myself, then return the other package when it arrived. I offered to cancel the existing order, so they could return the item via their courier rather than pay UPS for the return, but was told "once the package leaves our hands, it's out of our control, it can't be cancelled". When I noted that it was an Amazon courier delivery, and so still in their hands, I was told "that's not the way it works." When I said "the way it works doesn't work" I was politely told, more or less, to go away.

There's no shortage of incompetence in the world today, yet it's amazing what we're able to do.

Edited November 25, 2017 by Madelaine McMasters

[Vivienne Schell]

44 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Do you mean like the functional, reliable commerce database that shuttled my six pound back of popcorn back and forth four times between UPS depots in New Jersey and Wisconsin until my phone call broke the endless chain of system errors?

At least your popcorn did not get deleted.

44 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

my package was to arrive (signature required) between noon and 4PM, only to have it arrive a 9AM, while I was having breakfast next door

Well, that´s world  record compared to the three days of LL  "investigation" on the database issue.

Edited November 25, 2017 by Vivienne Schell

[Tari Landar]

12 minutes ago, Vivienne Schell said:

Btw., are you an employee at Linden Lab? Are you a buddy of someone there? Or what?

. Nope, I'm not an employee of LL, if I was, I'd probably be able to afford better health care at this point, I'd also probably get paid to further my education. I can't really do that when I'm my own employer, now can I?  I'm not a LL kissbutt either, I'm just intelligent, and I possess common sense, patience, and the ability to see when the sky is actually falling, versus a simple rain shower.  

I can, and have many times,  express my dislike for how something is currently being employed(or not, as the case may be), and basic functionality, as far as LL is concerned,  without spewing a bunch of other garbage that makes no sense at all because I feel it will better my own argument and make me seem more intelligent than I am. When I don't understand something, I don't pretend the opposite is true, and I'm always willing to point out my own ignorance on a topic.  LL does a whole heck of a lot wrong, I have never once said they don't. There is a TON they could have done better, and probably just as much now that they still can do better. 

A database issue (even if it *is* one) that temporarily messes up SOME merchant's (again, I'm included here) MP stores, isn't even on the same planet as most database issues, especially data breaches, which all of the companies you've described(which are in no way comparable to sl) have experienced, repeatedly. So, I hardly find it worthy of half the posts you've made on the subject...especially when you don't know what you're talking about, lol. 

[Vivienne Schell]

2 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

There's no shortage of incompetence in the world today, yet it's amazing what we're able to do.

True that.

[Vivienne Schell]

4 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

So, I hardly find it worthy of half the posts you've made on the subject...especially when you don't know what you're talking about,

Well, then simply don´t respond.

Oh, here is what I am talking about.

https://status.secondlifegrid.net/incidents/nylvk04mplfd

Linden Lab talks about it since three days apparently. To no avail so far.

Edited November 25, 2017 by Vivienne Schell

[Drake1 Nightfire]

2 hours ago, Vivienne Schell said:

No one has gto beg for a functional, reliiable commerce database.

Imagine the Amazon ior Ebay or Facebook databases had been - sluggishly - messed up like this by only 0.01 %. Do you ACTUALLY think that someone there would go for  a holiday, without customer notification, without  customer support and some lame and inaccurate if not false two line explaination? Do you actiually think that? Weöö, if you do not think of this you are right, because it DOES NOT HAPPEN there. They simply DO NOT mess up their commerce database.

 

Did you know the 2 day shipping is not actually a guarantee at Amazon? You do not get the items 2 days from when you order, you get them 2 day from when it ships. But I bet that's not what anyone thinks when they hear Free 2 day shipping, do they? I have yet to get a single item shipped and delivered from Amazon within 2 days, but i still pay for Prime membership. Why? Because it still is better than not having it. Kind of like the users of SL. We keep using it and forgiving the bugs and issues because it's better than the alternative. 

[Madelaine McMasters]

4 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

I possess common sense, patience, and the ability to see when the sky is actually falling, versus a simple rain shower.  

Oh, c'mon. What ability allows one to see a sky actually falling? Surely it's not common sense.

;-).

[Tari Landar]

2 minutes ago, Vivienne Schell said:

Well, then simply don´t respond.

Oh, here is what I am talking about.

https://status.secondlifegrid.net/incidents/nylvk04mplfd

Linden Lab talks about it since three days apparently. To no avail so far.

Because they can't fix it, yet, but are looking into doing so...which was my point, lmao. Give them time to do so, nothing is instant when it comes to issues like this. Seriously, you really should look into some issues other companies have had, and how long they *really* take to remedy. Even in the cases where they do notify the public(or, in the case of places like Ebay and Amazon, the merchants get notified), they still don't tell everyone how long it *actually takes to fix. There are all kinds of reasons why, but the main reason..is to stop chicken littles from getting out of hand. 

[Madelaine McMasters]

1 minute ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Did you know the 2 day shipping is not actually a guarantee at Amazon? You do not get the items 2 days from when you order, you get them 2 day from when it ships. But I bet that's not what anyone thinks when they hear Free 2 day shipping, do they? I have yet to get a single item shipped and delivered from Amazon within 2 days, but i still pay for Prime membership. Why? Because it still is better than not having it. Kind of like the users of SL. We keep using it and forgiving the bugs and issues because it's better than the alternative. 

So you've never seen an estimated ship date in two days? I generally order in the evening before going to bed and receive my items less than 48 hours later. I can place same day orders as late as noon and still get the thing that evening. If I place my order before 8AM, it arrives around lunchtime.

[Tari Landar]

1 minute ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Oh, c'mon. What ability allows one to see a sky actually falling? Surely it's not common sense.

;-).

I can't tell you that!!  Goodness woman are you trying to get us both killed? 

[LittleMe Jewell]

2 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

 I have yet to get a single item shipped and delivered from Amazon within 2 days

Bummer.  I actually do get the majority of my items within 2 days of order.  If I order before noon, most of the time the item will ship that day and then I'll get it 2 days later.  If I order after noon, then best case is going to be 3 days.

[Madelaine McMasters]

12 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

Goodness woman are you trying to get us both killed? 

Nooooooo!!!

Just you.

Edited November 25, 2017 by Madelaine McMasters

[Vivienne Schell]

11 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Because it still is better than not having it. Kind of like the users of SL. We keep using it and forgiving the bugs and issues because it's better than the alternative. 

Yeah, question is if this is enough to keep it going. I doubt it. Look at Grid Survey, the decline of overall user numbers and revenue...

On the other hand: I remember times when issues like this one caused a hundred pages of open public riot at this and "the other" forum. And it did not change much for the better.

Edited November 25, 2017 by Vivienne Schell

[Drake1 Nightfire]

6 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

So you've never seen an estimated ship date in two days? I generally order in the evening before going to bed and receive my items less than 48 hours later. I can place same day orders as late as noon and still get the thing that evening. If I place my order before 8AM, it arrives around lunchtime.

 

4 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Bummer.  I actually do get the majority of my items within 2 days of order.  If I order before noon, most of the time the item will ship that day and then I'll get it 2 days later.  If I order after noon, then best case is going to be 3 days.

I usually place my orders at 6am.. Never have i gotten them within 2 days. I see them as having an estimated delivery of 2 days, but they never get there in that time. My favorite was the hat i ordered for my daughter for her birthday a week before the party. I got an email later that day saying the item was out of stock, yet that wasn't listed on the page when i ordered(it wasnt even a "only 10 left or anything"). So yeah.. Amazon plays with shipping. Still better than not having Prime though.. 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

2 minutes ago, Vivienne Schell said:

Yeah, question is if this is enough to keep it going. I doubt it. Look at Grid Survey, the decline of overall user numbers and revenue...

On the other hand: I remember times when issues like this one caused a hundred pages of open public riot at this and "the other" forum. And it did not change much for the better.

the numbers of concurrent users has plateaued for the past 6 months. It has been going on since the start, so yeah, I think it will keep it going. I notice you haven't left over it.. 

[Vivienne Schell]

6 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

the numbers of concurrent users has plateaued for the past 6 months

Fingers crossed. Tho, their cash cow are not concurrent users, but sim/land owners and their sims. And these are still in slow, but steady decline.

Edited November 25, 2017 by Vivienne Schell

[Drake1 Nightfire]

6 minutes ago, Vivienne Schell said:

Fingers crossed. Tho, their cash cow are not concurrent users, but sim/land owners and their sims. And these are still in slow, but steady decline.

And where is your proof of that little tidbit? You know how much they make on the MP per month? Or on L$ sales? 

[Vivienne Schell]

13 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

I notice you haven't left over it.. 

They did worse than that,. tho I find it .. scaring. And no, I won´t leave this mess until someone kicks me out or turns off the final windlight. But this will not keep me from rioting.

[Vivienne Schell]

2 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

You know how much they make on the MP per month? Or on L$ sales? 

Yes.

[Vivienne Schell]

15 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

And where is your proof of that little tidbit?

http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2017/04/second-life-annual-revenue-sansar.html

[Tari Landar]

56 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Nooooooo!!!

Just you.

I knew it!

Someone's always trying to bump me off...

[Penny Patton]

7 hours ago, Parhelion Palou said:

M's time with LL was when things really went downhill. LL got rid of staff, including many who were good for SL. Things have been improving since M's time; at least LL is listening to us again.

See, I joined long before M came onto the scene. Under Philip, LL really pushed the "3D internet" narrative and were already courting corporations. Since at least 2005 when I joined to the present (12 years!) LL has been trying for that mainstream appeal. It's dishonest to chalk up SL's shortcomings to "well, they intended it to be a niche product".

7 hours ago, Parhelion Palou said:

@Penny Patton: What features has the userbase begged for? Most of the userbase barely knows LL exists. They don't read the blogs or these forums and certainly don't know about Jira. To be generous, I'll guess that 0.5% of the userbase deals with LL outside of buying/selling Lindens and paying tier. Some of them request new features, but that 0.5% represents a lot of different factions that want different things. LL isn't a big company; only a few requests can be satisfied. I suspect the only feature the userbase in general wants is no lag (and free land).

You say it as if no one uses the Jira, goes to Office Hour meetings, or has spoken to an actual Linden. Meanwhile we're communicating on a fairly active official forum where even many of the users who do not use those lines of communication do come to vent their frustrations and talk about features they'd like to see.

I could list features like avatar masking, rigged mesh and animated mesh all of which did have vocal support in all of those venues and yet took years to see proper implementation because LL's official stance was that they did not believe these features were worth implementing at all. Yes, we got them eventually, but only because some of us hounded LL for years. Or features such as proper NPCs, avatar posing tools, and simply finishing the promised features we were supposed to get when windlight went live in 2007 such as volumetric clouds and the ability to share windlight settings as inventory. Hell, landowners were very vocal about wanting parcel windlight controls back then, we're finally getting it but it has taken over 10 years now. Again, LL's response to the demand was "We don't believe you REALLY want it."

Let's talk about "free land" and getting rid of lag. Simply addressing known SL issues can deliver on both.

Do you know the main source of lag and other performance issues in SL? I do. I've known since I first joined in 2005 and, along with other content creators with enough real world experience in content creation for realtime 3D environments, have been pushing LL to introduce tools that would solve this problem. Unoptimized content. You can't upload a huge, overly complex mesh model, slather it in hundreds of MB of textures, and not expect it to cause problems. Every texture map you see needs to be downloaded and then held in your video memory. And there are individual avatars out there wearing almost a gigabyte's worth of textures. Yes, you read that correctly, nearly a GB of textures you need to download and hold in memory when that avatar wanders into your draw distance. You want to know why it takes so long for things to rez in SL? Why sims sometimes freeze completely for a few seconds every time someone enters the sim? Why textures are constantly going blurry, rezzing, then going blurry again? There's your answer! And this is the type of problem LL could have circumvented altogether from the beginning if they'd only had graphic designers onboard helping them to guide development of content creation tools. Optimizing content for SL is not difficult at all, it's just that no one does it because LL doesn't show why it's necessary, doesn't provide tools to help people do it effectively, and at times even discourages optimization. 

If LL had addressed this issue even before mesh import was added, the lag we experience in SL would be nothing near as bad as it is now. Everything would rez faster. Everyone would have higher framerates and many more people would be able turn on features like ALM, shadows, motion blur, lense flares, etcetera. We'd likely even have more OpenGL features implemented in SL than we do currently.

Now, about land, did you realize the average SL landowner doesn't use 3/4th of the land they own? Now, they don't literally let it sit there empty and unused, but it's wasted none the less. The issue is perspective and relative scale. How large or small anything, including land space, appears to you is directly tied to the size of your avatar and the placement of your camera.

Giant 7 to 9' tall avatars are typical for many in SL because that's how large most of the starter avatars have been and the height displayed in the appearance editor is way off, a known bug LL has not fixed because they don't think it's important. Even the default new shape is huge, and it takes more work than most people realize to scale an avatar's size up or down by even a few inches and not wind up with a squashed or stretched looking body. You cannot resize land, so the larger your avatar is the smaller your land is relative to you.

The SL default camera also makes everything appear smaller, more claustrophobic. Simply moving the camera lower, closer to eye level, makes SL appear much larger, more spacious. It's also more immersive, which is why nearly every third person game since 2004 has used camera placement very similar to that shown in the link.

 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

2 hours ago, Vivienne Schell said:

http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2017/04/second-life-annual-revenue-sansar.html

That is all guesswork... None of that is confirmed by LL.. And nowhere does it show how much they make from MP sales and L$ transaction fees.. Soooo, how is that fact?

[Innula Zenovka]

2 hours ago, Vivienne Schell said:

http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2017/04/second-life-annual-revenue-sansar.html

Perhaps I'm missing the point, but that link leads to an article that provides the following calculation:

Quote

 [LL's revenue from tier is] around $36 million a year. The company has told me before that tier payments account for about 80% of total revenue (the rest earned from monthly Premium accounts and other sources). Assuming that's still the case, we're safe estimating Linden Lab now earns around $50 million, give or take.

It is completely silent on the subject of how much LL earn from either the marketplace or from commissions on Lindex transactions.    I can't see that they make any money on the marketplace, or not directly -- it's mostly a L$ sink.   They need the marketplace, because it's so convenient for creators and the creators' customers, but I can't believe it's a profit centre for LL.

[Penny Patton]

3 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

That is all guesswork... None of that is confirmed by LL.. And nowhere does it show how much they make from MP sales and L$ transaction fees.. Soooo, how is that fact?

It's solid evidence that land ownership income for LL has seen a substantial decline and I don't imagine that land ownership is a marginal income stream for LL.

As for whether the bulk of LL's income is from the marketplace or land ownership, well, look at their approach to monetizing Sansar. Apparently in this video Ebbe Linden has stated that they feel land in SL costs too much and that they wanted to decrease the cost of land in Sansar by increasing what they take from Sansar marketplace sales. If that statement was truthful but LL were really raking in so much more of their income from the SL marketplace they'd have been able to reduce SL land costs long ago. Full disclosure, I could not bring myself to sit through the whole video so if someone else wants to find the exact quote to give some clarification on that I'm sure it would be appreciated.