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Another mesh vs. non-mesh thread.


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Ok, I know I know, the horse is dead stop beating on it, but actually I don't want to discuss which is better or what people use, or any of that. I am curious if there are and actual statistics on what percentage of people use mesh, and if such statistics are lacking what people think about what those percentages might be. It seems to me it is a lot like real life, you hang out in the spots where the trendy people hang out and it is easy to imagine the whole world is a trendy person, then you go into Walmart and you realize that no, the whole world isn't. I have been in sims where everyone is mesh and looks fabulous, and other sims where I feel like it's 2AM at Walmart. Obviously all those people in those sims running around picking up .05L coins hoping to get a whole Linden are not spending thousands on a mesh avi. So anyway, overall, just how many people do use mesh avis?

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There aren't any statistics and probably never will be. But I think it's wrong to think of it as people who want to be trendy. For kid avatars, I think most kinds use mesh because the avatar shape doesn't scale down far enough to look human. I feel like the same is true for a lot of other people; they want to look human, rather than trendy.

There's also a difference in how people play SL. Some want a a good looking simulation or decent representation of some identity for any reason. Others don't really care what their avatar looks like because that's not important to them  Maybe they just use SL like a chatroom. Maybe they like to look around different sims but not themselves. Maybe they realize that, once fully clothed, very few aspects of a mesh avatar can be seen anyways and thus don't really care.

Everyone plays SL for a different reason and uses different kinds of avatars for different reasons. It would be wildly inaccurate to assume that people only do it to be trendy or a fashionista.

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Well trendy was meant just as an example of how things can appear diffent in different groups. I could just as easily used Trump supporters, and compared how many one might.find at an NRA meeting as compared with a meeting of The NAACP. The fact is, and we have seen it here in the forums, that there are people who question whether non-mesh Avis even have a future in SL. I am cureosity if mesh is even a majority. 

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9 hours ago, Talligurl said:

The fact is, and we have seen it here in the forums, that there are people who question whether non-mesh Avis even have a future in SL. I am cureosity if mesh is even a majority. 

Non mesh avatars aren't going anywhere, as we've seen in these very forums. I and others keep pointing out that when you're clothed, most of your avatar is orobably alphaed out, whether it's a mesh or system avatar.

Non mesh clothing? That's definitely going the way of prim-dinosaurs.

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13 minutes ago, HarrisonMcKenzie said:

Non mesh clothing? That's definitely going the way of prim-dinosaurs.

If you mean prim clothing i would agree with you. If you are referring to system or applier clothing then you are dead wrong. With all of the different mesh bodies out there, applier clothing is more popular than ever. Especially since Omega works with 99% of them. 

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I used to be pretty reluctant when it came to mesh,manly because when I was first hearing about it,everything was static..

Once I tried out a couple of the bodies and got used to the appliers,it wasn't too bad really..just a lot of lacking in options of clothes..

It was like finding a lot of the same meshes but different textures at different stores..

 

Since I came back recently,I'm really impressed with how far things have come along..

I think about just the skirts alone in system clothes and even with the sculpties..having to do all these work arounds that just didn't look right from certain angles..

Now I just throw on a skirt  or a jacket  or boots or hair and I'm off and running.. No sizing or tweaking other than doing what color or texture I want from the huds that came with..

 

I would think the numbers are increasing to mesh more and more, the more user friendly it gets..

I'm really impressed with it compared to even last year..

 

Edited by Ceka Cianci
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I was reluctant to go to a mesh head, but the thing that sold me was my nose.......

System avatars had difficulty doing non-deforming noses (especially small noses) and in photography - a mesh-head nose is MUCH easier to shoot, get good lighting effect - its just shoots better. Same for mesh eyes - better control for photography.

I stayed with a Lelutka "Stella" head until late yesterday, when I made the jump to a Catwa Bento head.  I am still tweaking, but using the sliders gives it that "classic head" feel and the range-of-emotion you can animate is also a plus for photography.

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3 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

If you mean prim clothing i would agree with you. If you are referring to system or applier clothing then you are dead wrong. With all of the different mesh bodies out there, applier clothing is more popular than ever. Especially since Omega works with 99% of them. 

The system (most likely wisely) didn't let me quote the quote within the quote, so the above response is to this"

  3 hours ago, HarrisonMcKenzie said:

Non mesh clothing? That's definitely going the way of prim-dinosaurs.

 

ANYWAY --

I have had a mesh body for almost two and a half years and a mesh head for about two years (Lelutka was about the only choice back then but still working for me).  There are a couple of reasons to think about a mesh body and going along with that a mesh head.

 

Body:  more and more top creators are ONLY making clothes for mesh bodies (not standard sizing mesh). I blog and get a lot of samples and many now only have Maitreya or the top three -- Maitreya, Belleza and Slink.  So it is getting more difficult to get nice mesh clothing in standard sizing for legacy avatars.   The quote above is confusing because APPLIERS are ONLY for mesh bodies :D. Appliers do not work on legacy avatars. For that you need the original texture garments which show up as blue pants and red shirts (hoping that is still correct as I don't have any of those now).  So again, harder and harder to find nice clothes to buy OR for free with a legacy body.

There will always be folks making the older style clothes -- well at least for the next five years or so I think, but even many alts have mesh bodies these days. 

 

Heads have always been another issue -- but even that is changing.  I get the argument against mesh heads, the not being able to be individual. But with a big selection of skin appliers which make the heads look so very different and now with Bento -- well you don't end up looking just like someone else. Aside from the standard avatar nose issue and photography (which I so agree with) there is the skin matching issue. Skin appliers typically don't match the "underneath" body texture and so you get a line even when using the "same" skin made by the same creator. I am guessing that this is because the meshes (the legacy avatar IS mesh too in a 3D sense) take the texture differently. So unless you want to wear a choker all the time covering that line, you need a mesh head :D.

 

As time goes on I predict more and more creators dropping their legacy avatar items simply because the audience will continue to shift. Honestly, the folks that spend the most money on clothes already have mesh bodies. That is very obvious from visiting any shopping venue and watching those bodies rez. Not all retailers will MAKE their own mesh of course as learning is a big undertaking. So templates will fill in for the folks that don't want to spend the effort on their hobby. Most all of the "career" clothes makers have been on the mesh body bandwagon for awhile now. 

 

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Chic Aeon said:

So unless you want to wear a choker all the time covering that line, you need a mesh head :D.

 

I even bought new skin with Omega to try to get rid of that line, demo after demo all make it look like I just got rescued from the gallows. I'll quit trying to get rid of that now. Thank you for posting that.

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49 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

Skin appliers typically don't match the "underneath" body texture and so you get a line even when using the "same" skin made by the same creator. I am guessing that this is because the meshes (the legacy avatar IS mesh too in a 3D sense) take the texture differently. So unless you want to wear a choker all the time covering that line, you need a mesh head :D.

 

If you're on firestorm use a windlight setting such as *Canimod. Sometimes it's your windlight setting creating weird shadows.

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The mesh situation for male avatars is much uglier. It's not that adoption is so far behind females (although it may be, somewhat), but there are at least two market leaders with astonishingly primitive products. Maybe they're so ridiculously expensive that they have customer lock-in by virtue of inflicted poverty. Or maybe it's just that the customers don't realize how primitive their mesh avatars are, compared to the more modern competition. I won't name names here, but I'll just say that writing off as sunk cost a Three Letter Acronym mesh in favor of a more recent market entrant was the only thing that kept me wearing a mesh avatar at all.

That said, even those more advanced male mesh avatars are still (almost all) no-mod, which is simply inexcusable. There are so many things I'd want to script about any mesh avatar I'd wear -- if only I could.

I know it's wrong to hate somebody for being an idiot -- it's really not the idiot's fault for being such an idiot -- but pushing the limits are those particular idiots who decided their mesh avatar products should be no-mod.

They can just rot in Sansar.

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6 hours ago, Annika Velde said:

If you're on firestorm use a windlight setting such as *Canimod. Sometimes it's your windlight setting creating weird shadows.

LOL. Well  thanks but having to use a particular Windlight setting (note my moniker tag) really doesn't fix the issue and pretty much negates creative efforts. We need skins that look good and MATCH in any Windlight :D.    That might be helpful for some folks who don't care how others see them and just want a nice profile picture though!

 

 

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1 minute ago, Chic Aeon said:

LOL. Well  thanks but having to use a particular Windlight setting (note my moniker tag) really doesn't fix the issue and pretty much negates creative efforts. We need skins that look good and MATCH in any Windlight :D.

The neck edge is caused by the normals and there's not much to do about it really. Using a big sun windlight will elimnate the problem simply by washing out all shading but as you say, it's hardly an ideal solution.

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5 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

LOL. Well  thanks but having to use a particular Windlight setting (note my moniker tag) really doesn't fix the issue and pretty much negates creative efforts. We need skins that look good and MATCH in any Windlight :D.    That might be helpful for some folks who don't care how others see them and just want a nice profile picture though!

 

 

As a photographer lighting is everything for me! I have noticed various skins have this issue but it still stands that shadows can create unwanted effects. This is why so many people still wear face lights even though keeping your wind light at a certain setting can be beneficial and negate the need for one.  

I think at this time I have about 10 good skins from various stores that do not require a specific wind light setting. 

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16 minutes ago, Annika Velde said:

As a photographer lighting is everything for me! I have noticed various skins have this issue but it still stands that shadows can create unwanted effects. This is why so many people still wear face lights even though keeping your wind light at a certain setting can be beneficial and negate the need for one.  

I think at this time I have about 10 good skins from various stores that do not require a specific wind light setting. 

Yes, but keeping YOUR Windlight at a certain setting (and of course I have my favorite everyday custom setting) only fixes things in YOUR viewer, not everyone else's. Windlight is viewer side, not server side as it is on some platforms :D. Hence I will keep with my matching mesh to mesh comment.   And honestly I have tried with some matching skins (legacy head with applier for body) and didn't find  one Windlight that looked good. So a choker was needed if you wanted to use that skin.  

I guess you were just luckier with the skins than I have been. Good for you. 

 

Edited by Chic Aeon
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2 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

 

 

Idk if you meant for it to or not but your comments came off as quite snarky and I really don't understand why. I wasn't attacking you, I wasn't offering a fix all, I was just adding to a conversation as that's what forums are for. 

I wasn't stating that I've found skins that work to brag, I was stating that I've found skins to express that it is possible to find some you just have to dig sometimes.

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Well, mesh avis and clothes are nice. One of the main advantages is that their shapes do not rez so well at crowded sims, so that the annoying "grey people" phenomen of the old times does not occur that often anymore.

And hell, the stuff is great for the economy. And what´s good for the economy is good for Linden Lab and what´s good for Linden Lab is good for Second Life!

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2 minutes ago, Vivienne Schell said:

One of the main advantages is that their shapes do not rez so well at crowded sims, so that the annoying "grey people" phenomen of the old times does not occur that often anymore.

Yes and with mesh bodies you get to see a lot of nude avatars even at G rated places. ^_^

There are really only two things I absolutely don't like about mesh bodies. One of them is that I've lost at least four of my best SL friends because of mesh bodies. They were all old-timers who loved Second Life and held on as long as they could but in the end, their computers simply couldn't handle the added load so they ahd no other choice than to leave.

That brings me to Talligurl's original question, how many SL'ers use mesh bodies. I don't know but judging by how reluctant the four I know about were to leave, I suspect there are still quite a few people in SL who don't use mesh bodies simply because they can't.

As for the economy, at least two of the four I knew were premium members and they both had and paid tier for quite a bit more than the 512 that comes with the membership.

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Yeah, Chin, and we are back to philosophy. Hard to tell if mesh really helped Second Life, or not. I could claim that it did, because Second Life is STILL alive and kicking. I could claim it did not, because Second Life shrunk pretty much since "The Mesh" was introduced.

But face it, you cannot even log into most of the more advanced, popular online games on a laptop or a five years old computer these days. Beauty costs hardware. And in my opinion Second Life renders comparibly well on a modern midrange PC with a decent graphics card.

Certainly less demanding environments, like Minecraft (extreme), or IMVU (moderate), are much more mainstream compatible as the "meshed up" Second Life is, but that´s another story.

Edited by Vivienne Schell
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Trying to think of the best analogy on mesh in SL. Mesh made SL avatars look better, it made furniture and pretty much everything else look good and allow for more items per land. At the same time it decreased creativity and limited choice. It truly felt like your world your imagination with prims and system avatars, even if it didnt look the best. Mesh made SL go from a vision of the future to just another platform to have 3d objects.

I still like SL. I just think it might have gone another way. 

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It did not make things look "better", but more "realistic".

Maybe the audience has changed, Bree. In 2006 everyone was busy with dropping and torturing prims all over the place, texturing them, scripting and making at least SOMETHING out of them. I remember sandboxes full of the most out-of-space virtual stuff i ever saw in my life. It was like pop art or art brute going interactive 3D. In 2017 most are busy with shopping and polishing their supermodel clone avatar and cladding it ino the most fashionable outfit. While shaping their sims and parcels into some "realistic" looking RL copy. What´s better? i don´t know, but the good about Second Life is that you still can drop, torture, script and make something out of prims and use Ruth. If you want.

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I loved to make things in SL when I was in-world. The sandbox platform I was in felt like a blank piece of paper. I suppose what I expected in SL's future was a transformative set of prim tools. Not just... go use blender. I like blender, I've made things but it's clunky. I had to watch a few lessons to make simple things. With prims, boom, I made a car. When I first tried Google's Sketchup, boom, I made a fully furnished house.

It must be really really difficult to make a simple and intuitive 3d design tool because I havent seen it. Sketchup was good but limited. If there was such a tool everyone would be using it. It would be the key to a true SL2.

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I agree. I am not coder enough to comment on the options of further development, but it certainly would  be cool to "merge" a linkset into one mesh, bevel edges and to have a better mapping and some more advanced features.

The SL editor is a highly underrated, pretty innovative creativity tool. There isn´t much missing. And basically, Second Life still is built on a solid prim ground. Take away the prim or replace the SL editor for something supposed to be more "easy to handle", and Second Life would be dead within a year.

Edited by Vivienne Schell
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